Atheism and The Occult; Satanism and Chaos Magick

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DazPetty's picture
Atheism and The Occult; Satanism and Chaos Magick

Hi all,

So I'm an atheist and I have always enjoyed the mythology of the occult.

Unfortunately I've often found that atheism contradicts some things in the occult, even though I specifically try to veer to the side of the occult that is atheist friendly. The school of Satanism and it's followers never really gelled well with me, but lately I've been interested in Chaos Magick.

Chaos magick took some great steps in bridging the occult into the atheist world as dieties and gods and spoken of as "thought-forms" a fairly apt description for the reality of the situation. I would agree that we could just say that all gods and dieties are imaginary, but people often have a tendency to link imagination to powerlessness.

As an artist, magical practice has been about creating change within myself, experiencing new ideas and opening my imagination in new areas. I particularly like Sigil magic as a means to summon and store emotional experience. When the aim and the means of a magical practice are both largely imaginary or mental, as in the case of mystical experiences or self-direction, debates over whether or not magick works have no meaning.

I've been reading a book called"Liber Null Psychonaut" as it was recommended and seems to be in the right direction, the author has gone off on some "spooky talk" discussing things such as aether and kia, but there is some good information in there a little bit closer to reality.

I'm wondering if any one else in the Atheist community can recommend Occult Authors, books or groups that tend to stay away from spooky-talk, astrology and other non-sense.

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Nyarlathotep's picture
I only have a tiny amount of

I only have a tiny amount of experience with it:
I have a friend at work who comes to me every once in a while with some crazy new book/website he has totally bought into. One day he came to me with a bunch of claims about Chaos Magick and some silly equations about its effects on probability. The sad thing is, even accepting the equations at face value (probably not a good idea), they disagreed with the claims in the accompanying literature. My guess at the time was that the equations were only there to provide a veneer of being 'scientific' as part of a snow job/pseudo-science.

Although I can't be sure this is what you are referring to when you say "Chaos Magick" (although I do remember this was the exact odd spelling used in the material I was given).

ThePragmatic's picture
My take on this is that

My take on this is that mystery, secret knowledge and rituals seems to have an alluring effect on many of us. When I was a confused non-christian, I felt an interest in the occult. But it was just more empty hogwash.

It has its place, just like vampires, aliens, the force, parallel worlds and so on, as entertainment in science fiction books, movies, games, etc.

DazPetty's picture
I think it is unfortunate

I think it is unfortunate that the Occult and Magick has so much religious and pseudo-scientific non-sense mixed in with it.

Most of the time all a person really needs is a change within themselves and their attitudes in order to change their life, love spells, rituals for prosperity etc are all about removing sub-conscious barriers, a correct mindset can even improve your health, outlook and posture. When people try to bring things they don't understand like quantum physics or other hocus pocus into magick I think they're just proving their own stupidity.

I think it's high-time that the Occult and philosophical Buddhism was made more palatable to the Atheist reader. It would radically improve the "Occult Sciences" in so much as I can call it a science, if psychology can be called a science then I see no reason why the occult cannot be a science.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Daz - "I think it is

Daz - "I think it is unfortunate that the Occult and Magick has so much religious and pseudo-scientific non-sense mixed in with it."

Sadly I think it is the nature of the beast.

DazPetty's picture
Nyarlathotep, although I

Nyarlathotep, although I agree with you, I do think there are diamonds in the rough there that we need to pickup and put on display. If you've read Sam Harris' books, Waking Up and The Illusion of Free Will, then you will probably get the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Sam Harris is clearly a great hero of modern atheism and he has clearly picked up the diamonds in the rough from many subjects surrounding meditation, Buddhism and spiritual experience. I think there are still many diamonds out there, especially in the realm of the occult, approaching it with a totally sterile mindset might result in something tasteless and awkward like NLP "neuro-linguistic-programming" and the self-hypnosis crowd, but I think there could be something great if the correct language is used.

