Armed Teachers? You decide.

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LogicFTW's picture
I am doing well thanks :)

I am doing well thanks :)

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I learned a couple of new things and cleared up some long standing questions I have had. Most folks knowledgeable on this subject tend to not be very forthcoming. I actually have a friend who is currently a police officer, but he tends to not be very interested in conversations like this. Done 2 ride alongs with him, learned a lot, some of the more interesting days I have had in my life so far.

My own work is more gig and freelance oriented, so sometimes I have lots of free time and other times the work is non stop and involves a fair amount of travel. So I apologize not responding earlier, all this stuff is interesting to me and the eternal gun debate is something I always want to learn more about.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic Re: "Most folks

@Logic Re: "Most folks knowledgeable on this subject tend to not be very forthcoming. I actually have a friend who is currently a police officer, but he tends to not be very interested in conversations like this."

Well, while I cannot speak for your friend, I am pretty sure I understand why he is reluctant to discuss such matters. Speaking for myself, even though I have been retired for almost six years now, it has actually been a little difficult for me having these discussions on here. To a certain degree, it can be mentally exhausting. And while there are a few various reasons for that, I believe the main one (for me, at least) is the sheer frustration experienced in the thoughts of, "How can people NOT see these things???" Honestly, it can be a bit disheartening after awhile when things that are so clear and obvious (to me and other officers) end up being totally unknown foreign concepts to others. Also, having to explain certain things we do/know as cops has a tendency at times to leave us feeling "vulnerable". And - as you may imagine - feeling/being vulnerable is a luxury we do not want, nor can we afford. I can tell you, whenever my family and friends ever use to ask me about specifics of why police do what they do, I would generally just give some sort of pat generic answer to appease them, because in my mind there was no way they could fully understand any true answer I might offer. So, as for your police buddy (along with most every other officer you might encounter), my guess is he is simply trying to keep his edge and stay sharp so that he can stay alive. It is survival instinct and defense mechanism. It is nothing personal toward you.

David Killens's picture
Wow, I am impressed with so

Wow, I am impressed with so many well thought-out comments. And of course, Tin-man gets a big shout out.

There are many obstacles on implementing a cohesive and effective "arm the teacher" program, and one more hurdle came to my mind.

What if parents demand that THEIR children attend classes with armed teachers. And if they are not allowed that courtesy, my guess is that the courts will be filled with lawsuits.

If I was a parent, and if I had a child in a school with an "armed teacher" program, I would definitely insist that my child is placed in a class with an armed teacher. Being informed that my child would be located in a "soft" classroom that is potentially vulnerable would be completely unacceptable.

Because with an armed teacher program, sadly the odds are incredibly high that the armed teachers would not be aware of or able to respond until at least sixty seconds after the mass murderer(s) had begun their business.

LogicFTW's picture
Very important hurdle to

Very important hurdle to consider. Also other parents could demand that their children not be in the classroom with an armed teacher. Heck, if I had a kid I would certainly prefer that kid to be in the classroom that did not have an armed teacher. As the way I would see it is: the armed teacher is more of a threat/danger to my kids health and wellbeing then the still: extremely rare mass shooting event scenario where having an armed teacher in the classroom would actually make a difference to the wellbeing of children specifically in that classroom.

David Killens's picture
Would any teachers who

Would any teachers who participated in this program accept being publicly exposed?

Kids are smart, and in some cases those who went on murderous rampages did a lot of planning and research. I expect that some would check out who was armed, where they were located, even their personal schedules. It is not a great leap to expect any mass murder to select soft targets first.

LogicFTW's picture
Also not unreasonable for a

Also not unreasonable for a kid armed with an ar-15 to hit the hard targets first. Tactically that makes the lots of sense as well, even in a "kill as many people possible mind set."

Especially with the element of surprise and overwhelming firepower, if a school only had 1-2 armed teachers, picking the known locations of armed teachers to start would virtually ensure victory. The teachers and kids in those classrooms could very well be the first to get shot at.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TW and David

@ TW and David

I think I am witnessing 'gun culture'

I don't quite know how to cope,

LogicFTW's picture
Heh, dunno if I would

Heh, dunno if I would consider myself part of gun culture. Guess I do talk about it a fair amount.

