Ideological differences

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Harry33Truman's picture
Ideological differences

I am an atheist, a materialist, and an empiricalist- that much we might agree on. But the more I look around this website the more I see that the majority of you are socialist, progressives, and authoritarians. Most of you oppose gun rights and economic freedom, most of you support welcoming in millions of terrorists into our countries, and most of you supported Hillary. Albeit, I supported Trump, but at least I can admit he is a douchebag and that his daughter is a shithead.

Either way it is aside the point, I know a Marxist and we get along, I know a Neo-nazi and we get along, I even know a few populists and we get along. My Great Aunt and Great Grandma both voted for Hillary- and yet I'm cool with them. That isn't the problem. I'm not one of these trendies who freaks put when someone dares to disagree with them, that's not the point.

For many of you, it isn't enough to believe, for example, that no one needs a gun, you want to force me to act in accordance with your wrong belief.

Furthermore, many of you can't even come up with an argument against my stances. When I made a post saying I would like for most government functions to be handled locally, myckob responded by calling it stupid, which is not an argument. He didn't make the same response to truett, who advocated a global communist regime, so why not apply it to the other extreme?

It seems that many of your ideas were also adopted from the Nazis- who supported strong government control of the economy, social welfare programs, gun prohibition, a European Super State, and eventually, a World Government.

I am a Classical Liberal- as a Classical Liberal, I support decentralised power, strong borders, maximum personal and economic freedom, and a smaller, less intrusive government. If you don't like it- that's your problem. On a few occasions I have avoided expressing my stances as to not make people like myckob angry, but it isn't my job to agree with you.

Abraham Lincoln once said 'you can get some of the people to like you all of the time, and you can get all of the people to like you some of the time, but you will never get all of the people to like you all of the time.' I just have different beliefs than the rest of you, and so I am bound to make enemies- so deal with it.

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chimp3's picture
If your a classic liberal why

If your a classic liberal why did you vote for Donald "Eminent Domain" Trump? Trump promised to intervene heavily in the economy and increase federal powers. If your a classic liberal why are you anti-immigration? These stances are not in line with the libertarians.

Harry33Truman's picture
Didn't vote for Trump, I am

Didn't vote for Trump, I am not 18 yet- I supported Trump because my alternative was Hillary. I just had to accept that, short of Ron Paul, I would never get my ideal candidate, and so I settled with 'better than Hillary.' In 2020, I am not likely to vote for Trump, and might go green or libertarian, depending on the candidates.

MCDennis's picture
Good for you. Lot's of

Good for you. Lot's of secret Trumpster voters used the not hillary thing as cover for their racist, sexist, anti LGBT, protectionist leanings.

Harry33Truman's picture
None of my fellow Trumpeters

None of my fellow Trumpeters are sexist, racist, or anti-LGBTQAXYZ+

LogicFTW's picture
LOL.

LOL.

Well played sir.
I suspected... played along even though I suspected, but kept going, Not sure why you picked now to show your cards, you had a good game going. Oh well, was fun.

jamiebgood1's picture
https://www.google.com/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/95209084/
Harry
Your logic can't be factual. Have you any idea how many accidental deaths occur from firearms. Many children have lost their lives because people like you think they need a gun for protection. An avid gun range shooter in her 20's recently died at the gun ranged. Accidental. A 3 year old son of a trained cop just killed himself with daddy's gun. Get a tazer or some mace.
And you can't claim to be liberal as chimp explained. Your views are not close to liberal freedom.
Please check your sources because I don't think you understand the risks involved.

Harry33Truman's picture
Your definition of freedom is

Your definition of freedom is having the government control your life. More people die every year of obesity than of firearm accidents, yet we don't ban fast food. Just because a child might end up dying from something isn't grounds for banning it. Children can die because they played with an electric socket, yet we don't ban electricity.

LogicFTW's picture
Doubt just about anyone wants

Doubt just about anyone wants to handle control of their lives over to the government, that is a label you put on people that is simply not true. No one's definition of freedom includes the government having control of their lives.

Almost no one is saying we should ban guns entirely, that cat is out of the bag. There is something like 400 million guns in the US. Most gun control advocates are just asking for at least some work to be done to keep guns out of the wrong hands, like those with serious mental illness not having access to a gun.

People that get themselves or family killed with their own guns I just call that "darwinism."