Stu. K.'s picture
I remember when I was 13 or

I remember when I was 13 or so, I was laying in bed, and was trying to download a game on my phone and was taking forever. So I tried following the Devil for a few minutes to see if my download speeds would get faster. They didn't :{

This is funny that you posted this, because sometime not that long ago, I thought of "is it possible to do magic spells of all sorts BY science. Would science allow some of these things to be possible?) How about using the force? Picking up water with magic and splashing it at somebody that's annoying you. The possibilites are endless :o! Can't wait to hear more answers, and sorry I didn't really contribute to this thread.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Stu - "So I tried following

Stu - "So I tried following the Devil for a few minutes to see if my download speeds would get faster. They didn't"

See this was your first mistake: if you want to develop some supernatural beliefs you shouldn't test them. :)
----------------------
Stu - "is it possible to do magic spells of all sorts BY science. Would science allow some of these things to be possible?) How about using the force? Picking up water with magic and splashing it at somebody that's annoying you."

Of course. The first thing a physicist might do is measure the force of such things. Next they might measure the effect distance has on this force. The problem is, since no one seems able to actually produce these effects, there is no way to even get started (not unlike your downloading problems).

Travis Hedglin's picture
How about a fart? It is kind

How about a fart? It is kind of like a magic spell, it can clear a room with little but a noise...

Stu. K.'s picture
"See this was your first

"See this was your first mistake: if you want to develop some supernatural beliefs you shouldn't test them. :)"

I am not sure if you are joking or not, but if not, isn't this a reason why people bash religion? And how lovely Travis.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Well yes I was being kind of

Well yes I was being kind of silly. I think you did exactly the right thing by testing these crazy ideas. This is exactly what the believers in this non-sense never do.

Travis Hedglin's picture
It's the closest thing I can

It's the closest thing I can think of to a magical incantation, that exists in the real world.

jay-h's picture
Stu--Things like 'the force'

Stu--Things like 'the force' are basically science fiction copouts for spells, and would violate principles of physics just as spells would. Series like 'Star Wars' are really is just mythology in science clothing. Not necessarily a bad thing as entertainment, but not reality.

Having said that, many people can enjoy these things in the same way they enjoy any fiction. My wife has a big collection of artistic tarot cards (as well as a few crystal balls) but it's just a hobby to her. They're nice objects even though they are useless for telling the future.

DazPetty's picture
In the realm of the occult,

In the realm of the occult, there are those who believe in literal fairies, crystal balls and other things. However there are other people like myself who see it as a tool for investigating ones own sub-conscious and as a means to create change within oneself.

It should not be seen as absurd to say that one could perform rituals, such as summoning demons or other figures to create lasting changes in their personality, open doors in their imagination or effect the presence that they give to others. I'm sure we have all experienced the feeling of a person being a Christian without needing to ask them directly.

The occult is certainly full of fictional drivel, but there are things within it that are useful. If you want to poke fun at it, then that's easy because there are simply so many crazy crystal healers and non-sense peddlers out there. Never the less, even in the far out case of crystal healing there is a legitimate case of Pavlovian conditioning going on there, if you believe a blue crystal calms you down then it probably will.

DazPetty's picture
Are farts magical? Following

Are farts magical? Following the devil for 5 minutes?

You guys are just idiots, I wonder if you read anything on this thread or just came in for a bit of verbal diahriah.

I don't believe people can affect the weather or levitate cups, but I do believe people can participate or practice rituals that have an effect on their perception, imagination and attitude to reality.

I'm sure we all know what it feels like to be moved by a great movie, or to go to watch a great game of sport, and the various highs and lows of so many experiences, and not merely the emotional feelings but the actual linguistic thoughts and words take form in the conscious mind as a result of this, those thoughts and feelings emanate around us and influence other people.

To me the occult tradition with all it's symbolism and imagery is a tool for crafting these very natural things, they are not spooky and there is no question about whether they exist or not.

Unfortunately on one side there are the typical atheist block heads who just want to shift the conversation into talking about homeopathy and other idiots, still on the side of the occultist there is the problem of the morons who actually believe in homeopathy and the literal and isolated existence of religious gods/demons.

Travis Hedglin's picture
It's spelled "diarrhea", and

It's spelled "diarrhea", and you might want to check your own spelling if you are calling someone else an idiot; or it is just a vicious sort of self-deprecating irony...

Meanwhile, you didn't really offer much other than telling us it is all imaginary, and the only effect this "magic" has is in the minds of the people who believe in it; much like gods. So what? You don't need special rituals or practices to change your perspective or inspire you, and there is little difference between a prayer and a spell, or a magic circle and a Jesus cracker. At the bottom the only thing being altered is the mind of the person doing it, and there are other ways of doing it that don't require "religious" nor "magical" rituals or practices, only a willingness to change.

