4 States actually take action on gun control.

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mykcob4's picture
You don't know what you are

You don't know what you are talking about Grizzly. There was a kid whose moniker was Harry Truman. He was just like you and didn't know a damn thing. I have been in firefights. I have killed people and have been shot. I have experienced what I am talking about, unlike LaPierre and Trump who are both cowards and REFUSED to serve the nation.
1) You assume that the teacher will have enough time to unlock a save load a gun and take out a shooter.
2) You assume that a teacher will be able to take out a shooter long before the police arrive.
In a firefight, NOTHING is easy. EVER! I have been many many!
You are talking out of your ass!

The Grizzly Atheist's picture
They refused to serve the

They refused to serve the nation? First you claim that the hippies were great, but now opposing the war in nam is cowardice?

Also, 35,000 people die every year in car accidents, as opposed to 10 000 from guns, most of which are suicide.

And there were 2 deputies outside the school at the time who didn't do anything because, according to the supreme court, it isn't the police's job to protect us! So much for that.

Finally, the police never come onto the scene immediately.

LogicForTW's picture
Dude you are like talking

Dude you are like trying to talk to a billboard advertisement. You only say the same thing over and over, even when I and others explain to you that you got your facts, data, and conclusion completely wrong. You do not even try to defend yourself when we point out you got your numbers so obviously wrong you just go on repeating the same obviously factually wrong message.

You will even argue about assault rifle armed assailant combat scenarios you obviously cannot even begin to know anything about, with someone that has obviously served and been trained in such scenarios, and actually encountered such scenarios outside of training.

It is not 10k deaths from guns, it is 38k gun related deaths. for 2016. I have already pointed this out before to you. And suicides is another very compelling reason for sensible gun control.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
From what I heard, Trump

From what I heard, Trump neither protested nor served.

Both the protesters and the soldiers were defending their country the best way they knew how.

I keep thinking back to the movie "The Mission" - The Jesuits in, I think it was Brazil, were trying to defend the natives from being enslaved or killed by the Europeans. One brother was an ex-solider who killed a man for falling in love with the soldiers girlfriend.

To defend the natives, he hauled all of his weapons out of the ravine he had dumped them in. He asked the pacifist father to bless him. The father said he could not - "If I am right, my blessing would be meaningless. If you are right, you have no need of my blessing."

Tin-Man's picture
@Grizzly Re: "First off,

@Grizzly Re: "First off, there are these things called gun safes and gun locks. You keep the guns unloaded and locked, and if a shooter starts shooting up the school, the teacher can unlock the gun and load it. That way if the shooter comes into or near the classroom the teacher can kill him. When the police show up the teacher can put the gun away when they arrive. Easy."

*grooooan* Oh, holy shit.... Dammit. I have been trying my best to stay out of all the gun control discussions because - quite frankly - I am not on this site to discuss such matters. It is simply enough for me to read and learn from the various posts. But this particular remark of yours I simply could not let pass without correction.

It is extremely obvious from your statement you have absolutely ZERO experience with real-world armed confrontations. I, on the other hand, (like Myk) have a considerable amount of experience with it. And as much as I would like to be polite, I really have no choice but to say you are really talking out your ass with that statement. Because unless the teachers who are armed are either prior military (specialized combat unit, preferably) or prior law enforcement, they will be more likely to get themselves or an innocent person injured/killed than taking out the bad guy.

And keeping the weapons unloaded and locked in a gun safe??? Seriously?..... Holy hell, boy. *rolling eyes* Again, you have no clue.

Ya know, you may be some super-whiz concerning laws and constitutions and history and such. If so, then that is fantastic. But your casual attitude of, "The teacher kills the guy and then puts the gun away before the police arrive. EASY," actually made my stomach turn a little. Geeeez, man, that was simply ridiculous.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@TM

@TM
I wasn't going to comment as its is a US only issue but Grizzly's comment...boy oh boy a wannabe John Wayne complex there. The Ugly American brought to life and actually typing on a keyboard. I would have thought he would have strolled, spurs clanking into the Wells Fargo telegraph office and dictated his messages to the bespectacled clerk for transmission to the 'big city'.

And for the record I agree with your comment 100%. He made me throw up a little in my mouth when I read that summa cum laude bullshit.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
I missed the summa cum laude

I missed the summa cum laude reference in the above posts.

But don't bad mouth the "Ugly American."

The "Ugly American" of the book title refers to the book's hero, plain-looking engineer Homer Atkins, whose "calloused and grease-blackened hands always reminded him that he was an ugly man." Atkins, who lives with the local people, comes to understand their needs, and offers genuinely useful assistance with small-scale projects such as the development of a simple bicycle-powered water pump.[2]

The concept is why I got into engineering.

