So I went home this Easter to my conservative christian parents. Since I had told them previously that I had "doubts" (it was a litmus test to see how they would react when I tell them I am an atheist later in life), they went out of their way to buy this gem for me, recommended by their pastor. Already there is some great stuff for me to tear apart.
I was reading a chapter called "Myths About the Search For Knowlege" and one thing in particular struck me as just plain stupid. On page 70, the author says, "To say faith gets in the way of reasoning stands facts on their heads. Reasoning itself depends on faith." First of all this is complete bullshit, but he goes on to explain why.
"Imagine that someone says to you, "All reasoning is baloney." He's wrong, of course, but can you prove it? Guess what? You can't." Well, guess what? I don't have to!
If someone makes the claim that all reasoning is baloney then the burden of proof falls on them. It is not the job of me to disprove that claim because I, by default, take the null hypothesis of saying, "I don't accept that all reasoning is baloney". The only way the claimant could prove that reasoning is baloney is by reason, thus creating a logical contradiction and, in turn, refuting his own claim.
That is just a little glimpse at what an atrociously stupid book this is. He also says that evolution is an opinion by claiming that it is a debated topic in science. Of course he backs it up by appealing to Dr. Michael J. Behe, an anti-evolutionist, and a creationist at that. I can't wait to read through it and tear down every single one of his points.
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Send them a gift...like "God Is Not Great" by Hitch or "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Harris. Wrap it up in gift paper with a bow. Mention that you will read the one they gave you if they do the same with the one you send. You might suggest having a calm and reasonable discussion afterwards.
@Garrett ......
Hold on .... let me get this straight...... you have told your parents that you have doubts .... and so knowing you are having crisis of faith (in your parents terms..).... they can offer you no advise.... but turn to their pastor for his view.....for his advice.
I'm sorry but I would find that a trifle dismissive.
When my kids turn to me...they get the benefit of my experience .... they get my accumulated knowledge.
I don't put their problems out to tender ..... subcontract their needs.
After all they might have had a different pastor with different views/priorities ...would they proffer those views as efficacious too .
Sorry to be so negative ..... but just how much responsibility for their families life are they willing to hand over to their shaman of choice ??
I have a post discussing my story behind telling them I had "doubts". They did not take it too lightly. They are trying to make me go back to church, so I went the first Sunday just to take pictures so I can send it to them to make it seem that I am still going. Luckily, they are buying it...for now.
Unfortunately it is fairly common for people to "not take it too lightly."
I have come to realize for many highly religious people, saying you are an atheist is a direct attack on values they hold most dear. Even if for most atheist it is not like that at all. These people may not even fully understand why it is, they just end up feeling very threatened, especially if it comes from their kid. (Certainly lots of the fear for can be pointed to the fact that some of these people believe you will burn in hell, and they wont be able to spend eternity with you in heaven. -Another of many logical flaws btw.)
One thing you got going for ya is, you know that at least in certain areas of your parents life they can be deluded on major issues. Perhaps you can easily delude them on this as well. Once you get past their "suspicious phase" a well constructed system of subterfuge in this area can be very effective, they desperately want to believe that you believe as they do, just feed that desperation some, and you can still have a relationship with your parents without dealing with all the religious crap every time you see them. Lying to parents (or anyone) sucks but it seems far more likely than convincing these people to see their own delusion. Or simply ending up not talking to each other anymore. You unfortunately get to be the adult in this situation.
Like others said, use the system against them, they believe in all knowing all powerful god, in their mind, if you are faking it, god already knows as he cannot be tricked. They think they have the inside line to this god, they think their prayers on occasion gets answered. Let them think that their prayer worked in this case and that you found their "god." They will also likely accept that you are not as quite as faithful as they are, as long as you are faithful enough in their definition that you will not burn in hell.
Just make sure your system is rock solid enough that it cannot be discovered by them long term. Once the game is up, you probably will not be able to trick them again.
And if you ever begin to wonder if you are wrong and they are right, just head back here, many of us here be happy to remind you all the ways any major religion is so completely ridiculous, and certainly not worth worshipping, giving up your sundays for, or giving money to.
