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@david Killens
"But what I was witnessing was one end of an extreme" What makes you say that this is one end of an extreme? How do you qualify your statement? What makes you such an expert at this being one end of the extreme?
"My point is (and it is just my opinion) that under the large umbrella of christianity or Islam, or any other religion, there exist extremes." Agreed.
"Own your religion, and own all that happens under the name of Islam. I am sure you disagree with their viewpoints and actions, but they took their beliefs from the very same book you do" Saying that is like saying just because 2 students are studying in the same math class but person A thinks 3x1= 4 but person B says it =3 all of sudden they both speak in the name of math. Sorry, but what last statement of yours does not make sense and throws person B under the same bus as person A. Islam is the same way, just because some people say its in the name of islam, does not mean it truly is.
@Searching for truth
"Own your religion, and own all that happens under the name of Islam. I am sure you disagree with their viewpoints and actions, but they took their beliefs from the very same book you do" Saying that is like saying just because 2 students are studying in the same math class but person A thinks 3x1= 4 but person B says it =3 all of sudden they both speak in the name of math. Sorry, but what last statement of yours does not make sense and throws person B under the same bus as person A. Islam is the same way, just because some people say its in the name of islam, does not mean it truly is."
NO, what you are basically doing is going back to your well used position that ... "they are not true Muslims."
First off, using math as a comparison is not valid, because math is precise and not open to interpretation. There is only one answer, 4.
Your Koran, the bible, and other religious texts are imperfect, they are flawed. In the bible or Koran you can find one page that preaches humility, peace, and forbearance, while on the next page you can find murder, intolerance, and cruelty. Additionally, I am certain with high confidence that you learned your religion on your mother's knee, which means you followed the religion in the geographical area you were raised in. You did not choose your religion, your community chose what religion you had to follow.
I had the honor to have dinner just last Friday with some wonderful people, Muslims from Pakistan. We did touch a bit discussing religion, but in the end, we all agreed that the solution to many of today's ills are diplomacy, not violence. That is their perspective, because the community they were raised in practiced that interpretation of the Koran. In another part of Pakistan, some communities hold a different interpretation on the Koran, one of violent fundamentalism.
That is my point, that with an imperfect book it is open to various interpretations, each one which could be considered "right". They use the same book, they study it diligently, spend countless hours discussing that book, but their final conclusion differs from yours.
When it comes to religion, there is not just one conclusion, everything is cherry-picked to suit the person, to fit their agenda and beliefs imparted on them by others.
I suggest you read up and study "No true Scotsman" because you are beating this fallacy to death, and the great majority of atheist debaters in here recognize your failed tactics.
@sheldon
“What a truly appalling thing to say, you owe him an apology”. No, I don’t since I was talking about his profile pic and not him personally. Same way people have called me the Hulk. I see you are definitely a SJW. Funny how Cog didn’t seem to mind and most likely knew what I meant yet, you are here complaining about it.
“Are you saying that version doesn't exist? What makes you right and them wrong?” go read the original and authentic texts then decide for yourself. Oh, wait, sorry you are a religious scholar in every religion and already know everything.
“Any chance you'll grow up and answer some questions” Not likely.
“or is evasion and ad hominem all you have?” If that’s what you classify it as then the answer is yes
“I'm fairly certain Tin-man was being ironic” I know he was but, that doesn’t mean what he said wasn’t true. So, what’s your point?
Actually; I'm on "Searching for Truth's" side on this one. I don't care if the avatar is insulted. It's a frigging monkey. Even though we are distant cousins, he never calls or writes. I don't get invited to birthday parties or graduations and frankly the last time I saw a family of monkeys they were doing exactly what Searching for Truth is doing, Flinging Poo. I can not take this person seriously any more. Searching for Truth is a TROLL.
“Any chance you'll grow up and answer some questions” Not likely.
-----------------------------
The first honest reply you've given.
Your smug posturing as some sort of religious scholar is pretty funny, whilst your claims are shown to be roundly contradicting the koran. It's hilarious to watch you squirm, almost as hilarious as the moronic old chestnut that an omniscient deity is a monoglot..Is the best you have to offer really the lying straw man fallacy that I have claimed to be a religious scholar? As pathetic as it is predictable, you're a clown, who makes grandiose claims about his delusional beliefs, then when questioned tries to hide behind glib vapid cliches.