In the end, clinging to mystical practices and rituals even for a placebo effect will only allow people to continue believing nonsense for no good reason, and there is little reason to do that.

DazPetty's picture
Yeah, I kinda knew this

Yeah, I kinda knew this conversation would get derailed like this. You're just a forum rat who has to put a comment on everything.

Saying there are "other" ways of doing it is like saying Halloween is stupid because there are "other ways" of doing Halloween, like trickle-treating in the clothes you wear every other day. Of course I already covered this in a previous post discussing something sterile like the hypnosis and NLP as an alternative to the occult, but as a know-it-all you probably didn't read it because all you care about is having your comment on every thread in the forum.

You also belittle the power of the imagination, every thought you have in your head is a form of imagination and the way you perceive everything, there is an entire representation of the external world that exists within your head. The reason some people are rich and some are poor in any free society is because of something in their imagination, in their head. People like Bram Stoker and Isaac Newton where occultists, and their experience with the occult may have helped them unlock their mind's great ideas.

CyberLN's picture
"The reason some people are

"The reason some people are rich and some are poor in any free society is because of something in their imagination, in their head."

Well, allow me to join the forum's rodent population and comment that the quote above, pulled from your post, is pure, unadulterated bupkus!

hermitdoc's picture
This is a typical response.

This is a typical response. When someone questions your sacred cow, you become defensive and bitchy.
The same reason you reject other religions applies to the occult. It's nothing more than magical thinking.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Yeah, I kinda knew this

"Yeah, I kinda knew this conversation would get derailed like this."

Figures, when I finally do address your less than spectacular post, you accuse me of derailing the conversation. I didn't, I only responded to what you said, if that is "derailing", then your post was shit and you should feel bad.

"You're just a forum rat who has to put a comment on everything."

As opposed to you, who is barely a forum member, and has contributed next to nothing. So what? Is the fact that I have been here a while, or that I have a range of opinions, even relevant to my response to you? Or maybe, just perhaps, you have to attack me because you don't have an argument that is worth a shit...

"Saying there are "other" ways of doing it is like saying Halloween is stupid because there are "other ways" of doing Halloween, like trickle-treating in the clothes you wear every other day."

The way we do Halloween NOW is a different way from the original holiday, and you could wear clothes you wear any other day while you trick-or-treat if you want to. This is a WEAK defense.

"Of course I already covered this in a previous post discussing something sterile like the hypnosis and NLP as an alternative to the occult, but as a know-it-all you probably didn't read it because all you care about is having your comment on every thread in the forum."

I probably did read it, but didn't comment on it, because I probably thought it was too stupid to be real. Hypnosis and NLP? They aren't even necessary either. Anybody who has ever made a change in their life, purposefully, can tell you it doesn't take reprogramming or pretending to cast magic isn't necessary for it.

"You also belittle the power of the imagination, every thought you have in your head is a form of imagination and the way you perceive everything, there is an entire representation of the external world that exists within your head."

No, you do. You assert that our imagination and minds are too WEAK to make a change without mystical placebo's or reprogramming. You want to change your perspective or attitude? You can do it consciously, without any mumbo-jumbo, and anyone who says otherwise wants you to be too weak to do it for yourself.

"The reason some people are rich and some are poor in any free society is because of something in their imagination, in their head."

Failing economics now? No, the reason why poor people exist isn't because they aren't imaginative enough, but because the system barely gives some people enough to survive. There are some people right now working three fucking jobs, putting in more than 70 hours a week, and barely making enough to keep their family afloat. Then some fucking pretentious dickwad like you comes in here and spouts off stupid bullshit like "They just aren't imaginative enough, that's why they aren't rich!", causing me to have to ask, where you kicked in the head as a child or what? Are you really that fucking blind to reality?

Next you will tell me that rape victims are responsible for their own rapes, because they weren't imaginative enough to simply think of it as surprise sex, and didn't put out enough waves of pure positive energy into the universe. People like you make me sick, you blame the poor for being poor, and the sick for being sick; meanwhile without taking any responsibility for being a feckless wonderdunce. Take your newage(read sewage) nonsense elsewhere, of all the things you might be, a skeptic sure as shit isn't one of them.

