Hi,
first of all I just joined so hello everyone.
Sorry if this has been asked or debated before, but I find myself in the need of debating this matter: I'd want to apostasy from Catholic Church, but here in Spain it seems rather difficult due to lack on information, and above all, the Church here being able to deny your request.
I only know personally one person who did it, and this doesn't result in being "deleted" from their "databanks". No, what they do is to put a marginal note in the baptismal book or whatever and that's it. They don't even send a formal document noting your have refused the christian faith, etc.
How does this work in other countries? What consequences does it has? Is even worth the effort? Does apostasy make sense taking the results in consideration?
Thanks and regards.
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Hi Juan.
Why is it important to you to be removed from their lists?
I left the Catholic Church when I was 13 years old. I did not ask their permission or notify them of my departure. I live in the U.S.A.
wow..that's weird, you really need to ask permission to your church?
ok..let me ask you..do you live in this church?cause if you do..asking permission is a must..
i'm a RCC and i just stopped attending mass and going church....
@CyberLN: It's coherent for me not to be part f their lists, not only about ideology, but for other matters. In Spain, the several organizations of the RCC receives a budget from the Estate depending on how much people form their lists. Even this is not a transparent matter. So ideologically and socially, it's important for me not to be part of their "club".
@Qu@si: Yes, we do have. Spain has a long catholic tradition and they are that strong. I do not live in any church. But if anyone wants to leave their faith, etc. they have to ask for a copy of the baptismal certificate (followed by an interrogation about why do you want it because they know it'd be for leaving and they could refuse), add a copy of their national ID, send it to the local diocese and wait for an answer, which could be they agree and let you leave, or refuse and keep having you a part of their numbers. Because it's in their own interest.
Juansaman I am struggling to understand how this issue impacts your life in any way. Does it affect your income? Is the RCC able to impact your life outside of the church walls?
I do not need to know any details, just the gross picture.
Hi, Juansaman, and welcome! It's nice to say hello to a fellow Spaniard! I did the same research as you, because I did not want to be considered a RCC anymore. It also bothers me to be a source of public income for the Spanish Catholic Church; but when I found out how ardous the process is, and when this is the only institution in our country not compelled to follow the LOPD, so they don't have to delete our data, I gave up. Until politically this situation doesn't change, and the RCC begins to follow the Law as any other institution, I think it is not worth the effort to apostate.
Why don't you just stop going? Just don't participate in any rituals et cetera. Who cares what they think? Whether they count you amoungst them or whether they don't like it. It's your life and your mind, do what you want with it.
Welcome to Atheist Republic by the way. Stick around for some debates in the debate room. Hay muchisma diversión y a veces muy gracioso.
@David Killens: It bothers me they count me as one of their own when I don't consider myself part of them. It bothers me the process is obviously hard in purpose so they don't lose any income. It bothers me part of my income goes to them thanks to their unwillingness of allowing people to leave. It disgusts me to be count as one of their followers when I read, find out, or see past or new atrocities comitted or allowed by them. I doesn't make me feel better to be count as part of them when they help others. And there are a lot of personal reasons and issues I had with them, so for this not te be a huge list, I say It's a matter of being coherent.
@Flamenca: Hi! Nice to meet you too ^^. Yes, that's one of the options, wait for things to change, instead of going through their own shitty process. It's good to know your experience, this helps, thanks!
@Aposteriori Unum: Yes, I did stop being part of their community and rites a very long time ago. But as you can see what I answered to David Killens, for me it doesn't seem to be enough. Coherence. And thanks for the welcome, I'll stick around and have fun ^^
Please excuse my ignorance Juansaman, but I do not know the mechanism how the church can have an impact on your income. Is it a box you tick on your tax form?
I sort of understand the general gist on what you are saying, but I fail to comprehend the specifics on how the church can impact your life.
@Juan
I am 60 and I haven't been able to do that from the Episcopal Chruch since I was 17. I bet it is even harder in the catholic church. Good luck!
Juansaman wrote: "..if anyone wants to leave their faith, etc. they have to ask for a copy of the baptismal certificate (followed by an interrogation about why do you want it because they know it'd be for leaving and they could refuse), add a copy of their national ID, send it to the local diocese and wait for an answer, which could be they agree and let you leave, or refuse and keep having you a part of their numbers.."