You missed another one on your silly completely irrelevant list of: "guns are just like ...." cars.

I used to be pretty strong gun control blah blah. In reality, you are right, even in extreme gun country US, where people are 1000 times more likely to die to guns then in "almost no guns:" Japan. The chances that you will ever die to a gun is extremely remote by some random stranger you never met. Unless you frequently put yourself in dangerous situations. (Even more remote that owning a gun will help you in said situation.)

If people want to buy the fear hype, and to go spend thousands of dollars on guns, they very likely will never have to use in self defense, they are free to do so. Even if it it greatly increases gun violence/mistake in their own home, it is a household decision, I do not feel the need to take away people's right to be stupid.

I know several people that bought a gun, went and did some target practice, put the gun in a gun safe, and had it collect dust for 40+ years, that is fine, ~1000 bucks for the illusion of security to sleep better at night is well worth it to many. (Doubt that 40 year old gun will work well though if they tried to use it after all those years!)

jamiebgood1's picture
I never said ban guns. Nor

I never said ban guns. Nor did Hillary. Common sense gun laws are what I believe should be passed. Background checks, do mentally ill need a gun? And I don't believe we need machine guns in society. They are for war.
My clients conservative father inlaw recently went to the yearly gun show and bought all the parts to a machine gun. Then they sent him somewhere for it to be put together for use. Now this old bastard can do what he likes with that gun. No screening whatsoever.

Harry33Truman's picture
If private citizens shouldn't

If private citizens shouldn't own machine guns, take them out of the hands of the military as well.

jamiebgood1's picture
Why would you take a war

Why would you take a war weapon away from our military? Why would a civilian need a machine gun. It's already Illegal to own bombs and nuclear weapons. Machine guns are for war and shooting mass bullets at a time.

Harry33Truman's picture
This is the know and of

This is the know and of thinking I am dealing with, it isn't your place to say that they don't need a machine gun. That is for THEM to decide. You seem to be under the assumption that the state gets to decide what we should and should not be able to do.

jamiebgood1's picture
Ok Harry

Ok Harry
In what instance would you need a machine gun?

Harry33Truman's picture
Its kind of aside the point,

Its kind of aside the point, but suppose you were attacked by a gang of 20 people?

LogicFTW's picture
You call for backup by

You call for backup by trained professionals, aka the police, the ones that cannot be beat. The security you already pay for.
And if you get "jumped" by a gang of 20 people you need to seriously examine your life choices that got you in that situation, instead of just assuming owning a machine gun is the solution.

Harry33Truman's picture
I was just giving a

I was just giving a hypothetical because that's what she asked for, its irrelevant. Besides, if someone breaks into your house, and you call the police, the police will come- and they will take a picture of your body. It takes at least 15 minutes for them to arive.

LogicFTW's picture
Very rare that if someone

Very rare that if someone breaks into your house, and you know about it, and are there, that the end result that you are dead. If someone breaks into your house specifically to murder you, they are lousy at what they do if you actually are aware of the break in. Much better and easier ways to murder someone then to loudly break into their home and just assume the target does not notice.

The scenario you point to in your post is extremely, (lottery winning odds,) rare. Unless you make a lot of enemies, or are in the drug trade or something.

Besides, if someone is going to murder you like that, it would not matter if the police response time was under a minute, unless again, the murder is real bad at it. Reality is not the movies or tv shows you watch.

If someone wanted someone dead badly enough, the target could have a hundred guns, and it would not matter. The element of surprise and planning beats a gun for defense every time.

Sky Pilot's picture
JamieB,
MCDennis's picture
We don't normally disagree...

We don't normally disagree... but IMO the reference to machine guns is a red herring.

mykcob4's picture
You aren't a classic liberal,

You aren't a classic liberal, you don't even know what that is. You don't know what you are talking about. You are lying when you say that we are welcoming millions of terrorist in this nation. You don't know what a progressive is, what a socialist is, what an authoritarian is.
Lincoln never said what you misquoting him as saying. What he said was "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
Fucking saying that we have ideas that come from NAZI idealism is just fucking stupid.
You don't know what you are talking about. You have reverted to an immature kid because people don't agree with you and this thread is just you lashing out. You're mad because we PROVED why YOU shouldn't have a gun. And that is the jest of it.