I am just pointing out what feels like to me many people with guns they buy for self defense do not seem to consider:

Being surprised makes a gun to a gun owner useless, (any weapon really.) And most scenarios where a teacher would suddenly need to defend a school the teacher will be taken completely by surprise.

I think most people actually trained in gun use and have jobs/service that require the use of guns would agree that they have to be in constant state of awareness and almost paranoia when they are doing their job. Cops will talk about developing almost a 6th sense, and having "eyes on the back of their heads." Soldiers talk of getting themselves in a sort of battle state when they walk onto a battlefield.

Where as a teacher, even with training that will likely never see a mass shooting can not do that, they have to focus on teaching their kids and being relaxed and dealing with those issues. They will be taken by surprise at first.

The most powerful weapon/defense of a soldier or police officer is not the gun, but their communications device, (like radio, satellite phone etc.) Intel to help prevent the surprise. Even armed and trained police officers get gunned down when taken by surprise.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic Re: "I think most

@Logic Re: "I think most people actually trained in gun use and have jobs/service that require the use of guns would agree that they have to be in constant state of awareness and almost paranoia when they are doing their job..... Where as a teacher, even with training that will likely never see a mass shooting can not do that, they have to focus on teaching their kids and being relaxed and dealing with those issues..."

YES! Yes-yes-yes! Precisely! Thank you very much for that, Logic! That is something very important I wanted to mention before, but it got sort of put aside in the shuffle of trying to make other points. And while I did touch on that matter to a small degree in one of my posts, you said EXACTLY the thing I wanted to say, but was struggling with a simple way to put it. You, good sir, did that for me quite nicely. Bonus points to you for hitting a bull's eye. Your observations in that matter are very accurate.

David Killens's picture
Me too Old Man. Although I

Me too Old Man. Although I grew up around weapons and know more about them than I wish I should, in my mind they are just tools used to kill. Tin-Man laid out a wonderful path in understanding the logistics and compound problems involved in making such a program work, but my personal vision is one of prevention at the source.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic and David Re: "What

@Logic and David Re: "What if parents demand that THEIR children attend classes with armed teachers...... Also other parents could demand that their children not be in the classroom with an armed teacher...... Would any teachers who participated in this program accept being publicly exposed?"

Real quick before I get out of here..... By golly! I LIKE how you guys think! Outstanding points!

Diotrephes's picture
If you're going to give

If you're going to give teachers guns for the express purpose of them killing kids who are shooting up the school it would be a good idea to train them with VR techniques where the shooter looks like one of their own kids who's doing the shooting. That will condition the teacher to shoot the shooter without mercy or a second thought because if the teacher hesitates then the shooter in the VR program will kill the teacher.

This is a great business opportunity for anyone who wants to develop such a program.

LogicFTW's picture
It is a great business

It is a great business opportunity to develop a VR game where you shoot students armed with a gun in schools? Heh ;)

Diotrephes's picture
LogicForTW,

LogicForTW,

"It is a great business opportunity to develop a VR game where you shoot students armed with a gun in schools? Heh ;)"

If you want to arm teachers then they should be trained to the point that they will blast their own child if he's shooting up the school. After all, the real shooter is someone's precious child. So in the VR training scenario chaos breaks out, with kids running in all directions and the sound of gun fire. The teacher searches the area in a panic as she sees Little Annie getting her head blown own. She sees the shooter and it's her child. If she doesn't blast him then she's washed out of the program. The intent is to train the teacher to become a cold-blooded killer or why arm them in the first place?

Of course we all know what the end results of such a program will be. But if you want teachers to pack they must be trained to become killers. If you had such a program and demonstrated it to the dummies do you think they would still want to arm the teachers?

LogicFTW's picture
Oh okay I think I see where

Oh okay I think I see where you are going with this.

"If you had such a program and demonstrated it to the dummies do you think they would still want to arm the teachers?"

Before that line I was thinking about all the public outcry of violent video games like Grand Theft Auto Series. And how that would be multiplied if there was a VR game where you hunt down and kill an armed student or 2 in schools. Most violent video games that depict shooting of people there are no children present, or the kids are "immortal" in the game. Because game developers realize the public backlash on such a game that featured that would be enormous.

It is a bit of a scary thought of kids playing highly sophisticated VR games that feature gun use that get closer and closer to mimicking reality. Of course perhaps it can be a good thing too? A way to blow off steam and play out violent fantasies w/o having to realize them in the real world? Who knows.