"People like Bram Stoker and Isaac Newton where occultists, and their experience with the occult may have helped them unlock their mind's great ideas."

So what? Even if we found out tomorrow that Sagan really believed in that goddamned dragon, that doesn't make the fucking thing real. Newton believed in fucking Alchemy, does that mean we should all fucking practice it? No, we don't have to respect every single one of a persons beliefs because they get something right, and a persons scientific discovery doesn't make their god true either.

Nyarlathotep's picture
"The reason some people are

Daz - "The reason some people are rich and some are poor in any free society is because of something in their imagination, in their head."

Sounds like "The Secret" or prosperity theology. Put me down as a fellow rodent.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Daz welcome back to the forum

Daz welcome back to the forum thought you left.
Do not expect Travis Nyarlathotep CyberLN to contribute to the topic except to bash whatever you are saying regardless of what it is.

You can check SAM Harris work on spirituality and understand yourself topics.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-plea-for-spirituality/
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-spiritual-truths/

"experiencing new ideas and opening my imagination in new areas."
That is a good quality but always keep an open mind while being skeptic of everything.

"magical practice has been about creating change within myself"
magical practice is a strong word to describe something you do not understand, the moment you understand what it is it becomes science and nature.
Using such words may attract people with prejudice and bias on the argument and it might get derailed because of it.
I suggest you address them as unknown phenomena or spiritual things.(spiritual comes from Latin "spiritus"= breath)

I do think there is some truth with regards to understanding oneself better that maybe science has not yet discovered well enough, but progress in meditation is already on it's way.

Hope that you don't get demoralized because of some fools that cannot help themselves from displaying their stupid behavior.

good day.

DazPetty's picture
OK, I understand where you

OK, I understand where you "team atheist" people are coming from, simply because I've been there, I was an atheist all my life from an atheist family. Then one day when I was about 22 I took some LSD with some people and it was around that time that while thinking about God and how "he" isn't real, I had a revelation that perhaps the only God that really needs to exist is the metaphorical one. This really marked my self-initiation into the occult.

For a while I wondered if I was an atheist or a theist, and considered words like deist or pantheist, but ultimately I came to rest with calling myself an atheist, firstly because of the confrontations with people of religion who clearly saw their god as more than a metaphor or thought form.

When I said that "the difference between the rich and the poor is an idea in their imagination", I stand by that within a reasonable extent, of course most of the rich people made their way through inheritance, but people like Elon Musk, Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates had ideas, ambition and direction that separated them from the crowd. No matter how slim our chances of escaping whatever lowly economic situations we are in, there is nothing worth focusing on but the smallest possibility that we may be richer/stronger/better/smarter/educated'er.

Travis, you just won't allow the point to hit home, I don't give a fuck about the tradition of halloween 300 years ago, I'm talking about as it is right now. Your suggestions Travis make about as much sense as saying "I'm not going to the cinema to watch a movie and have fun, I'll stay at home and 'force' my mind to enjoy itself".

People in the military and government have a plethora of elaborate ceremonies and rituals to reinforce values and hierarchy.

Travis, your attitude is ironic, you are what I call a "Christian Atheist" because you are still a Christian in more ways than you understand. For example: who or what exactly is it that is causing the change to occur within you? I don't expect you to get the depth of what I am saying, you cannot look at your own face without the distortion of a reflection.

All the people who agree with Travis or think like him (and there are many), essentially want to straw man me into being a someone they are more familiar with, like the fruity crystal salesperson or a person of religion.

Travis's argument against what I'm saying boils down to nothing more than "why go to stadium to watch the football when you can see it on TV". Travis and others are stuck on the "Crux of Belief" he and his similar atheists are essentially still Christians, I'm going to take this topic of the "Crux of Belief" to another thread, because I made this thread to look for friends who are Atheists and Occultists before this thread was firebombed by people who want to force me onto their "Crux of Belief" which I will explain elsewhere.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Daz - "All the people who

Daz - "All the people who agree with Travis or think like him (and there are many), essentially want to straw man me into being a someone they are more familiar with, like the fruity crystal salesperson..."