"No, I don’t since I was talking about his profile pic and not him personally."
Nice try, but his profile pic isn't a monkey. Then again I'm arguing with a muscle bound moron, just your pic geddit.
@Muaskhis
“Now, what bothers me the most, is how easily a 'Good theist' can become a 'Bad theist', as deemed by his own peers.”. I completely agree with you on this point. However, saying theist is a very broad term if you would like, give me an example of what you mean when it comes to Islam (since I am a Muslim) and let’s see if there is something else we can agree on. Or at the very least talk about and see what makes sense.
“If anything, it seems to show the apparent inability of religion to ensure moral behavior. As well as people judging others with the same set of beliefs, based on ... well, it can't be the same set of beliefs now, can it?” It seems you are taking out human’s nature to be biased, ignorant, stupid and misunderstanding as well as misinterpreting the religion based off their own short comings or personal gain.
“Then, what could be more important than religion to even religious folks?” and “It becomes painfully apparent, how religion has nothing to do with morals” Again, you are leaving the human element out and simply blaming religion for everything rather than the people or that specific person.
“It's the same as admitting that your religion is flawed, and needs a correction.” Agreed but, you can come to the conclusion that a religion is “is flawed, and needs a correction” until you have truly understood it. .
“Doesn't sound like the perfect word of God, that religion claims itself to be, now does it?” Depends on the religion you are talking about
@sheldon
I'll be honest, you Islamic hate game is super weak it makes me feel bad for you and yes, I will pray for you. You're entire post with your out of context verse is simply sad. When I say Muslims I am not talking about the isis extremist types. Notice how everything you ever say about any religion always takes the extremists and focuses on them, when they are an extreme minioriy but, keep look at the minority and judge everyone the same. Good luck
According to you, repeatedly burning people's skin off is not torture. If that is not the view of an extremist, I shudder to think what makes you call ISIS "extremist".
" Notice how everything you ever say about any religion always takes the extremists and focuses on them, "
Wed, 07/18/2018 - 11:05 (Reply to #22)
Sheldon "Absurd nonsense, clearly there are Muslims who believe this very thing, to deny it is **as absurdly stupid as trying to pretend all Muslims are the same.**
Well there you go, all your sententious self righteous religious posturing is pretty meaningless when you tell yet another blatant lie, and my post is on this very page as well, so everyone can see that you have just lied, again.
@saporo
Where did I say " repeatedly burning people's skin off is not torture."?
You previously said that "I can't speak for Christians but, Muslims do not believe in torturing anyone who does not believe in Allah."
But Islamic doctrine says that those who do not worship Allah should be tortured.
@Truth Seeker
1) Well, I hope we can all agree, that everyone of us can think of at least few examples from our own experiences. Also, not overly educated in Islam, which is why I tried to keep it in a common perspective. But since you asked, well... OK, please educate this ignorant individual on how Muslims treat rapists/their victims.
2&3) That is exactly my point there. Religion either doesn't address these issues at all, or is otherwise incapable of instilling moral behavior on it's subjects. And not just the extremist Muslims, there is plenty of Christian convicts, that have committed their crimes despite knowing them to be against their religious beliefs. Also, I'm not blaming the religion, or at the very least it's not my intention behind my words here. I'm just pointing out it's inability to teach people morals. Which leads me to:
4&5) Religion must, thus, be fundamentally flawed. Otherwise a perfect word of a God, should you wish to believe one, would be unerring, perfect an have instilled the perfect moral behavior on it's subjects.
As for 'depends on religion' part, oh dear...
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-j-curzer/when-sacred-texts-say-ter...
^ this is how modern religions operate. If you have 'fixed' your texts, following the described ways, it just proves my point. It just means theists themselves have admitted to the 'imperfections' of God.
And if you claim to follow some literal interpretation, that is even worse. Most extremists seem to do so too.
@Muashkis,
“please educate this ignorant individual on how Muslims treat rapists/their victims.”