Harry33Truman's picture
Myckob, I honestly don't give

Myckob, I honestly don't give a shit what you think of it. This has nothing yo do with you disagreeing with me- I know Marxists and White Supremacists, and we get along. The problem is that you don't know how to make a proper argument, and instead resort to ad-hominem attacks, strawman fallacies, and false dichonomies. Take this quote:
"You have reverted to an immature kid because people don't agree with you and this thread is just you lashing out. You're mad because we PROVED why YOU shouldn't have a gun. And that is the jest of it."

'You're reverted and immature,' is not an argument. And 'you're just mad because I proved you wrong' is a false dichonomy. Isn't it more likely that what I SAID in my OP is going on, as opposed to what you claim?

Classical Liberalism, myckob, is just a word we use for ACTUAL liberals. John Locke, called the father of liberalism, lays it out very clear in his Second Treatise on Government, that the only proper role of government is to preserve life, liberty, and property. You can read latter classical liberal works by Thomas Paine or Adam Smith, and you will find a variant of this philosophy.

"Fucking saying that we have ideas that come from NAZI idealism is just fucking stupid."

Well it's true- the abolition of state governments, banning guns, and government control over the economy.

"You don't know what a progressive is, what a socialist is, what an authoritarian is."

A progressive is someone who wants the government to control the economy more, a socialist wants the government to control the entirety of the economy, and an authoritarian just refers to anyone who supports large government and an intrusion into personal liberty.

You don't have to like me myckob, you don't even have to tolerate me- but I'm here, and I don't buy your bullshit, so get over it.

mykcob4's picture
1) You prove I am right

1) You prove I am right because YOUR definitions of the different varieties of ideas are incorrect and sound more what FOX NOISE told you they were. There is no such thing as a classic Liberal. Liberals don't want the government to control your life, they want governments to enforce laws that protect workers from exploitation, consumers from fraud. I won't address the rest of your gibberish. I smells of FOX propaganda or even worse NRA propaganda.

Harry33Truman's picture
You see this is why I don't

You see this is why I don't like having these discussions with you- you call anything you don't like propaganda. You support freedom? That's just fox news propaganda!

A classical liberal is what we can a real liberal these days- like I said before, modern "liberals" are just socialists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Regardless, the point was that I have a very different political ideology from the rest of you and so you should deal with it.

Harry33Truman's picture
Your whole ideology is that

Your whole ideology is that we need a government bureau to protect consumers and workers from themselves. Heaven forfend, unless the government controls wages, employers will pay babies 10 cents a hour to scrub the latrines! The humanity! What you said really has no relation to reality, its like if I said a conservative is someone who supports laws protecting monkeys from flying microwaves.

SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
"welcoming in millions of

"welcoming in millions of terrorists"

well that's dissapointing that you think like that. I was just starting to like you too. Kids like you were the reason I always had to fight in school. Constantly getting harrassed by people calling me a fucking terrorist. Then they apply that logic to refugees who just want to live in a place where they can sleep without the fear of getting carpet bombed. But do you even see these people as actual people? Do you even think for yourself? No. You just repeat whatever you hear on FOX noise.

jamiebgood1's picture
". Kids like you were the

". Kids like you were the reason I always had to fight in school. "

I was the dumbass who always tried to stop fights like my dad did in high school. I would've screamed in those bastards ears or took their backpack. I'm sure I would've been a great help while you knocked them out:)

Harry33Truman's picture
I don't even watch fox- and

I don't even watch fox- and no, these people don't "just want a place where they can sleep without getting carpet bombed." They want to import their savage culture over here. Besides, what kind of idiots attacks a country and makes an enemy of them, then welcomes them into your country? Just stop bombing them and let them figure their shit out.

LogicFTW's picture
The world must be a scary

The world must be a scary world for you if you think millions of terrorist are streaming into this country.

Would be less scary for you if you wanted to listen to... you know, the actual facts.
Might be worth a try, it cannot be fun being scared all the time.

SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
"what kind of idiots attacks

"what kind of idiots attacks a country and makes an enemy of them, then welcomes them into your country?"

That's the type of tunnel vision that keeps people in the dark Harry. You can be better than them.. or not. It's up to you to grow out of that line of thinking.

jamiebgood1's picture
Secular

Secular
Harry's only 16. He's got some time to grow up, but it won't be happening if he doesn't listen.
I thought I knew everything at 16 as he does. Lots and lots to learn Harry. Open your ears and mind to logic.

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