Tin-Man's picture
@Dio Re: "If you're going

@Dio Re: "If you're going to give teachers guns for the express purpose of them killing kids who are shooting up the school it would be a good idea to train them with VR techniques...."

Whether you realize it or not, you actually brought up a very sound and logical recommendation. And, as it turns out, we (the police world) already have similar training devices available. They are not exactly Virtual Reality (per say), but they are incredibly realistic nonetheless. They are called F.A.T.S. machines (FireArm Training Simulators). And they are a fantastic training tool. It is basically a large projection screen, with a computer controlled projector console that can be programmed with just about any conceivable scenario under just about any conceivable conditions. The firearms used are realistic in size, weight, and function, and are integrated with the computer system. During a given scenario, the computer can keep track of exactly where the weapon was aimed at any given time, and if shots are fired, the computer keeps track of where those shots hit. After the scenario, the operator can replay the scenario for the officer to see exactly how good or bad he/she performed in weapon control and shot placement. Oh, and the people and environment in the scenes were all REAL. No artificial looking CGI characters or graphics. It conditioned you to shoot at real people in a real-world setting.

With that in mind, it would be no large feat to program scenarios involving children suspects for teachers to use for training. Matter of fact, it would even be something I would strongly suggest. One small difference, however. Even if it were possible, using the actual son or daughter of a teacher in a scenario would likely be counter-productive, and (more importantly) it would not provide any true accurate assessment of the teacher's abilities. Quite honestly, come to think of it, any parent who WOULD immediately shoot/kill their own child without any hesitation in that situation is not exactly the type of person I would want guarding my own child anyway. Hmmm... Maybe this is a good time to tell of an incident I was involved in regarding a kid with a gun many years ago.... Maybe....

CyberLN's picture
My two cents: I carried a

My two cents: I carried a firearm for a living for many years. I still own firearms. My children are all grown. However, if they were still school age, I would pull them out of any school that had armed teachers. And I hope my children think the same way on behalf of my grandchildren.

xenoview's picture
Arming the teachers is not

Arming the teachers is not the answer. Limiting the number of entrances to the school, and putting metal detectors and armed guards in all schools. We need stricter gun control laws, background checks, and pysch evows on everyone buying a gun. Need to close all loopholes in gun laws.

Algebe's picture
Just to put this in

Just to put this in perspective, children are far more likely to be killed or hurt in traffic on the way to or from school than by a shooter in the school.

I say this as someone who grew up in a climate of parental fear about "stranger danger" triggered by the Moors Murders in the UK. Because of the sensational coverage given to serial killers and mass murderers, we tend to overlook the more mundane threats to our children. For example, we have massive traffic congestion and frequent accidents around schools because parents are afraid to let their kids walk. And sadly, for a lot of children, the most dangerous place is at home.

Tin-Man's picture
Hey, everybody.

Hey, everybody.

I would like to take a moment to let you all know how much I appreciate all the valuable input you have contributed to this thread. I confess I was very reluctant to start this discussion, as it is a subject matter that tends to expose a side of me that I normally prefer to keep to myself. Also, in writing some of the material, it forces me to recall incidents from the past, some of which are better left secured away within the locked closets of the mind. As may be expected, this can sometimes make writing a bit.... ummm... difficult. Nevertheless, having seen all the responses so far, I am very glad I made the choice to provide the information contained within my posts. And in case I have not already made it known, if anything I have posted can be of any positive benefit to anybody here, then please feel free to use whatever you need. And, again, thank you all for your support.

David Killens's picture
Tin-man, you fully comprehend

Tin-man, you fully comprehend the value and necessity of team work in such scenarios. Those who volunteer and are tasked with this great responsibility spend countless hours practicing together and rehearsing different scenarios. The end result is a TEAM that works in unison, and they must trust each other. Anything less would be a disaster.

My wife works in a school, and I am continually exposed to their attitudes and personalities. My personal conclusion is that it is near impossible to form an effective team of teachers for a simple task like cleaning up the schoolyard. Getting three or four teachers to fully trust each other and perform as a trained and effective team that can function under the highest pressure is a big ask.

Tin-man, although my exposure and experience does not come close to yours, I have also witnessed things that should not be in the public domain and are very disturbing. They do not give me nightmares, but I do regret witnessing such things.

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