Garrett, I support Watchman's position. Sorry that you're going through this. Keep doing what you're doing and fly under the radar if possible. Your folks will probably freak if they get the sense that you're an Atheist, so I'd be guarded until I was capable of weathering a storm of fearful, angry retribution from them.
Here's a bit of dorm room advice for the farm fresh Atheist: When you speak with them, you might find it necessary to sprinkle in the occasional "amen!" and "its a blessing!" and other code words and phrases that give your parents the blessed assurance they're apparently so hungry for. And if they seem doubtful, name your pillow god and mention that you spend time with god every evening; your integrity will be intact and they'll be mollified. Good luck out there.
@Truett I concur with Truett. Deter their suspicions with a bunch of Christian warm-fuzzies like the ones he mentioned, as well as conservative lawyer and undisputed Conservapedia ruler Andrew "Assfly" Schlafly's personal catchphrase, "Godspeed".
Watchman, your comment " shaman of choice" reminded me of when I first knew I was an atheist. My mom was going in for a brain operation. Her pastor (who I really didn't care for) was at the hospital. Just before they wheeled her in for the operation he held her hand and prayed over her. I realized that this gave her comfort. However, I distinctly remember thinking he could be wearing a feather headdress and shaking a bone and rattle over her to the same effect. Then I thought how sad to build your entire career on a lie. The operation was a success but it had nothing to do with superstitious mumbo jumbo.
I actually read books like that for fun. It is fun to watch them twist themselves into pretzels explaining why one should have faith with zero real world evidence.
Watch them create complex "word salads" to explain why reasoning and logic should not be used to question faith. (But instead try to train you how to use your reasoning skills to defend such a ridiculous idea that all major religions I know of represent.) The various bibles NT and old testament have thousands of contradictions and logic flaws, you could write an entire library on all the issues the various bibles have. It is easier than poking logic holes in a Michael Bay movie. (And poking logic holes in a Michael Bay movie is so incredibly easy it quickly becomes a chore trying to keep up with all of them as the movie goes on.)
Biblical scholars fascinate me. The incredible lengths they go to try and connect the real world of science and reasoning, to a book written thousands of years ago that has been heavily edited. The amount of effort they put into trying to make it all "work."
To me it is like serious, "college" educated people trying to connect a DR. Seuss book to reality, and why we should worship and follow the Lorax.
It would be the best comedy for me, but I also remember that untold billions actually believe this crap and commit atrocities large and small in that particular book/religion's name, and the comedy loses some it's luster as it sinks in how deluded so many people are.
Interesting idea. i might pick up one for a laugh. i already do this with christian radio
Just be sure to not buy the book new. (most are available for free anyways because of the agenda they are trying to push.) We do not want to support these crackpots financially, even if we do derive some value from the humour the pages have in them.
I'm with MCD on listening to Christian radio on occasion. It is a splendid reminder of the lunacy of the Christian faith and a grand display of the self delusion of which humans are capable.
@MCD I sometimes do it with creationist sites- but beware... some are so inaccurate, silly, and heavily-biased that they may kill you with laughter... like this one:
http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-creation/hovind-seminar_part4b_2007.html
My parents mutilated one of my gems.
Cheer up Harry, when you really need it.. It will RISE to the occasion lol
woooooowwww. okay
Garrett, are you still in school? Seems I remember your original installment in this site saying as much and not wanting to become too estranged at this time. Still, you're treading close to that edge and for no reason other than to be yourself. Tough choices to judge, I'd bet. Play it cool. Your folks are not the runway ahead of you but they do play a part in helping you fledge. I'd say the notion of balanced reciprocity is the order of the day for now. Good luck and don't let it irk you too much because it isn't as important as the road you're on.
2017??? Why?
ZTA
Zombie Thread Alert
aka
Dawn of the Dead Thread.
BEWARE!!! Something unlikely to be answered this way comes.....
In return, send them this gift: Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. Tell them to read it to "see how the enemy thinks". This will (hopefully) eliminate their suspicions and also allow them to maybe learn a thing or two about us atheists.
My girlfriend sent me home with crabs but I didn't complain...... right away. I got rid of them by shaving half my pubs and then soaking the other half in lighter fluid. I then lit the pubs on fire and when the crabs ran to the bald side I stabbed them with a fork. After that, I complained.
@Cog Okaaay...