Are there pro-life atheists here?

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LogicFTW's picture
@JoC

@JoC

2.) A fact eh? A fact that at the point of conception (this can actually take as long as 4 days if we include identical twin formation,) the cell(s) is a person? Do you have powerful evidence to make that a fact? Or are you stating an opinion and lying and stating it is fact? I think it is the latter, because I have never seen any powerful evidence that makes a human being at the point of conception. It is only opinion. What is worse, is you are stating your opinion as fact and then try to force your opinion on others. You lie to help force your opinion on others, others not like you, female instead of male. You are sexist, a liar, and force innocent vulnerable pregnant woman into bondage with their own bodies because of your opinion when they could have a choice.

This is the core of your problem, you see your unevidenced opinion as fact. This is highly dangerous. For you and for everyone else you try to force your opinion on to. Fortunately I think this sort of self delusion is limited mostly to topics of relation to "god." Or you would already (hopefully) be in prison with no chance for parole.

What if I need a kidney? You have 2 healthy ones, you don't need both, I need one. It is my opinion I have a right to live more then you have the right to your kidney. Can I hunt you down, drug you and steal one of your kidneys? Maybe it's not a donor match, but I can trade with another available kidney? You okay with this? Are you forced to let me keep my kidney and not sue me for any damages to you? Like a woman that has been raped cannot decide to abort the fetus? We are talking about using your body to make sure I live.

3) Never said abortion erases rape, nothing erases rape. It is your OPINION that a blastocyst that can barely even be seen with the unaided eye is a full "human being." That has all the rights of a human being that supersedes a woman's right to her own body. So it is only YOUR OPINION that abortion is allowing a woman to be complicit in the murder of her child. Like I said above, if people can run over the rights of a person's own body by simply stating their opinion as fact, what is there to stop me from hunting you down and stealing your kidney for my use? What if there is a complication during surgery and you are left crippled for life, for ever hooked up to a machine for the remainder of your short life? (Pregnancy complications can occur and can even result in the death of the mother.)

4) True, truly pro life women would stop taking plan B, as it is absolutely within their right, and they would also probably stop taking the daily "pill" many women use or an IUD as all of them have abortifacient effects in them as back ups. As was discussed earlier in the thread, the condom or the female variant are at around ~85 percent effectiveness rate or less. If a woman is sexually active, having an unwanted baby gets to the point of being increasingly likely. So now if a woman wants to be sure she only has kids when she wants and not have any unplanned pregnancies she needs to practice abstinence or do surgery to get the odds of not having an unwanted pregnancy while sexually active to acceptable levels.

Also, 100% of all fertilized eggs will die. This doesn't give us the right to kill anyone we want.

Nice try, but does not work that way. The fact that we humans will all die someday has nothing to do with the fact 30-60 percent of all fertilized eggs do not make it ot healthy birth. Your counter argument is worthless as it does not address the argument. They may sound like similar arguments but they are not. If you can't see this I worry for your ability to to come to decent, rational, healthy and constructive conclusions on anything.

Dying of natural causes before birth do not equal the fact that everyone dies eventually natural or not, no one is saying anyone can kill anyone they want.

 
 

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Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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LogicFTW's picture
@JoC

@JoC
I already know it is highly unlikely I can penetrate through the "my god and religion" is always correct, even if it makes no logical sense and has zero real evidence backing it.

So a different angle for you:

According to various pro life websites at least 50 million abortions have occurred worldwide every year for the last 20 years or so. That alone is 1 billion. Throw in aborticides like IUD, the pill, the morning after pill etc, that number balloons to likely several billion more. Since you think all these are people after the moment of conception, that is billions of completely innocent young babies being killed. If your opinion was somehow proven to be fact (it can't be proven, but let's say it was.)

Talk about epic failure, billions of completely innocent young babies murdered. More people then you could count in a lifetime. All brutally murdered with no chance at self defense. At probably at least 100 million a year, with only 31,557,600 seconds a year. That means a bit more than 3 innocent little babies are murdered every second by their willing mothers.

While you read the above at least several dozen innocent little babies were murdered by their mothers. And you obviously don't even really care. How do I know this? Well What have you done about it? You sat here and read this while several dozen innocent babies were murdered by their mothers. How many of those mothers have even been arrested for murdering their baby? Maybe 1 in 1000? Perhaps more like 1 in 100,000? Everything the "pro life" people have done has barely put a dent in the numbers of abortions. If anything the numbers of abortions continue to go up, substantially, and the murders continue to walk free completely unaccountable to the fact they murdered a baby. If I guessed at and counted up all the seconds you posted and likely read on these boards, even if I was very conservative in my estimates, many 1000's of babies were brutally murdered while you sat here debating on these boards. What you don't care about them enough to do anything about all these horrific murders?

