Logic Proof Christian

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XyberEX's picture
Logic Proof Christian

Hello, Non-Believers!

Yesterday afternoon I finally came out to my mother that I’m an Atheist. Apparently she ALWAYS suspected me to be such. She was in denial thinking I’m Agnostic (whatever makes things less tense). She broke down her experience, I broke down mine. She thinks with her heart, I think with my head. She’s emotion minded, I’m logic minded. The only thing we seemed to reach any kind of common ground is that the Bible is full of shit and that if it were a barrel of apples, out of all those hundreds, about four of them would be worth eating. She also agrees that anyone who takes things said in it to heart would be a psychopath that needs to be locked away. She’s also aware of how corrupt the churches can be. So there IS a logic minded being that perhaps realizes she’s using mental gymnastics that’s having a hard time breaking out of the armor of Christ.

But she did express that she was upset that my “walk” ended up causing me to “turn away from God” (implying I think he (the Christian God) exists and I’m just choosing to be willfully ignorant to an absolute fact). So in that way I think the relationship has suffered some damage. Also she thinks the Biblical Jesus is real.

So, let me break down some of the things I brought up and how she flipped over them with the skill and grace of a gold medal Olympian Gymnast. This is an abridged version because the actual remarks from her were long winded and peppered with personal accounts of her life.

Me: The Bible condones slavery. It was the same text that your belief system that was forged around that justified your ancestors enslavement.

Mom: But that’s not God!

Me: The Bible says that women are lesser than men. They don’t want them to hold any sort of power, to be teachers to men OR to be priests or ministers!

Mom: Then the solution is to go to a church that allows women in the pull pits.

Me: If God is an all loving God, then why is evil and suffering a thing?

Mom: Because its to teach us lessons.

Me: Don’t you think that’s unsettling that a perfect being would need to resort to such methods?

Mom: We wouldn’t learn otherwise.

Me: Why would it be necessary to place us on Earth to teach us lessons, when he could just instruct us in Heaven?

Mom: Because they’re no suffering in Heaven, no strife, so how would we apply it?

Me: If we have free will, then how can anything be God’s plan? If everything is in God’s plan, how can we have free will?

Mom: God didn’t put any puppets on the Earth.

Me: If there is one true God, then why other Religions? Why not ONE?

Mom: God has many names, it doesn’t matter what Religion you practice. All you need to do is call out to him (I think I should mention that she doesn’t invalidate other Religions, but thinks Scientology is crazy...let that sink in).

Me: If God is a PERFECT, ALL LOVING BEING, then why would such a PERFECT, ALL LOVING BEING allow his holy book to be filled with such hatred and flaws? Why not put his divine foot down and tell people to not fill his text and laws with falsehoods and horrible things?

Mom: All to teach us a lesson. Man screwed it up.

There is more to it, but these are the major stabs I took to try to get my perspective across.

So as you can see, this is a pretty tough shell of Double Think and Cognitive Dissidence she’s veiled in. The only thing I could convince her of would be to read her Bible from cover to cover (she did it once before...as a child). Considering she knows its full of bullshit YET still tenaciously clings to these beliefs, I think in terms of trying to get her to look more at herself critically will ultimately be a fruitless effort going by what I witnessed.

Also she does tend to research now and then and back in the day, but ALL OF HER SOURCES are from CHRISTIAN publications. I asked her to look in those NOT affiliated with the church.

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ThePragmatic's picture
Congratulations on "coming

Congratulations on "coming out" to her and that she is so reasonable (at least in my view).

Where I live, many who are religious seem to be in very much the same state as your description of your mother. They accept that the bible is very flawed, but seem to think of it as an "emotional guide", but of course without the bad parts. They also do not simply dismiss other religions, as they could somehow be another path to the same god.

But they have a deep need to believe in a benevolent god and perhaps most importantly, an after life. It seems that their minds are partitioned and can both see the flaws in religions, but need it so much that they cling to the delusion and can't allow themselves to let go.

In my opinion, apart from that such people unknowingly will indoctrinate children, they are often open minded enough to not discriminate people based on the bible, they don't want to push religion into schools, they don't oppose scientific discoveries, they don't push for religion in politics.
As such, their beliefs pose very little threat to human progress, compared to fundamentalists and creationists.

EDIT:
My point was, perhaps there is no need for you to convince your mother?

Most atheists feel that if god only showed himself (however unlikely), they would believe. Their mindset isn't locked in a "no belief" state, but can change with believable evidence.
If that is what you think yourself, that could be a comfort for your mother.