Before answering your question let me start by asking you, how would you treat a rapist? God forbid you or a loved was raped, and you were the judge, what punishment would you hand down? I googled some stats on rapes per year in the US and found many different stats, from as low as 95,730 rapes per year (I think this is way too low) all the way to up to 400,000 rape cases per year. These stats did not take in to account rapes that go unreported. Other stats I found that as low as 48% and as high as 60% of rapists, end up raping again within 3-7 years with the highest rate a repeat offenders being pedophiles which target kids below the age of 12. You can do your own research if you don’t believe what I am saying. Given this information, let’s assume we took the lowest numbers and a rate of 48% rapists that are let go end up repeating little kids, what would you do? What do you think is the best solution for the kids as well as the community/world altogether? Imagine (god forbid) if it was your son/daughter nephew or niece. I already had my answer prior to becoming Muslim, my personal opinion was rapists and pedophiles should be put death after the first strike. Rape, unlike almost all other crimes have long lasting effects such as trust issues, PTSD and a few others. So when you rape someone it goes far beyond the actual time it took for the guy to please himself (I said guy since by a huge margin most rape cases are by men) when we are talking about recovery time from the physical and mental damage done. So, with all that said what does Islam say about rape? Short answer, capital punishment. What does Islam say about the rape victims? The same thing any rational, loving and caring human being does, it says they should be cared for in every possible in order to help them get their life in order. Yes, I know some so called “Muslim countries” often blame the victim/woman, well, guess what? That also happens in the west and in Europe. Anyway, back to the “Muslim countries”, this is unfair treatment of the victim is a 100% product of that country’s culture and 0 to do with Islam. If you don’t believe me look it up yourself, look up what Islam says and how much of what is said is truly implemented. Asia, Africa and the Middle East are predominantly Muslim, and those cultures are mainly male dominated and everything they say and do is male motivated even though, this all goes against the true teachings of Islam. Here’s an example, Saudi Arabia just allowed women to drive a few weeks ago, for everyone saying that, that is Islam I always ask them. Why that is over 1,400 years ago the Prophet’s wife was allowed to go out in public on her camel (equivalent to today’s car) and conduct business? Do the Saudis know Islam better than the Prophet? Today there are “Muslim countries” (due to their population and belief) but, there is NOT 1 single Islamic state and there is a huge difference between the 2. Sorry for the very long answer. So what do you think about Islam’s capital punishment rule to rapists? Fair? Justified? Too harsh?
“Religion either doesn't address these issues at all, or is otherwise incapable of instilling moral behavior on it's subjects” In your next sentence you mentioned Christians but, lets focus in Muslims for a moment here. By your own admission you said you are not educated when it comes to Islam so, I ask you, respectfully, on what grounds do you ask this kind of question on an issue you have almost no knowledge of? I recommend reading what Islam says about what and how Islam talks about “instilling moral behavior on it's subjects”. By the way, just to be clear, unlike the Christians, I am not here to try and “save” nor am I trying to convert you to Islam. Merely I am trying to get you to look at it without any bias and come to your own conclusion.
“And not just the extremist Muslims, there is plenty of Christian convicts, that have committed their crimes despite knowing them to be against their religious beliefs. Also, I'm not blaming the religion, or at the very least it's not my intention behind my words here. I'm just pointing out it's inability to teach people morals” I am glad you aren’t blaming religion as it will help shorten my answer. Let’s turn the tables for second, do Atheist do things such as commit crimes knowing they are against the law? The reason I use the law as an example because regardless of being a theist or an atheist, the law is one thing we all must abide by, whether willingly or not. Point it people do stupid things that either go against the law or against their own beliefs, nothing anyone can do about it, and it won’t change. Although, because a Muslim does something stupid, does not mean Islam told him or her to do so. It’s important to be able to separate the 2. While I do think the media has a an enormous role in how Muslims and Islam is portrayed around the world, Muslims have not helped themselves either. I can go on hours and hours on this topic but, I am sure you get the point.
“Religion must, thus, be fundamentally flawed. Otherwise a perfect word of a God, should you wish to believe one, would be unerring, perfect an have instilled the perfect moral behavior on it's subjects” Again, with all due respect, I don’t think you are qualified to make that statement until, you have at least studied and analyzed the word of god in detail then come to a conclusion.
“^ this is how modern religions operate. If you have 'fixed' your texts, following the described ways, it just proves my point. It just means theists themselves have admitted to the 'imperfections' of God.” The link you posted only talks about and cites Judaism and Christianity, other than the word Islam in the 1st paragraph, that article has nothing to do with Islam. When it comes to fixing your texts, the Quran has not been changed once since day 1, an established fact by all religious historians and scholars alike. Feel free to look it up.