Hollis Evon Ramsey's picture
i'd like to agree with you

i'd like to agree with you here, Tin-man, but although your comment is heartfelt and clearly coming from a place of real-life experience, you did not provide factual evidence or examples for your mocking remarks.

pretend i'm a 5-year-old -- rather than scoffing at Grizzly's Best-Case Scenario projections, explain to me WHY the gun-safe suggestion is impractical. guide me through it. i cannot accept it on faith, or on eye-rolling reactions, or on Grizzly's so-obvious-to-you ridiculous talking out of his ass. i'm inexperienced, not ignorant, and i want to be enlightened. so please make an effort to educate me!

spell it out for me, as you would to a child sincerely wishing to know, WHY inexperienced armed people are more likely to hurt themselves or others, or to get themselves killed. be specific. what are the mistakes most commonly made, for instance? call it "Boot Camp for Dummies." i don't take offense at not knowing things. but i prefer having erroneous, stupid statements cleared up with reason, not emotion.

Tin-Man's picture
@Hollis

@Hollis

Hey there, Miss Hollis. How ya been? Hey, I would like to address your post, but I am short on time at the moment. Please give me a day or two, and I will try my best to answer your questions as you requested. Meanwhile, take care out there.

Hollis Evon Ramsey's picture
@Tin-man

@Tin-man

hey there, TM. i've been practicing brevity over on Twitter -- how am i doing? thanks for taking me seriously, as i'd love straight answers to those questions. you take care, too.

btw, i wrote a prayer a few hours ago, in honor of the Florida legislature's passing a BS law either allowing or mandating display of IGWT in public-school classrooms. i think y'all will like it:

"thanks to the god that we xtians trust in, for the St. Valentine's Day Massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. we xtians are ever so grateful for god's mercy in taking to its bosom so many of our students and faculty, and in such a horrific, pain-filled manner -- we are reminded during this time of Lent of the passion of the christ in this oh-so-special way. in its wisdom, our merciful god saw fit to martyr these people. how lucky for them! not many people have the great good fortune to be personally chosen by god for martyrdom! how much we do love the wonderful god in which we trust. amen."

"amen" translates as "so be it."

Tin-Man's picture
Part 1 of 3 My

Part 1 of 3 My “Qualifications” (My apologies for the delay. Busy weekend. Limited time to write.)

Before I get started, I would like to make a quick disclaimer. This post, along with the other parts that will soon follow, is being made only due to the polite and reasonable request of Miss Hollis for an explanation to a response I made to Grizzly concerning my objections to school teachers being armed in schools. And the only reason I made that response to Grizzly is because his remarks concerning the matter were such that I could not in good conscious allow it to go uncorrected. Otherwise, I had zero intentions of getting involved in any of the Gun Control discussions, as I did not join the AR to discuss such matters. With that in mind, please do not bother asking me about my political affiliations/beliefs or my personal opinions about gun control. I will politely decline to answer, and I will neither confirm nor deny any speculations made. I assure you they have no bearing whatsoever on the explanations I will be giving. Furthermore, I would like to make it clear the explanations I provide are based strictly on personal experience and training I have had over many years in a dangerous business. Does it make me an expert? I do not know. Some may say I am. Others may say I am not. Either way – quite frankly – I do not care. Personally, I do not consider myself an “expert”, only because I happen know and have worked with individuals whose skills and experience exceed mine by leaps and bounds. Nevertheless, at the end of the day that will be for you to decide, not me.

If I am to give an opinion on matters relating to weapons and the use of weapons in real-world situations, it is only fair to provide the reader with some background to allow him/her to evaluate the weight of my opinion(s). I will try to make this as brief as I possibly can…

I got my first BB gun when I was about six, and graduated to a .22 cal. rifle when I was about 8 or 9, and fired a pistol for the first time at age 7. I was taught proper firearm safety by my Grandfather and one of my uncles. Became rather skilled in the use of most any rifle/shotgun/pistol as the years progressed. Owned my first pistol at age 16 or 17. Most all my friends growing up were equally proficient in the use and handling of firearms. Matter of fact, it was not unusual during my high school years to see several student pickup trucks in the school parking lot with rifles and/or shotguns proudly displayed on racks hanging at the rear windows. And it was highly unusual to find a male in the building who did NOT have some sort of knife on his person. Hell, there were even certain females who could be counted on to be packing some sort of edged weapon. And even though there were many fights that took place between typical teenage students, there was never one that involved a knife or a firearm. Fists were the only “weapons” used. (But I digress…)

Fast-forward a bit. Graduated the police academy in 1992 with “Top Academic” and “Top Gun” awards. (There were 30-35 in the class.) Became a certified firearms instructor within four years after graduation. Became a Field Training Officer (FTO) and a certified Pressure Points Control Tactics (PPCT) instructor within five years after graduation. Attended a wide variety of High Risk Training (HRT) courses over the years ranging from Active Shooter Responder Courses, to Dynamic Entry Techniques, to Ballistic Shield Use, and many others. Developed, and assisted with the development of, several combat shooter courses used for annual firearms qualifications within the department. ALWAYS qualified EXPERT during annual firearms qualifications. Acted as an assistant academy instructor/role player during the Call Scenario Simulation portion of several police recruit academy classes.