Funny you should mention crystals, I just finished reading the book you discussed in your opening post; here are some quotes:
-------------------
"Any sort of material base is a spirit trap in some way, but some substances, notably crystals, absorb aetheric imprints very readily. Quartz crystals, which are large and readily available, can be used to pick up impressions by leaving them near charged places, persons, or objects. If a spirit or elemental is discovered to be inhabiting some place it can be trapped by plunging a crystal into its form...charged instruments contain a residium of formless aetheric energy which actually amplify the impressions. Most devices in this class are magical mirrors, crystal spheres, highly polished surfaces, and pools of dark liquid or blood."

"In general, spirits can be coerced by anything with highly ordered, low entropy structure — the focused human will, magnetized iron, crystals, and to some extent, very pure water being the most commonly employed agents."

"A subsequent rite of entrapment centers around the use of a spirit trap of which by far the most effective are crystals. Salt crystals are often used more or less unknowingly in religious rites, but shamans the world over prefer larger more stable crystals, particularily quartz. Incidentally, ordinary salt is so good at picking up various bits of random low level psychic debris that many witches and mystics refuse to eat it."

"Entities may be coerced into crystals by plunging them into the space occupied by a spirit if this can be determined."

"In addition, the magician should make himself familiar with at least one system of divination: cards, crystal gazing, runesticks, pendulum, or divining rod."
-------------------

Travis Hedglin's picture
Oh my fucking god, spirits?

Oh my fucking god, spirits? Goddamn that is some thick fucking irony, he wants to call us religious when he still believes in fucking spirits... Fucking hell, he might have managed to pour the religion out of his brain, but what he replaced it with was utter horseshit...

Nyarlathotep's picture
oh this is nothing, there is

oh this is nothing, there is a pile of other MUCH crazier stuff in there, this is just the stuff involving crystals.

Travis Hedglin's picture
Don't tell me, I am still

Don't tell me, I am still trying to cling to the tiny shred of faith I have left in humanity, I don't think I can handle it at the moment...

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Travis Hedglin's picture
"OK, I understand where you

"OK, I understand where you "team atheist" people are coming from, simply because I've been there, I was an atheist all my life from an atheist family. Then one day when I was about 22 I took some LSD with some people and it was around that time that while thinking about God and how "he" isn't real, I had a revelation that perhaps the only God that really needs to exist is the metaphorical one. This really marked my self-initiation into the occult."

Well, that explains a good bit. Instead of worshiping a literal god you worship a metaphorical one, one founded in how we perceive rather than what we perceive. This will likely cause some argument between us, as you will inevitably consider how we perceive things as more important that what we are perceiving.

"For a while I wondered if I was an atheist or a theist, and considered words like deist or pantheist, but ultimately I came to rest with calling myself an atheist, firstly because of the confrontations with people of religion who clearly saw their god as more than a metaphor or thought form."

Sounds more like some of that "we are the universe" kind of pandeism to me, but you haven't exactly described your god in any meaningful way beyond it simply being a mental construct.

"When I said that "the difference between the rich and the poor is an idea in their imagination", I stand by that within a reasonable extent, of course most of the rich people made their way through inheritance, but people like Elon Musk, Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates had ideas, ambition and direction that separated them from the crowd. No matter how slim our chances of escaping whatever lowly economic situations we are in, there is nothing worth focusing on but the smallest possibility that we may be richer/stronger/better/smarter/educated'er."

Really? Poor people are poor because of a lack of ideas, ambition, direction, and focus? Most people are not quite as fortunate as the ones you mention, many DO try to create a business or start a company, but are not able to make it. You can keep blaming those people for their own fundamental lack of opportunity, which is what it really is most of the time, and I will keep pointing it out and calling you on it.You are a swine for that, and deserve to be treated as such.

"Travis, you just won't allow the point to hit home, I don't give a fuck about the tradition of halloween 300 years ago, I'm talking about as it is right now. Your suggestions Travis make about as much sense as saying "I'm not going to the cinema to watch a movie and have fun, I'll stay at home and 'force' my mind to enjoy itself"."

No, it is saying that instead of having to go out to the cinema to watch a movie and have fun, you can invite some friends over and watch one at home and have an even better time. Once again, the difference is the person, and people can and do change.

"People in the military and government have a plethora of elaborate ceremonies and rituals to reinforce values and hierarchy."

Those work out SOOOO well, don't they. There has never been a single case of insubordination or whistleblower, ever. And I am just as sure that none of those people ever changed their ideas of values or hierarchy... Right...