Even in the most powerful country in the world, and the most culturally signficant country in the world at least 6 decades, Roe v Wade is still the national law of the land. Even with the GoP party now having a majority of picked SCOTUS justices and GoP going on and on about being the party that is pro-life, Roe V Wade still stands. It is not going anywhere eithir. The think tanks of the GOP party have quickly figured out that the abortion issue is their golden goose that lays a steady stream of golden eggs for free votes, as long as Roe V Wade still stands they can get free votes by simply paying lip service to overturning roe vs wade. If they actually ever overturned Roe V Wade they kill the golden goose of free single issue voters.

Worse still new technologies and access to that technology is coming out. Already a more recent development you can have an abortion in the privacy of your own home for free (if you lack the financial means) if you do it within 3 days of "conception." This technology is only improving and access to it is only improving. It is likely that it is only a matter of time when anyone can take a pill that cost a few bucks and abort a baby with total privacy at a time of their choosing. The mother could easily not tell anyone they are not pregnant (until the belly bulge and other symptoms becomes obvious to others) and and it would be impossible to detect the abortions occurring, nearly impossible to stop.

And there is nothing all the super opinionated "pro-life" people can do about it. The pro life people have been losing this battle badly for decades and it is only going to get worse for them.

The good news for you is: it doesn't affect you. You are not going to get "murdered" by your mother while you are in your mother's womb. It actually does not affect you at all. At least, until you get a woman pregnant, and then suddenly you want your opinion on whether you can force a woman to carry that baby to term even if she does not want to. Which based on the fact you barely care about 100 million babies getting murdered every year, means all you really care about is the ability for you to control a woman's body when it comes to YOUR offspring.

At least be honest, you want control over a woman's body, forcing them to be human incubators to your offspring if they disagree with you. You consider woman lesser than you, at least in this regard because you can force your opinion on them and their body.

And I know you are likely incapable of seeing this, but it is: YOUR OPINION of when human life begins, NOT FACT.

Just like how my opinion that a blastocyst, a fetus etc is only potential for human life and not full human life is MY OPINION I do not have facts to back it up. The only FACTS we have are: Up until 20-23 weeks a "baby" is wholly dependent upon the mother's body to survive, but after that, an advanced and expensive NICU could have the baby survive outside the mother with a reasonable shot to live and lead a normal healthy life.
 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Sheldon's picture
"The FACT is at the point of

"The FACT is at the point of conception, what we have is a new organism, that is human, "

No, this is not a fact at all. You are offering a subjective and fairly disingenuous opinion, what;s more you seem determined to ignore the FACT that the pregnant woman is a fully formed human. If a man had a child, and the mother dies and the child needed a kidney, and the father was a suitable donor but refuse, would you pass a law insisting his body be used to save that child against his will?

I'm guessing not, and this is a fully formed human that can experience physical and emotional pain and suffering.

"I'd agree with you that rape is horrible. It's no joke. But will an abortion erase the rape?"

Oh ffs Joc, are you seriously saying you would force a rape victim to carry an unwanted pregnancy that resulted from the rape to full term, just to preserve an insentient clump of cells? That's one of the most barbarically stupid, and sadistic things I've ever heard.

"- Also, 100% of all fertilized eggs will die. This doesn't give us the right to kill anyone we want."

Can you really believe that kind of asinine hyperbolic rhetoric is justified? No one has even remotely suggested anyone can kill anyone they want, what a particularly stupid analogy Joc.

JoC's picture
Here's a compilation of

Here's a compilation of quotes from medical dictionaries and journals and textbooks.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

What I'm saying is that we don't solve one act of violence (rape) with another (murder/abortion).

"Can you really believe that kind of asinine hyperbolic rhetoric is justified? No one has even remotely suggested anyone can kill anyone they want, what a particularly stupid analogy Joc."

- Of course it's crazy! That's the point. But following the logic of the previous comment, it naturally follows. The argument went:
- a large number of fertilized eggs will die anyway, therefore it should be okay to end its life.

arakish's picture
Sorry CyberLN, but this is

Sorry CyberLN, but this is something I just have to say...