In 1996 I joined the Army National Guard. Graduated Airborne School in 1997. Will say very little else about my military activities other than I deployed to Afghanistan once and Iraq twice. And although I was not Special Forces Qualified, during my service I did a considerable amount of training with and operated with Special Forces units and teams on a regular basis.

During my time on patrol, I was involved in several shooting incidents, was involved in more hand-to-hand confrontations than I care to remember, kicked in a number of doors during the serving of search warrants, and have crawled up into a number of attics in search of ARMED suspects. I have been beaten, run over, and shot at, and I have stepped over the dead bodies of co-workers/friends in search of the fuckers who ambushed them and gunned them down in cold blood.

So, does that make me an expert? Again, I don’t know and I don’t care. Regardless, what I DO know is that when somebody like little Boo-boo cubbie-bear (aka: “Grizzly”) starts making such remarks as he did in the off-handed casually flippant manner in which he did it, I DO believe that I am more than qualified to say he is TALKING OUT HIS ASS. Also, with all due respect, should anybody have a problem with my getting a little “emotional” about the whole thing then I say, “Tough shit.”

Parts 2 (Gun Safes) and 3 (Armed teachers) to follow soon.

LogicForTW's picture
I know your post was in reply

I know your post was in reply to miss Hollis request, but I read it in full, and seeing your experience, and now even more so, I am also interested in parts 2 and 3.

Your humbleness on the subject in the face of enormous experience around guns, to me, speaks volumes of your maturity and the likelihood that your personal take on parts 2 and 3 will be uncolored by bias and any possible agenda but filled with actual real world understanding through experience on the subject. Unlike nearly everyone else, (including myself,) that "armchair quarterbacks" spouting their inexperienced opinion.

mykcob4's picture
Ah but Tin-man to Grizzly and

Ah but Tin-man to Grizzly and people like him that makes you either a liar or a bonafide tea-bagging freedom coalition FOX watching Rush listening Drudge reading bright red conservative. If you don't agree with their politics your service is denigrated by them, Like Trump does to McCain.

Tin-Man's picture
@Myk

@Myk

If it makes you feel any better, Myk, I do not watch ANY news if I can possibly help it. LOL

(Edited to add...)

Besides, it really does not matter to me what or how they think of me. I'm fine either way. *chuckle*

Tin-Man's picture
Part 2 of 3 Gun Safes in

Part 2 of 3 Gun Safes in Schools (My apologies for the length of this thing.)

From what I have read thus far, a few folks have already addressed this problem to a certain degree. Good. Glad to see there are others on here thinking clearly. For the sake of reinforcing their points, they will be included in this post so that all relevant information will be consolidated into one place rather than scattered about the thread. Let’s get the obvious problem out of the way first…

COST - I am not an accountant, nor do I have any exact figures to provide on how many schools there are in the U.S. to be equipped with gun safes. Nevertheless, it does not require a genius in economics to quickly grasp the idea that the cost of such a venture would end up being damn near astronomical. How many millions of schools are there? How many safes would be required for each school? And, speaking of safes, what type should be used? Allow me a moment to expand on that…

Type of Safe Necessary – Although I am definitely no expert on the subject, I think we can all agree that kids (particularly teenagers) are especially curious, mischievous, and crafty. (I was both a kid and a teenager at one time in my life.) And in an ideal world we like to think children/teenagers would NEVER attempt to gain access to a firearm they KNOW is in the room with them. If we were in that ideal world, though, we obviously would not be having these discussions. Therefore, any type of safe installed in a classroom for gun storage would have to be permanently and SECURELY mounted (either embedded into the wall structure or – at the very least – heavily bolted to the floor and/or wall). On top of that, the safe itself would have to be of a high quality comparable to bank style safes. Your typical Walmart style or local sporting goods store style gun safes will NOT be suitable. And I don’t know how many of you have checked prices on such safes lately, but I promise they are not cheap. Hence, we are back at how much it will cost to install millions of such safes all across the country. And remember, we are talking about many school systems that can BARELY pay their teachers a reasonable salary and are scraping by on the bare necessities for teaching due to lack of educational funding. Now let’s discuss combination lock or key lock…

Combination or key? – To put it bluntly, both options SUCK.
Keys: Can easily be lost, stolen, and copied. People are human (teachers included). We forget things and lose things. Teacher Johnson gets to school that morning and checks his pocket and realizes, “Aw, crap. Where is my safe key?” Whoopsie. No big deal, though, right? How many faculty members in the school have access to the same safe? Meaning there are that many more keys floating around to potentially fall into the hands of unauthorized personnel (i.e. Students). Substitute teacher day because Teacher Johnson is off sick or on vacation. Do we give the sub teacher a key to the gun safe? (Rhetorical question.) Certainly, I totally agree there are exceptions out there who are incredibly responsible and take their assigned tasks/responsibilities very seriously. I would like to think I would be one of them. However, they are the EXCEPTIONS. And no matter how incredibly good they may be, they are still human and subject to the same human lapses and mistakes.