Your appeals to traditions are basically the same as religious ones, that people should submit to practices and rituals instead of making the changes themselves, because the human mind and will is weak. Well, you know what, not all of us are as weak as you are.

"Travis, your attitude is ironic, you are what I call a "Christian Atheist" because you are still a Christian in more ways than you understand."

Prove it. Use the Socratic Method if you must, but prove this assertion or shove it right back in your colon where it originated.

"For example: who or what exactly is it that is causing the change to occur within you?"

Me.

"I don't expect you to get the depth of what I am saying, you cannot look at your own face without the distortion of a reflection."

Spare me you nonsensical koanlike rhetoric that has as much meaning as a fortune cookie, say something clear of shove off. All reflection is distorted, even self-reflection, so you can't do it either you holier than thou prick.

"All the people who agree with Travis or think like him (and there are many), essentially want to straw man me into being a someone they are more familiar with, like the fruity crystal salesperson or a person of religion."

You are demonstrating why we should think that with every passing post.

"Travis's argument against what I'm saying boils down to nothing more than "why go to stadium to watch the football when you can see it on TV". Travis and others are stuck on the "Crux of Belief" he and his similar atheists are essentially still Christians, I'm going to take this topic of the "Crux of Belief" to another thread, because I made this thread to look for friends who are Atheists and Occultists before this thread was firebombed by people who want to force me onto their "Crux of Belief" which I will explain elsewhere."

More projection? You know what, eat a crate of dicks you fucknugget, and get back to me when you have something worthwhile to say.

DazPetty's picture
Nyarlathotep, what I like

Nyarlathotep, what I like about Chaos Magick is that it really pushes the idea of using belief as a tool and the notion of all gods and spirits being thought-forms. If through ritual and imagination you aim to achieve results which are also mental or imaginary then I think that ones magickal practice can be successful. (This form of magic is spelt magick to differentiate it from stage magic).

In my life I have experienced the projection of other peoples emotions, awesome sexual and spiritual experiences that parallel things talked about in occult literature, Indian writings on the chakras and Chinese medicine.

Once a friend of mine read from this book "Chinese Magical Medicine" http://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=426 , and upon doing so the house was filled with this distinctly Chinese spirit-presence, that is to say we all felt it, and even if the existence of such a spirit was the result of our imaginations, that made the experience no less real.

Another time I had a feeling like my heart was opening and energy was pulsating out of it into my girlfriend in a sexual experience.

Also when I do the downward motion with my hands that you see Buddhist Shaolin monks or taiqi practitioners do at the end of a session, I feel that close down the energy gates of my body just like their literature describes, they have seen this effect with heat sensitive cameras but unfortunately it doesn't really prove much. These calming gestures I've learned from taiqi and study do indeed work however.

Indeed I try to understand these experiences and how they came about as an atheist with all the skepticism and desire for proof which that entails.

It's totally fine that these experiences don't matter to you, haven't happened to you, or that you simply aren't interested in them, I made a request in my original post to talk to people who are interested in these things. I asked for a recommendation on books that aren't heavy on the hocus pocus of people talking about which day of the year corresponds to what element/star-sign or personal opinions that don't really have anything of value.

I'm sure all that doesn't interest either Trevor or Nyarlathotep, that's fine, fuck off, you didn't have to just come in here and cry bullshit, I'm just looking to understand experiences I've had so that I can re-create them or to have new experiences, and being a skeptical helps me find the valid information.

I don't know what it is with you "Christian Atheists" / "Pop-Atheists" and your snide attitudes and dismissive attitude of subjective experience.

Travis Hedglin's picture
You tell that Trevor, he

You tell that Trevor, he sounds like a total asshole...

Nyarlathotep's picture
Daz - "I asked for a

Daz - "I asked for a recommendation on books that aren't heavy on the hocus pocus of people talking about which day of the year corresponds to what element/star-sign or personal opinions that don't really have anything of value."

The problem is I don't think there is any difference between the astrology you seem to have disdain for, and the complete non-sense you have endorsed in your latest post (energy gates in the human body, chakras, Chinese spirit-presence, etc).

I don't want to knock your ass-chakra out of alignment, but I'd like to know: how did you know that the "spirit-presence" you felt in that house was Chinese? Was it carrying a Chinese passport, or did it smell like sweet-n-sour pork?

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