XyberEX's picture
Well I did make it perfectly

Well I did make it perfectly clear that IF a God or Gods showed themselves to me, or better yet made splashes in the media, then I would believe. But not until that point.

You do have a point, Prag. I do find it bewildering that such a thing is possible, I'm a live and let live kind of person, long as your actions aren't hurting anyone or whatever system of belief you have doesn't lead you to harmful ends,then you're fine.

Austin Hodge's picture
If it came to that point,

If it came to that point, then it wouldn't really be a state of "believing" would it? It'd be more like a state of knowing, rather than a belief.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Well I did make it perfectly

"Well I did make it perfectly clear that IF a God or Gods showed themselves to me, or better yet made splashes in the media, then I would believe. But not until that point."

If a god showed himself to me, the :
-First; logical conclusion would be, that this is a joke,
-Second, that it is a dream
-Third, I'm suffering from hallucinations.
-Forth, this might be a technologically advanced being that just is pretending to be a god.
-Fifth, if he is god, he is not the christian god, I might ask him some questions.
-Sixth, if he is even remotely as the christian god, I would file a series of complaints and expect a series of apologies from him.
_____Then maybe I would believe that he exists, not even think he is a good god.

XyberEX's picture
Its like you're in my head.

Its like you're in my head.

Kataclismic's picture
The only problem I have with

The only problem I have with that is that if god showed up it certainly wouldn't be a "HE" for only women create and care for life, men just destroy it. So if She showed up that could definitely influence me to believe in Her. But any man showing up telling me he is god would be completely ridiculous and just proves how us men think we are the be-all and end-all.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Maybe it is a He/She lol

Maybe it is a He/She lol

C.G._Cruttenden's picture
Is your goal is to break the

Is your goal is to break the religious shackles of your mother? If so I think you need to take a more philosophical approach. Spouting off everyday atheist rebuttals is only going to make your mother's dogma stronger. You need to take the Socratic approach and break her down by making her question her beliefs through her own responses. Use reason instead of the "why is god this or like that" approch. Stop using comparisons and start using the Socratic method.

XyberEX's picture
I'm going to try that the

I'm going to try that the very next chance I get. I am starting to see that fighting abstract concepts with thoughts doesn't work on a person like this, so perhaps a philosophical approach might be the silver bullet I've been looking for.

Nordic Fox's picture
I love the 1984 reference

I love the 1984 reference here! (DoubleThink)

My wife is the same way, but she still doesn't 'believe in atheists'... As if that wasn't wacky enough!

Pointed out a band I love, said they're atheists too... And her response was "Not everyone who disbelieves has to be an atheist"..... What?

People are absurd lol

Nyarlathotep's picture
When someone I know found out

When someone I know found out I was an atheist they replied (something to the effect of) "well sure I understand the not believing in god thing, I don't believe in god, but why would you want to be an atheist?!?".

XyberEX's picture
That...that's just...I don't

That...that's just...I don't even know where to begin. My brain hurts.

ThePragmatic's picture
That's a clear sign that they

That's a clear sign that they don't know what an atheist is.

ashley.twichell's picture
My mother is pretty much the

My mother is pretty much the exact same way. We've had several conversations very similar to the one you described. But she still insists on "believing" and she hopes that one day, I will "come around". She is praying for me, that I find God again. I told her that if she was going to pray for me, she should just stick to praying for my health and success, and leave the other part out of it, because even God's supposed omnipotence wasn't going to be powerful enough to change my mind. She didn't take that very well.

But anyway, best of luck with the Socratic approach. Helping people to think open-mindedly and to challenge their own beliefs is one of the best things we can do as atheists. It's how I de-converted, essentially, although I mostly questioned myself.

XyberEX's picture
Strangely enough my de

Strangely enough my de-conversion got into full swing when I watched the Adult Swim show Moral Orel and was furthered as I dug deeper on the internet for all sorts of things. The show was funny and weird, but the more I watched it, the more I started to question my own logic (or lack thereof). College and losing the house that "God gave us" ended up driving me to my breaking point and posed my final "crisis of faith" that ultimately killed my theism. I prayed, I plead for us to be able to save the house. I asked God that if not for her children, then at least for my mother's sake because she was so devout in her beliefs.

I cursed, I blasphemed, I broke into tears and got depressed. I challenged Him to smite me, so at the very least I knew he was there, but just a callous prick. Then I got further into atheist commentary and read some arguments. Things started to make a lot more sense.

XyberEX's picture
UPDATE! The Socratic approach

UPDATE! The Socratic approach doesn't seem to work either. I tried it on my theist aunt after she commented that the fact I don't have work (still) is because I don't believe. I asked if in her place if she would kill her special needs child if God commanded it (like in the story of Abraham and Isaac). She said no.