Combination locks: The gun safe in installed and Teacher Johnson places his chosen firearm inside the safe (Unloaded, of course, for the sake of those who are “safety conscious”. *rolling eyes*), closes the safe securely, and goes on about his days/weeks/months teaching his class. Show of hands: Anybody here ever been in a hurry trying to open a combination lock because you are running late for class or something? Personally, I know it has sometimes taken me two or three tries to get into my school locker under that very scenario. Matter of fact, I have two or three combination safes here at home I regularly open for various reasons. And even with that, it sometimes takes me a moment to remember the combinations and a couple of attempts to open them (that is without any stress whatsoever). So, imagine you are Teacher Johnson (who maybe opens the safe only a couple of times a month… maybe) teaching a class one afternoon and suddenly shots ring out down the hallway from your classroom door. Initially, there is a delay of several seconds while the brain attempts to process exactly what you just heard. (Average Joe does not like believing bad things can happen to him, and attempts to find alternate explanations.) Next, once you finally realize, “Oh, shit. Those were gunshots,” there is a brief moment of panic within yourself, along with all the yelling and screaming that will be coming from your students. First reaction after that will be a natural instinct to calm the students. Finally, you remember, “Oh, yeah, I have a gun in the safe.” By now, many, many precious seconds have been wasted. But, wait! It gets better! Now, in the midst of all the panic, yelling, screaming, and gunshots, you have to remember the safe combination and then successfully work the combination wheel in the proper manner to get the safe open. (Good luck with that, by the way, as your fine motor skills almost completely vanish during such high-stress situations.) Assuming you are lucky enough to get the safe open in time, you then have to load the weapon, chamber a round, and then find a place on your person to put your spare magazines so that they will be easily accessible if needed. Chances are, however, you will never have to worry about that, because by now you are probably already dead anyway. Why? Because it is very likely the shooter will already know exactly who the teachers are who have gun safe access and would be going after them as first targets. ( Keep in mind, we are assuming the teacher is even in the classroom at the start of the shooting and not on break, at lunch, or in the bathroom taking a piss. Same applies for key safes.) And, as with the keys, how many people have the safe combination? Do they have super memories, or is the combination written down somewhere? Well, I think we all know the answer to that. And whenever something like that is written down, you can rest assured it can be accessed by unauthorized personnel (i.e. Students). What if the regular teacher quits? Now you have a gun safe in a room just sitting idle, unless the school hires a replacement teacher who is authorized to handle a weapon. And then it would only be prudent to change the combination.(Or key)

Oh, and for those of you who may be thinking they could use the electronic keypad combination safes…. There is no way in hell I would rely on one of those things in a modern day classroom with the tech-savvy kids we now have. In my opinion, might as well leave the thing wide open. Not to mention what do you do if the bad guy is smart enough to cut the power before starting the party? Battery backups? Who maintains them throughout the year(s)? For that matter, who will pay to have the safes regularly maintained in general?

I could probably go on about this a good bit more, but as is evident, the logistics alone are enough to be mind-boggling. And the lack of practicality is downright scary. Now try applying these things to the millions of schools across the country. While at first glance, on the surface the gun safe idea may seem like a reasonable concept to those who have no experience with critical high-stress situations. In my opinion, though, the concept is just sheer madness and foolishness.

Edit: I would like to make a correction to the number of schools I mentioned in this post. After a quick Google search several days after posting, I learned there are actually only roughly 130,000 schools (not counting colleges, trade schools, universities) and just a little over three million teachers distributed among those schools. My apologies for the exaggerated numbers in the post.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Tin Man

@ Tin Man

Thanks for exposing the absolute bullshit I read and hear from these "just buy a gun" dills. They are dishonest, psychotic cave men wishing they were alpha males. The fact is in any shooting they would be the first under cover whimpering and pleading for someone to come help. If we were unlucky enough to find they actually had a weapon I would be more frightened of them loosing off rounds at anything moving than them taking a solid bead on the shooter.

If you were a politician I would vote for you, as it is I can only wish for the 100,000 likes button, Well said mate.

Tin-Man's picture
Just a little update,

Just a little update, everybody. Working on Part 3 at the moment. I must warn you, though, it will be a long one. May even have to break it up into a couple of separate posts. Even with trying to stick to very basic points, there are an incredible number of important points to cover. Anyway, just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about it. Just having to write a little on it here and there as I get a chance.

Tin-Man's picture
Part 3A. of 3 Armed Teachers

Part 3A. of 3 Armed Teachers (Introduction)

(Pull up a chair and get comfy, folks. This could take a few minutes. Once again, my apologies for the length.)