“And if you claim to follow some literal interpretation, that is even worse. Most extremists seem to do so too.” The Quran has various levels of interpretation, some verses are meant literally while others are mean metaphorically. Somethings in the Quran are best explained through metaphors so we can get a clear understanding of what is meant. I know some people on this forum hate it when theists say metaphorically but, that’s the way it is.
TROLL: I don't even believe he is a Muslim any more.
Searching for truth “please educate this ignorant individual on how Muslims treat rapists/their victims.”
We already know, you worship them as a prophet. It takes a special kind of idiocy to make such a claim whilst worshipping and venerating a paedophile, who raped a 9 year old child.
@saporo
With all due respect, you are a perfect example of why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. At least when it comes to islam
@Searching for truth
Do you deny that Islam promotes the torture of those who do not submit to Allah? Can you confirm whether or not you approve of the torture of those who do not submit to Allah? The qur'an says that Muslims will laugh at the prospect of people being tortured for not submitting to Allah.
Searching for truth "With all due respect, you are a perfect example of why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. At least when it comes to islam"
And yet again when your bullshit is exposed you resort to ad hominem. If the adage a little knowledge is a dangerous thing is really true, then you should be safe as houses champ, and that includes the Islamic superstition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4OCTslNeT8
This is the scariest video on YouTube.
AND THIS IS THE SECOND MOST SCARY VIDEO ON YOUTUBE: Absolute proof Ghosts Are Real.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz1W_omigwg
@Truth Seeker
I should start with pointing out your last two paragraphs are in clear contradiction. First, it implies you didn't even bother to read what's in the link. Else you should understand why metaphors ARE a fix, and why atheists not so much hate them, they disregard them as a valid argument altogether. Holding on to metaphorical interpretations IS the flaw of the holy texts I'm pointing out. It is what enables the extremists to indoctrinate children for war needs in the first place. If you require to take even a part of 'truth' metaphorically, there is no guide within the proposed 'truth' to discern itself. It only begs to ask - who get's to decide on which parts to understand metaphorically? The individual reading it.
Good that you pointed out the part that both theists and atheists need to adhere to the law. Thing is - it makes religion redundant.
Also let me clarify this, before I continue. I hate Mass Media and it's lies. Neither am I american or related.
I live in a generally peaceful country called Latvia, where crime rates are ridiculously low. Rape, for one, is less than 70 per year on average over the last 10 years. Have been steadily decreasing and continues to do so. For slightly more than 2x10^6 inhabitants, it's not a bad number at all. I'll let you calculate the probability my words about my elder sis getting raped being true. As for punishment - it's definitely not death. For one, I wished for a more severe punishment, can't deny that. But I also didn't want to commit an atrocity in response of atrocity. Much less so given all the uncertainty surrounding the whole ordeal, it could have possibly hurt an innocent person. This is why you don't drink among strangers, people, as I never have since.
As for Islam specific issues... there are none which haven't been addressed in either of the other two Abrahamic religions. And, after meticulously taking apart two supposedly holy texts, what do you think people learn? They learn to discern bullshit in any other text they pick up. Which is why my attempts at reading Quran stopped very abruptly after just a few pages. It's the same. It might tell different stories, it might try and convene a different message, but ultimately - it's the same. And not just in it's unverifiable, condescending, indoctrinating and 'supernatural' nature, but also in it's application as a weapon of mass destruction.
Which leads me to my final point. I'm not blaming each and every muslim for something a single terrorist has done. I am, however, blaming them for not realizing the original cause, which enabled such behavior. I understand that some muslims must be like this, just without the bloody past, but most aren't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwpiI18TBdE
He clearly points out how Quran gets used as a weapon. Shame he didn't come to realize the main underlying problem. Don't give people a weapon that can only be used against them, and never in their own favor.
@Mushkis
"I should start with pointing out your last two paragraphs are in clear contradiction. First, it implies you didn't even bother to read what's in the link." Actually, my reply said what the link was about proving that i read it, i said it had nothing to do with Islam, not that i did not read it.
"Else you should understand why metaphors ARE a fix, and why atheists not so much hate them, they disregard them as a valid argument altogether" metaphors in the Quran are not a fix. Atheists choosing to disregards them as valid does not mean i, or the rest of the world has to.