I for one can sympathize (is that the correct word?) with a rape victim. My wife endured the horrid attack of an attempted rape by a 15 year old child. I was at work when I received the call that she had been attacked. I said nothing and just took off to get home. It was not until I got home that I found out the details. I am not going to go into those details because this is something that is very difficult for me.

One thing I shall say. If my wife had not been strong enough to fight off this despicable excuse for a human and had been impregnated, I know one thing for sure. I would not have hesitated in aborting the monstrosity that would have been created as a result of rape.

JoC, your ultimate ideas for "pro-life" are despicable. Since that is true, what does that make you? And please do not offer any condolences. Any would be shameful and contemptible coming from you.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
Rubbish, that wasn't the

Rubbish, that wasn't the point, and it still doesn't justify your absurd and odious claim that people who aren't prepared to share your absolute black or white oversimplification of the complexities of abortion and morality are prepared to "kill anyone they want".

"What I'm saying is that we don't solve one act of violence (rape) with another (murder/abortion)."

You can repeat this asinine misrepresentation all you want JoC, it's as absurdly irrelevant as it is offensive.

"Here's a compilation of quotes from medical dictionaries and journals and textbooks."

What's your point? Here is a quote from the UK Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG).

"Fetuses aged 24 weeks or less do not have the brain connections to feel pain"

" pain responses may begin to develop only after a baby is born, and no longer sedated in the womb, and that this may explain why neonates experience pain differently to fetuses. “It is only after birth, with the separation of the baby from the uterus and the umbilical cord, that wakefulness truly begins,” it concludes."

The fetus remains insentient in the womb, and the development of consciousness only starts after childbirth.

These of course are not reasons to terminate a pregnancy, but they are important facts if we are to make informed and moral decision about if and when terminations are to be allowed.

arakish's picture
JoC: " "2. Overpopulation

JoC: " "2. Overpopulation concerns" There are other ways to address overpopulation. One way is abortion. Another is killing all people above a certain age. Another is killing all people of a certain skin color. Why is one preferred while the other ways are considered unethical?"

Well your religion of Christianity has always had the perfect answer, "Kill them all. Let God sort it out." If religion had never been the problem it has always been, the world's population would probably be about 20 billion people. If religion had never been the problem it has always been, our scientific advancements would be about 400 to 500 years advanced over what we have today.

For being a self-claimed engineer, you are not showing the brightest light are you?

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
All in all an excellent post.

All in all an excellent post. Nothing to disagree with there.

shiningone's picture
@ AccretedMinutiae

@ AccretedMinutiae

Overpopulation is a myth. I'll make another post on that one later.

"A fetus, though involuntarily, acts without regard to the health of the mother."
I can not fucking believe you just typed that! One of the most asinine statements I have read here so far, including the theist nuts.
I would carry on, but if you are capable of saying something like that it is obvious talking to you would be a waste of my time.

LogicFTW's picture
Overpopulation is a myth?

Overpopulation is a myth? Interested in seeing you trying to rationalize that one. I assume you are talking only about humans, but still, overpopulation is strictly a myth? Do share your argument on that.

While the statement: "A fetus, though involuntarily, acts without regard to the health of the mother."

Is particularly brutal and is an argument I personally would not use, but: can you disprove it? Ever heard of ectopic pregnancy? Or do you just dismiss such statements out of hand because it does not suit you?

 
 

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Diotrephes's picture
Is this the wave of the

Is this the wave of the future?

"Last week the New York State Senate passed the Reproductive Health Act (RHA) by a vote of 38-24, on the 46th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade, which found that a woman has a constitutional right to abortion. The bill already passed the state assembly by a 92-47 vote. It makes abortion on demand available to women up to the point of birth."

New York State Senate Passes Bill Permitting Abortions up to Birth
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/new-york-state-senate-passes-expan...

Nyarlathotep's picture
Not really an accurate

Not really an accurate summary.

shiningone's picture
"The legislation provides a

"The legislation provides a further exception to permit abortion at any point during pregnancy if a health-care practitioner deems it necessary for the mother’s life or health"

Which is basically a get out of jail free card. This health issue is basically open to all sorts of interpretation. As you know there are good health-care practitioners and bad ones, and stupid ones.

This sick law is now spreading to other states.

Also, check this out....Seems like Roe lied. Could be true or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43jxIV2JQQc

Nyarlathotep's picture
shiningone - Seems like Roe

shiningone - Seems like Roe lied. Could be true or not.