Okay, I will go ahead and warn you right now, there is no simple way of explaining any of this. As with the gun safe idea, on the surface the arming of teachers in schools may seem like a very simple and reasonable solution. As I am about to demonstrate, however, things are just a tad more complicated than simply strapping a pistol to the hip of your typical American educator. There are so many factors and considerations involved that I am going to break this up into three posts. (3A. “Introduction“; 3B. “Logistics”; and 3C. “Mentality/Mindset/Qualifications”) Even if I had you in a classroom giving you a presentation in person, it could potentially last over an hour or more. (It would certainly be much easier, at least. Plus, I would probably enjoy it more. Anyway…) Therefore, I will try to touch upon only the most critical key points. And even with that limitation this will be considerably lengthy, yet still barely scratch the surface of all factors to be considered. Also, I would like to reiterate that what I am telling you is strictly my own personal opinion based on my training and experience. Other than using Google to find out how many schools and teachers there are in the U.S., I have done zero research in regards to the information you are about to read. Quite literally, all that follows is coming straight out of my head from memory. That being said, I encourage anybody reading this to NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR EVERYTHING THAT IS STATED. Please, compare what I say to other reliable/experienced sources. And I would welcome any constructive feedback, as I am well aware I do not know everything, and there are likely other considerations I could have missed.

For the sake of simplification, please allow me a moment to establish a set of general “parameters”, and to “scale down” the scope to a more comprehensive level. Rounding off a bit, the total number of schools in the U.S. is roughly 130,000 (This does not include trade schools, colleges, or universities.) with roughly three million teachers for those schools. That gives us an average school size of 23 teachers per school. For the sake of easy math, let’s use 24 teachers. (Conveniently, this is only slightly smaller than the high school from which I graduated, and this will be the size of school I use for this discussion.) Bear in mind, there are distinct/unique pros and cons to both larger and smaller schools. In other words, all schools cannot and must not be clumped together as being the same in regards to security. (More on that later.)

Next, let’s determine a reasonable number of armed teachers we would need for our average-size school. (By the way, in Part 3C. we will try to determine if that number would even be possible to fulfill when considering the qualifications/abilities of the average teacher.) Now, some folks might say, “Hell, arm them ALL!” To that I would reply, “Well, some folks are stupid.” Anyway, half might be good, but realistically damn near impossible in most cases. So, let’s be generous and say we MIGHT be able to arm one-third of the teachers. That gives us eight (8) armed teachers for our average-size school. So far, so good, right? (Oh, just so you know, I am intentionally not including the principal or other school employees/staff. Trying to keep this simple, remember?)

Let’s see…. We now have an average-size school with 24 teachers with 8 of those teachers being armed. What else do we need to consider? Oh, high school or elementary school? As with the size of the school, the type of school will also determine much of the protocols/procedures the teachers must follow not only during an incident, but also during day-to-day routine. And that is a whole other discussion unto itself. For the purpose of this post, though, we will use the typical high school, as it is the worst-case scenario. (In my opinion.) Okay, so I believe that is enough of a decent foundation to finally get us started. And as you can see, we haven’t even gotten started and there are already a number of major factors to consider. I will go ahead and get this posted for now, and start working on Part 3B. “Logistics.” I will get it written and posted as soon as I can.

Tin-Man's picture
Part 3B. of 3 Armed Teachers

Part 3B. of 3 Armed Teachers (Logistics)

Probably the most efficient way for me to do this will be using bullet points (pardon the pun), and maybe have a note or two with them where some explanation is needed. Keep in mind, not everything listed will necessarily inhibit/prohibit the arming of teachers. Some things might even seem a bit “trivial.” Nevertheless, they are things that MUST BE considered when dealing with matters of this magnitude. And although one or two small items may not seem like such a big deal on their own, you have to look at the overall cumulative effect when they are all combined into one. Think of it this way… Say you stick your arm through a broken window and cut it on a piece of the broken glass. Ouch, of course, but not that big a deal, even if you need three or four stitches. Now say you get that same cut in multiple places on your body all at the same time. “Uh, Houston, we have a problem.” Even if not immediately life-threatening, it will still be a rather disconcerting dilemma. So, something that may seem very small and insignificant can sometimes have a rather large impact.

Okay, to give a mentally manageable base for those who might want to do some calculations, I will use the city where I worked as an example. (Even though the high schools there are much larger than average.) As a rough estimate, I will be conservative and say there are…. hmmm…. sixteen (16) high schools within the city limits. Notice I am not counting any of the dozens of elementary or middle schools. (Different animals, remember?) Using our average-size school of eight (8) armed teachers in each school, we now have one hundred twenty eight (128) armed high school teachers within the city school district. Cool. Now, that gives us 128 pistols with three magazines for each pistol. Magazine capacities vary greatly, but for our purposes let’s use magazines with a ten-round capacity. That will be thirty (30) rounds per teacher, and that will give us 3840 rounds of ammunition to supply all the teachers for daily carry. Oh, and we will also need belts, belt keepers, holsters, and magazine pouches. A set of handcuffs for each armed teacher would be great, and a radio for each armed teacher would be absolutely fantastic for the obvious purpose of communication/coordinating with each other during an incident. Aw, hell. Let’s just go to the bullet points…. (By the way, these will be in no particular order. Just writing them down as they come into my head.)