I asked if He's not working any miracles in trying to help me find work despite her prayers, wouldn't it be strange that the prayers of three devout theist women would be negated by one persons doubts (implying that He's not all powerful), she still wrote it off as it not working because "you're not believing" and said I needed to find a preacher that had an interpretation of the bible that "spoke to me".

Let's not even get into the fact that my aunt is unmarried and had a child out of wedlock and all the horrible things "biblical law" would say could be done to her just for that. I used to say "my house is where reason comes to die" with a sense of irony...but now its meaning has taken on a literal context.

They'll never be free. They would probably prefer to see me miserable in Christ than happy without him. They'd prefer me to chase things that aren't there, rather than gasp at things that are. They would prefer I waste my precious life looking for something we have no reason to assume exists than trying to validate those things that we do have reason to know they exist. Reason cannot prevail here. The women of my household have had logic and reason metaphorically beaten and raped out of them at too young an age. There is no going back. The sinister Yahweh has them in His clutches, and they're too stupid to know they're trapped!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Xyber-Demon, you might find

Xyber-Demon, you might find this interesting and somewhat related to your situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU

XyberEX's picture
Oh I LOVE Darkmatter's stuff!

Oh I LOVE Darkmatter's stuff! <3

This was one of the first videos of his I saw. But thanks, Nyarlathotep.

science's picture
It always made me laugh when

It always made me laugh when a theist blames something bad that happens to someone because they "don't believe." Do they REALLY believe that these things DON'T happen to believers? I guess believers ALL have jobs, never get in accidents, etc. HOW RIDICULOUS!! And the child out of wedlock...TYPICAL THEIST!!! (she believes, so WHY did THAT happen??) I guess some of the "Ten Commandments" she felt she didn't have to follow...it didn't accomodate her lifestyle!!

vinay13's picture
Hello Xyber,

Hello Xyber,

Your mom is a woman with experience and wisdom. She tried to ponder you with what she hoped to be true and what seemed right to her. And she succeeded.

I'm sorry but you were never a proper aethist, you had a soft corner for the god and you fell for it without refraining when your mom showed little hope.

My question is, if god was to teach us something in our life, with suffering, then what has he got us after death? If he wanted us to learn through suffering, then why would he bail us out if we call to him? Stop praying.

There is only one sole force and that is you. God was created just to put blame on a second person who doesn' exist. Enlighten yourself with the wonders around you and do what you think is right without staying bound to a silly book of rules which is believed to be a message from god.

Your mom is your god because you believe in her and there is gonna be a god in yourself too if you believe in yourself.

XyberEX's picture
Fred K, is that you?

Fred K, is that you?

ThePragmatic's picture
Good skeptical thinking. :)

Good skeptical thinking. :)
But I think it's highly unlikely. Kenny a.k.a. "fred.k" has some very distinct "tells", that isn't displayed here.

science's picture
The whole problem with

The whole problem with theists, and trying desperately to talk logic with them, is that they deep down KNOW that all this stuff is absolute BULLSHIT!! There is no one in their right miond that could actually REALLY think that these things are possible. But...they WANT TO BELIEVE IT, with all their being, because they want something to cling to that will justify their fear with their own mortality, and the fact that they are unwilling to deal with reality, and unwilling to "let go." They feel that they will "see" loved ones they have lost when they die, and that they will be going to some "paradise" place. If a theist will admit, as your mom did, that the Bible is all bullshit, then in my view, THAT alone is enough to realize that even she dosen't, deep down, really believe all this nonsense...the Bible Scriptures are what the theists follow to justify their beliefs, to say it is bullshit is admitting that it is ALL bullshit!! Additionally, just take ma step back and read some of your mom's answers to logical questions...please, I don't mean any disrespect, but...REALLY!!?? Did ANY of those answers make ANY SENSE at all?? Certainly not to a clear thinking, logical, reasonably intelligent person. It is also a theist specialty to have learned over many years, HOW to answer questions like yours, and BELIEVE that they make sense. You tried, and I admire your courage in having your own mind, and not backing down to your mom.

science's picture
I forgot to add...what

I forgot to add...what possible "lesson" could "God" want to teach little kids who are starving, and dying of disease, and abuse everyday, in the world that he created? How would it be THEIR fault if they are starving to death?

XyberEX's picture
She compared Jesus's

She compared Jesus's "sacrifice" on par with the death of Martin Luther King Jr. Let that sink in.

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