I have heard that from someone else in Spain. Flamenca can advise better but there is now a Humanist group in Valencia run by Spanish people. (Many humanist groups in Spain are founded by British or other non-Spanish folk). I suggest you contact them. Here's their latest utube video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6eeNzC9zMk&feature=youtu.be
It might help to 'follow' and 'like' that.
https://humanistfederation.eu/ehf-valencia-humanist-meeting-conference/
The sex abuse scandals have undermined the standing of the Roman Catholic Church in many countries, including the Rep of Ireland. Religious superstition is dying steadily anyway.
Theology is just mythology taken too seriously.
@mykcob4: Thanks for the support, man.
@ZeffD: Wow, I'm originally from Valencia and never heard of them! Thank you very much!! Kudos!
he he he , Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Does it really matter what they think when you know your own mind? Outside of being very disrespectful and spray painting "I am an atheist" or marring the 20 foot Jesus in your Church, there probably isn't much you can do. It's not real, ignore it.
@Cognostic Yeah, I have been ignoring it most of the time, but I'm sick of it. It's hypocrisy having them counting me as one more of theirs when I know I'm not, right?
Welcome to the Atheist Republic Juansaman.
I am pretty sure Australian catholics, who leave the church, aren't subject to that sort of bureaucratic treatment. I understand the Spanish church's take on the tax angle.
Must be in the bible somewhere, though it doesn't quite sound like Jesus does it?
"Blessed are apostates who keep paying a tithe tax for they shall still burn in hell, verily but maybe not for quite as long as Eternity, perhaps a little less." I'm sure I read that in there, somewhere..
Enjoy yourself here.
If I was in this situation, I would at least make a token effort to debaptise myself.
There's supposed to be freedom of religion under the Spanish Constitution. Apply for refugee status to another country because of religious persecution.
Do what the Americans did. Fight a revolution (can be peaceful) against religious tyranny and create a constitution separating church from state!
@chimp3 It's not that easy, it's supposed to be separated, but some obscure sections must be revisited. In any case this is a political matter, and Spanish politicians are incapable of collaboration, not to speak to modify the Constitution (unless it's about money as they did in order to receive rescue money during the crisis in 2011, of course).
The Constitution says:
"The ideological, religious and cult of freedom of individuals and communities is guaranteed without further limitation, in its manifestations, than is necessary for the maintenance of public order protected by law.
No one may be forced to testify about their ideology, religion or beliefs.
No confession will have a state character. The public authorities will take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and will maintain the consequent cooperative relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions."
Did you see how hilarious is the last section?
We do have political parties that are supposed to be left aligned, and speak out an loud about this kind of situations, but for instance, during socialists governs there was no motion to modify that. This confuses people who want this sort of change that never happen, and there is a lot of conservative people who don't want that.
In any case, it's a political change, a revolution like that will divide the people and confront them, and we already saw what happened in the 1920's and we are still suffering the outcome. Sadly, the only safe way to reach this sort of change depends on a political renovation according the rules of democracy (and our democracy is a joke), and this is not going to happen in the near future.
Juansaman: Well, fuck those castrated bastards!
If you are not paying taxes to the church and they have no demands for you, why would you care? I wouldn't care if there was no money involved. I was paying a church income tax, so I quit the congregation to stop that.
Maybe leaving the congregation and stopping the payments doesn't solve all the problems? Perhaps the problem is with the institution of the payments? Apart from contradicting the principle of separation of Church and State, there could be various problems if you can't produce a reference from your local cleric? An example might be: employers and others may assume you can obtain a reference from your local cleric and the lack of one may leave you open to unprovable discrimination? I'm not sure I get the full picture of the problem in Spain.
@ZeffD, and the rest, money is not subtracted straight from our accounts, but the Goverment pays money to the Church, depending on how many RCCs are registred as such, from baptism, apart from other public benefits, like RCC religión being a subject in our public schools and tax breaks. And I understand @Juansaman, because it's infuriating to be consider as a RCC when you are not. What I try to tell him is that before some political changes are implemented, like RC Church following the Law about privacy of personal data, it's not worth the effort to apostate.
Sorry for the late reply.
I came to the same conclusion as you, @Flamenca, it's not worth the hassle just to get a marginal note in their books. Totally agree.