"It is what enables the extremists to indoctrinate children for war needs in the first place." Just like everyone else here you are choosing to focus on the negative and extreme cases, while what you said is true there is also another side of it. If Islam was so bad and wants to kill everyone then why aren't the rest of the Muslims around the world out killing everyone around the globe?
"Good that you pointed out the part that both theists and atheists need to adhere to the law. Thing is - it makes religion redundant." If religious law was implemented then you could also saw it would make law redundant. Again, you are always looking at things from 1 point of view.
"I live in a generally peaceful country called Latvia, where crime rates are ridiculously low." Consider yourself lucky as the rest of the world is not like that
"As for punishment - it's definitely not death. For one, I wished for a more severe punishment, can't deny that. But I also didn't want to commit an atrocity in response of atrocity." You are talking but not really saying anything. Not offering a solution is not a solution. Also, this is not only my or an islamic point of view, search on YouTube and you will find many people that will say the same thing. So what will you do after your "more severe punishment" is up and the rapist rapes for a 2nd or 3rd time?
"As for Islam specific issues... there are none which haven't been addressed in either of the other two Abrahamic religions." then a few sentences later you said "Which is why my attempts at reading Quran stopped very abruptly after just a few pages. It's the same". So how can you say its the same only after a few pages? you are clearly contradicting yourself here and only further weakening your stance when it comes to talking about Islam
"It might tell different stories, it might try and convene a different message, but ultimately - it's the same." Read and find out for yourself instead of just assuming
"He clearly points out how Quran gets used as a weapon. Shame he didn't come to realize the main underlying problem. Don't give people a weapon that can only be used against them, and never in their own favor." Sorry, i did not watch the video yet, I am traveling for work but will later. Yes, many use the Quran as weapon but,that is not it's only use. It's used like that by extremists that are filled with nothing but hate. Again you say things as if you have knowledge of what you are talking about when you say "Don't give people a weapon that can only be used against them" By your own admission you don't know the Quran and Islamic tradition yet, you keep making these statements like you are some kind of expert.
By the way, can you name a "weapon" that can ONLY be used for good and not bad? Serious question as nothing comes to my mind at this moment. Even love can be used to twist and manipulate people.
Most criminals are not murderers. So what exactly is your point?
I cannot think of anything worse than torture (I'd prefer death to being tortured for eternity, for example), so I find it nonsensical when you believe that Islam promotes torture and yet as a Muslim, you do not consider yourself part of the group you label extremist.
You can keep claiming i said things i did not say, that's the main reason i have been ignoring your posts. I never said Islam promotes torture nor did i say i agree with torture. With that said, as long as you are making things up i will continue to ignore you. How about you cite an authentic incident (with full context) during the time of Prophet Muhammad where he tortured anyone or ordered the torturing of anyone? Do that then we can talk. Something tells me you will reply with some blah blah blah i wont waste my time type of response.
Islamic doctrine says that those who do not submit to Allah will be tortured. I do not believe you have revealed whether you think repeatedly burning people's skin off is torture.
Muslim historians in the hadith collections do record Muhammad as taking part in torture, although it is certainly true that Muslims choose to ignore hadiths they find inconvenient. I wasn't aware that this applied to the qur'an also however.
qur'an 5:33 is a notable instance of Islamic doctrine promoting torture of those who "wage war against Allah", namely through the use of crucifixion.
"cite an authentic incident (with full context) during the time of Prophet Muhammad where he tortured anyone or ordered the torturing of anyone? "
If Islam is a religion of peace, why did Muhammad torture and kill Kinana, a rich Jewish man from Khaybar for his wealth?
1) This is what Ibn Ishaq has to say about the event:
"Kenana was a Jewish Arab tribal leader and an opponent of Muhammad. “Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud”
2) Al-Talabari writes:
“The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him”
Kenana was an enemy of the Prophet’s, and had killed Muhammad Bin Maslama’s brother (Muhammad Bin Maslama was a close friend of the Prophet). Not only that, but he broke an agreement with the Prophet too.. the Prophet said that if he told them where the treasure was, he could have been spared. He decided not to, therefore Kenana was **tortured and then Muhammad Bin Maslama executed him.