• Weapon type: Semi-auto pistol. High-capacity. Three magazines.
• Holster type: 1. Level 3 security (or greater) 2. Carried on sturdy gun belt securely attached to teacher
• Who will provide the weapons, ammo, and all other equipment? (School system or individual teacher?)
• All teachers in school district carry same issued weapon, or personal preferrence? (On this, I STRONGLY suggest ALL teachers in a district carry the SAME weapon. (Why? 1. Makes group training considerably easier and more uniform 2. Armed teachers can use the same ammo/magazines of any other teacher in the school/district 3. Allows for easier repair/replacement of damaged/worn weapons 4. No cross-training necessary for different types of weapons)
• Will armed teachers receive additional “Hazard Pay”? (Consider that many/most school systems within the U.S. often struggle to pay teachers a reasonable regular salary.)
• Weapons carry: Open or concealed? (1. The type of security holster required would make concealed carry damn near impossible 2. Armed teachers who are female would (in most cases) have to drastically change their daily wardrobe, even if concealed carry. No dresses or skirts, in other words 3. Open-carried weapons will naturally be a distraction in the classroom 4. Reality check: How drastically will the attitude and demeanor of students change toward a teacher carrying a firearm on his/her hip? Be honest. MANY variations for this particular point.)
• Simply going through a basic shooter qualification course WILL NOT BE ENOUGH! Advanced Combat Shooter Courses would be a MUST! Furthermore, those types of courses should be repeated on a regular basis.
• WHO WILL PAY FOR THOSE COURSES? (Oh, by the way, most of the shooting courses I have ever attended outside departmental training usually cost me around $250 to $500 and required a minimum of 250 rounds - and up to 600 hundred rounds - of ammunition per course. (Ammo supplied by the individual shooter.)
• When will teachers attend training? (1. Ideally send armed teachers to training all at one time 2. Obviously would have to be a time when school is out for everybody 3. Qualifications annually (minimal) or semi-annually (ideal) 4. Coordination training should also be conducted on actual school grounds using various scenario drills (no students present) 5. Active shooter drills conducted with students present)
• Who will train the teachers? (1. Local Police? 2. Private contractor? Government agency?)
• Full psychological evaluations before teacher allowed to be armed
• Unarmed Self-defense and weapons retention training MANDATORY
• Use of Lethal Force Guidelines (Will vary from state to state)
• Will armed teachers be issued personal body armor?
• Classrooms of armed teachers strategically placed throughout school
• Lunch/break period and school function considerations (example: DO NOT WANT all armed teachers sitting together at one table in lunchroom during lunch times. Naturally, this will be either easier or more difficult to manage depending on the size of the school.)
• Responding police teams would have to revise all of their Active Shooter Training to accommodate for the armed teachers on scene. (A total nightmare, by the way. More on that later in Part 3C.)

Ladies and gentlemen, even with all of this, I have barely scratched the surface. Quite honestly, this is a little frustrating for me because I am doing my best to keep this SIMPLE. Yet, here we are. Another long-ass post. Again, these are just the basic considerations off the top of my head. Now, are any of the items I mentioned total show-stoppers toward the arming of our teachers? Honestly, no, not really. However, in my opinion, they are an absolute BARE MINIMUM of the issues I would want addressed if I had a child in a school with an armed teacher. And, keep in mind we have not even gotten into the Mentality/Qualifications segment yet. Gonna go ahead and post this now, even though it is not really everything I wanted to say. I’ll start working on Part 3C. as soon as I can.

Tin-Man's picture
Hey, quick question for

Hey, quick question for anybody who reads this: Is there anybody still interested in hearing anything else about the armed teachers? Just curious before I get started on the final part.

LogicForTW's picture
@Tin-man

@Tin-man
I am interested. I have learned lots about a subject I am obviously interested in, (why arming teachers is a bad idea.) And you covered multiple issues I have not even considered.

You mentioned in the beginning that you were just going to post and did not want to go into discussion on it, so I am guessing people respected that by mostly just reading it and not commenting on it.

Obviously I do not expect you to put the work in for a long write up for me or anyone else. The person that originally requested your detailed explanation, as far as I know, has not responded again.

This thread has lots of replies, you could post your final answer at the bottom of the thread as reply to the OP, then the postings look shorter has its not as "long" due to the narrowing of the posting area.