She did lie. At the time, you could only get an abortion in case of rape, so she lied and claimed she was raped to try to get an abortion. That didn't work. Eventually she got in touch with the famous lawyers in the case and fought for the right to get an abortion (with or without rape) in court.

Years later, after she switched to a pro-life stance, she lied about her earlier lie (by saying her lawyers told her to do it), despite the fact that this statement contradicts the facts of the case.

LogicFTW's picture
@shiningone

@shiningone

If you actually knew how hospitals/doctors etc work in New york or anywhere in this country, you would realize this is not a get out of jail free card.

Educate yourself on the law.
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/02/addressing-new-yorks-new-abortion-law/

In short, if that is too much reading for you, all they did was match New York law to the national law, (Roe V Wade) all they added was: the absence of fetal viability can be terminated as well, beyond the already on the books law of an abortion being necessary to “preserve” the mother’s life.

 
 

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Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Nyarlathotep's picture
Right it was a minor change.

Right it was a minor change. But it did surprise me: I was under the (false) impression that you could get an abortion at any time for an unviable fetus. Seems like common sense to me.

shiningone's picture
lol All you people with

lol All you people with sticks up your butts make me laugh. "Educate yourself on the law" FOR FUCK SAKE!
What the fuck is wrong with you people? You think this planet is inhabited by fucking saints" who do nothing but follow the law to the minutest detail!
" THE LAW SAYS SO, SO IT HAS TO BE TRUE!" Give me a fucking break.

CyberLN's picture
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LogicFTW's picture
Well as we found out in

Well as we found out in another reply on this thread, this guy thinks some women like getting raped. And he thinks we all don't know shit, but apparently he does.

Took a little bit for him to reveal himself for exactly the kind of person he is, but is out in the open now, his quick escalation at this point does not surprise me.

The scariest part? I do not even think this guy is trolling, this is genuinely what he believes.

CyberLN's picture
Agreed, Logic. Based one

Agreed, Logic. Based one what he has to say on the subject, I’d bet dollars to donuts he’s never been raped.

CyberLN's picture
shiningone, you wrote, “Which

shiningone, you wrote, “Which is basically a get out of jail free card. ”

I think that says a lot about your anti-choice stance. It’s not even very subtle. “You went and got yourself pregnant. Now your punishment (jail) is to have to have stay that way,”

shiningone's picture
"I think that says a lot

"I think that says a lot about your anti-choice stance."
It is SUPPOSED to. Yes, they have to live with the consequences of their actions. They are in control of ANOTHER LIFE.
If you decide to drink and drive, you don't get to ignore the consequences once you get caught.

CyberLN's picture
You may have missed my point.

You may have missed my point. I’ll iterate it: it appears that you think a woman should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy as punishment for becoming that way in the first place.

SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
Religious people love to

Religious people love to preach about having free will and then have the nerve to scrutinize others for being Pro-CHOICE.

Are pro-lifers really Pro-Life or Pro-Livelihood? When a preganacy goes wrong or a child is born into chaotic life of suffering I don't hear or see any concern from the so called "Pro-Life" people who pretend to care so much. "Pro-Life" ? More like Pompous judgemental jackass.

You can obviously tell which side of the spectrum I'm on, but if I had to label myself I'd say I'm Pro-Mind-Your-Own-Damn-Business.

Diotrephes's picture
Suppose people were made the

Suppose people were made the old fashioned way. Would abortion even be an issue? Would we even know what it is?

JoC's picture
I think abortion was always

I think abortion was always an issue even in the "old fashioned" times.

Diotrephes's picture
JoC,

JoC,

"I think abortion was always an issue even in the "old fashioned" times.

According to the biblical fairy tale man was made from dirt and woman was made from one of the man's ribs. Suppose that was still true today. Would abortion be an issue? Would we even know what it is?

JoC's picture
I don't get the question.

I don't get the question. Also, I haven't made any religious arguments on this thread as I understand that religious arguments won't have any weight on these forums. So I prefer to leave them aside.

HAL 9000's picture
Why would anybody be in a

Why would anybody be in a relationship with a woman who is "pro-choice"?

She can legally destroy something you had equal part in creating without your permission.

She can intentionally take something which you helped create away from you without you being able to do anythng about it even if you haven't harmed her in any way.

Is that really how choice works?

If you're in a relationship with somebody who is against "pro-choice" that problem doesn't exist so trust isn't threatened.

Trust is very important in a relationship

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