This was in direct accordance with Islamic law. Kenana broke an agreement, and had killed someone. The Prophet showed mercy and asked for his treasure, as a form of blood money and to make up for the fact that he broke the agreement. Kenana refused to give any of his wealth, and denied he had any. The Prophet and his companions then found some of his denied wealth, and offered one final warning demanding he gives up the rest or else. Kenana still refused, so he was **tortured and then Muhammad Bin Maslama executed him.
The Prophet implemented the Islamic system of Qisas (retaliation) and Diyah (blood money). Kenana could have paid the blood money and he would have been spared, but he refused. So he was killed in retaliation for killing Muhammad Bin Maslama’s brother.
QED ...no doubt (avoids) searching for truth will either ignore this, or simply dismiss it, as he is a proven liar, nonetheless here is evidence that Muhammad had someone tortured, and from multiple sources.
Then there was the 9 year old child that Muhammad raped of course, that sounds like torture to me, and should to any decent person.
@Sheldon,
Ahhh, come one Shelly boy. Is this seriously the best you can you? While normally I would simply ignore this since there is still nothing of substance being present here. It was too hard to pass up point out your laziness, arrogance, ignorance and pure hate. Well, since you chose to literally just copy paste your entire “case” from the link I will provide below, I will afford you the same respect and provide my answer in a link below. Good luck and please, stop bringing old made up bs. It only further weakens your Islamic hate game. By the way, had you not been so lazy and blinded by your hate and rushing to find the first google search result, you would have had time to read the comments of all the people that call out this fabricated lie for what it is, a fabricated lie. I will pray for you, brother.
Link to Shelly Boy’s “case”
https://www.quora.com/If-Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace-why-did-Muhammad-t...
The Muslim’s reply
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/rebuttal_to_silas_on...
“nonetheless here is evidence that Muhammad had someone tortured, and from multiple sources.” LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL good one, bro. got any more quora sources? LOLOLOLOLOL
“Then there was the 9 year old child that Muhammad raped of course, that sounds like torture to me, and should to any decent person.” Ah, this one again. Search online, you will find this has been addressed 100s of times already. The non-hateful answer might not be the first 2 google search results which would explain why you have yet to find an answer. Or maybe you have and it did not satisfy you so you decide to come here to continue spreading hate and ignorance. I will give you a hint Yasir Qadhi
I don't see any answer in that disjointed rant, not that I'm surprised. Obviously you think raping nine year old children is ok then? You won't be the first Muslim to come on here with grandiloquent claims about their morality, then reveal the true depraved nature of their beliefs. I will not validate you puerile personal attacks, and stick to the facts.
I note you're seconds away from using the word Islamophobia, a sure sign you have neither arguments nor evidence left to support your beliefs and claims.
I'll make it easy for you:
1) Is it ever morally acceptable to torture someone?
2) Is it ever morally acceptable to rape a nine year old child?
@Sheldon
"I don't see any answer in that disjointed rant, not that I'm surprised. Obviously you think raping nine year old children is ok then? You won't be the first Muslim to come on here with grandiloquent claims about their morality, then reveal the true depraved nature of their beliefs. I will not validate you puerile personal attacks, and stick to the facts.
I note you're seconds away from using the word Islamophobia, a sure sign you have neither arguments nor evidence left to support your beliefs and claims.
I'll make it easy for you:
1) Is it ever morally acceptable to torture someone?
2) Is it ever morally acceptable to rape a nine year old child?"
Shelly boy, honestly, it takes a lot for me to completely and utterly lose respect for an individual. Congrats on being the first atheist from this forum to make that distinguished list. Seeing how utterly blind you are to everything and simply guided and driven by hate. I will just let you know that i won't reply to a single reply you make in any thread. Figured i'd let you know so you don't waste your time. I give answers and you choose to ignore and too lazy to do anything other than copy and paste the first link you find to try and justify your weak and pathetic Islamic hate game. Seems googling what Yasir Qadhi said about the whole marriage is too much work for your tiny brain. I will honestly, sincerely and genuinely pray for you. Good luck with life, i imagine you are having a hard enough time dealing with anyone that does not 100% conform to your limited way of thinking.
Reserving the ability to switch between literal and metaphor allows the reader to make any text mean anything they want. Which makes the text useless for most purposes, imo.
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