On a side note, I always wondered if tRump could top him self when it comes to stupid ideas, (his old record holder of stupid ideas being: a giant wall that Mexico would pay for.) And he managed to do it with the arming teachers idea.

Not to mention the Florida school shooting had an armed and extensively trained deputy in the building at the time the shooting started, and there was supposed to been another in the adjacent building, but was away training at the time. And that this deputy is in hot water right now for literally following what the training told him to do. All of which is further pointing out serious issues with the idea in general of the effectiveness of having armed staff in a school building.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic Re: "You mentioned

@Logic Re: "You mentioned in the beginning that you were just going to post and did not want to go into discussion on it..."

Hey, my apologies for the misunderstanding on that. I said that in reference to my very first post toward Boo-boo bear. And while I have no desire nor intentions of discussing politics or gun control issues, I would actually welcome any feedback and/or questions concerning my recent posts about Armed Teachers. As I have said, it is a little frustrating for me because there are so many things I have to cut out and leave only partially explained in the interest of "brevity". ("What? THAT'S what you call brief???" Yeah, I know...) Therefore, should anybody want any expansion on any points I have made, or if they have anything else they want an opinion on in regards to the matter, then I will be happy to field any questions or hear any alternate opinions. Again, sorry I did not make that clear earlier.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Yes please.

Yes please.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic and Old Man

@Logic and Old Man

Cool, guys. Thanks. Give me a couple of days. Been busy lately.

Tin-Man's picture
Part 3C. of 3 Armed

Part 3C. of 3 Armed Teachers (Mentality/Mindset/Qualifications) Segment 1 of 2

Well, we have finally reached the last installment in my apparently epic saga. In this episode we will be exploring the MINIMUM psychological traits and skill sets I would personally DEMAND in an Armed Teacher charged with the protection of my child (if I had one) in a school setting. We will also consider many of the factors said armed teacher would face during day to day routine activities and during an actual shooting incident. As much as I would love to provide multiple scenarios within various school settings, that is simply not possible in this format. Therefore, I will have to make do with using my average-size high school in a “Best Case” and a “Worst Case” example. I will also try to give a brief overview of the different considerations between large/small schools, and elementary/high schools. And, as stated in Part 3B., there will have to be some adjustments to the training of police officers responding to Active Shooter calls with armed teachers on the scene. I will touch on that problem a bit, too.

Before we continue, please do me a little favor. Think back to your high school and elementary school days. As best you can, try to remember all of your teachers and do a quick assessment of their personalities. And for those of you who may currently have kids in school, also do the same for as many of the teachers you know in your child’s school. Take your time doing this. We will get back to it toward the end of Segment 2 of 2.

Oh, one other little detail I would like to address real quick. I heard or read something mentioned about using teachers who are prior military and/or prior police. Great idea, obviously. Here’s the problem, though. First, most anybody who was ever prior law enforcement would rarely (and I mean RARELY) end up as a teacher. Not impossible, mind you, just not very likely. Incredibly small percentage, in other words. On the other hand, there is a really good chance for a person with prior military experience being a teacher, as many people today join the military primarily for the college money and exit the military to pursue their primary career choice. Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, just because a person is prior military DOES NOT necessarily indicate that individual is suitable for being armed in a school full of kids. Believe me, I have served with MANY I would hesitate to trust with even an inert “rubber duck” training rifle. (Look it up.) Therefore, we have an incredibly small percentage of prior-military teachers with suitable training/qualifications/experience. (Pretty sure Myk and some of the other ex-military guys can back me up on that.) So, how does this translate to our school district of 16 average-size high schools consisting of 128 armed teachers? Well, I do not have any exact figures/percentages, but if I were being VERY generous, I would say we MIGHT have eight to ten teachers meeting the ex-police and qualified prior-military criteria. Pretty damn negligible, I would say. (Personal opinion.)

Now to the meat of it: Proper mindset and attitude. Without going into too much detail, there is a considerable difference between carrying a weapon around for personal protection and being tasked to carry a weapon for the purpose of protecting others. I know this, because I have carried a weapon of some fashion or another on my person pretty much every single day of my adult life. And I have carried one for both purposes mentioned. Again, without going into much detail, allow me to let you in on a little secret: Carrying a weapon on a daily basis is an ABSOLUTE BURDEN AND INCONVENIENCE. Period. It is not fun. It is not macho. It does not make a person some sort of invincible badass. Anybody who believes otherwise should never be allowed to carry a firearm outside their own home. (Personal opinion.) Sadly, many do. But that could be a topic for a whole other discussion. Anyway, back to proper mindset and attitude relating to armed teachers…

For all practical purposes, any armed teacher would effectively become “school police”, meaning a teacher would have to develop a “Police Mentality” to some degree. No real way to avoid it. With that in mind, what exactly IS “Police Mentality”? Well, for starters, it was something that had to be pounded into me over four months in a police academy, and then during twelve weeks on patrol riding with – and being evaluated by – a Field Training Officer. But even all of THAT served only to provide a very basic foundation for the mindset and skills I had yet to develop. Here are just a few off the top of my head. (No particular order, and definitely NOT all-inclusive.)….

• Constant threat assessment (Must become as automatic and unconscious as breathing)
• Keen situational awareness (Also must become automatic/intuitive)
• Minimize tunnel vision caused by extreme stress
• Being able to maintain clear and rational thinking regardless of whatever chaos may be happening around you
• Controlling emotions (Deal with the problem at hand. Emotions can wait until later.)
• Split-second decision making under the most adverse conditions
• An almost “sixth sense” ability to immediately determine whether something is wrong or right in any given situation
• A healthy measure of paranoia (Everything and Everybody is a potential threat until determined otherwise. In other words, NEVER let down your guard.)
• A self-confident and authoritative attitude that projects loud and clear, “I OWN the space I occupy! DO NOT try me!”, yet it is wrapped in a deceptively relaxed and casual demeanor

Notice the things I have listed are things that CANNOT be taught from a book in a classroom. These are instincts and observational skills that can only be learned over a period of several months – and sometimes years – through regular exposure to a wide variety of high-stress hazardous situations. And believe me, there were many trial and error mistakes made along the way. (I have scars to prove it.) Now, aside from these vital “Police Mentality” skills, there is another psychological factor to consider. Anybody ever heard of “Warrior Mentality”? For those not familiar with it, here is a VERY BRIEF and VERY GENERAL overview:

• While everybody else is running away from the threat, you should be advancing toward it and actively seeking to engage it
• NEVER give up. As long as you have a breath left in you and are able to function, STAY IN THE FIGHT. Just because you are hit (shot) or injured does NOT necessarily mean you are out of the game.
• Stand your ground. You DO NOT back down. You OWN the space you occupy
• (And here is an important one.) You prefer NOT to fight. But if given no other option, be decisive. Hit fast. Hit hard. Finish it quickly. The longer a fight lasts, the greater the chances you will lose.

It is interesting to note that it is possible to have a “Police Mentality” without having a “Warrior Mentality” and vice versa. Obviously, any person assigned to protect a school full of children would ideally possess both of these mindsets… (in a perfect world). Oh, and even more so than a “Police Mentality”, the “Warrior Mentality” is something that can DEFINITELY not be taught in a classroom. Just ask any professional fighter or anybody who has ever been in a military combat unit.

On that note, I will end this segment and go ahead and get this posted so I can start on the final portion. Meanwhile, I will leave you with a little something else to consider. It concerns sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. Some of you may already be familiar with it, but it is still good to read again. For those who have not heard of it, LTC Dave Grossman is far better at explaining it than I could ever hope to do.

http://treehouseletter.com/2015/01/30/the-sheep-the-wolf-the-sheepdog-lt...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Tin Man

@ Tin Man

Cogent, accurate piece Tin Man. I congratulate and admire you for this. Thankyou.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man and Logic

@Old Man and Logic

Hey, quick question. This whole armed teacher subject is becoming more of a project than I expected. If I were to take the stuff I have already posted and transfer over to it's own thread, do you think anybody would be interested in discussing it? Even with trying to keep things as brief as possible, I could write a freakin' book about this stuff. Plus, I would really be interested in some feedback to keep me honest and make sure I'm not spewing a bunch of garbage. Let me know what you think. Still working on the supposed "last part", and every time I write one thing, two or three more factors/considerations pop into my head. I guess I just sorta feel like it is being wasted in the middle of this thread.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
DO IT> writing is a lot like

DO IT> writing is a lot like defecating, when its urgent you have to do it, and then, you can enjoy the rest of the flow. After that write every day.

Seriously do it as a blog. You have so much good sense in that one thread.It is timely, you have credibility and a rare knack of being and ex cop without being a completely corrupt asshole.

I will be happy to edit and redline for you and send back for you to mull over.

You have a talent. DO NOT WASTE IT.

( oh btw, I am a complete monster when editing, my red lines are dipped in the blood of vampire grammar infants)

With love,

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

If you dont do this as a blog or series I shall empoly all my psychic powers to turn alabama into a racist hotbed of christian bible thumping grit loving, bbq loving, rifle toting arseholes of the 7th degree of kuk klux Cannery.

Also Mar-lon you pig pen licking privileges will be withdrawn.

Write it. Write it. Write it. Any help you need just ask me.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "....to turn

@Old Man Re: "....to turn alabama into a racist hotbed of christian bible thumping grit loving, bbq loving, rifle toting arseholes of the 7th degree of kuk klux Cannery."

Hate to burst your bubble, but you just described Alabama as it already is. ROFLMAO!!!

Seriously, though, I don't blog (whatever that is), but I'm about to transfer my stuff from this thread to its own thread on this site. Just finished the "final" part.

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