ATHEIST WORLD VIEW

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Cognostic's picture
ATHEIST WORLD VIEW

"Atheist World View" is one of the most ignorant utterances that I continue to hear from the religious. Are people not aware that Atheists can believe in spirits, ghosts, and even magic? Are they unaware that atheists are republicans or democrats, conservative or liberals. Are they unaware that Atheists can be religious as the Buddhists. THERE IS NO ATHEIST WORLD VIEW. Atheism is a position on a single claim. "God exists." Atheists do not believe this claim. That's it. No world view. No claims about reality. I hear apologists like William Lane Craig intentionally use this term to create a Straw Man Argument or shift the burden of proof onto atheists (people who do not believe in god or gods) to make headway in their debates and then claim atheists believe there are no gods. This is simply a tactic for "shifting of the burden of proof." Please demonstrate to me that there is an Atheist World View.

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CyberLN's picture
Touché, Cog.

Touché, Cog.

Cognostic's picture
LOL - You caught that. I

LOL - You caught that. I guess I am not as slick as I think I am.

Flamenca's picture
If not a world view, I used

Instead of a common world view, I used to think that most atheists at least had some things in common: being skeptics (especially to all magical stuff), to value facts, certain fascination for Science, showing some respect for human rights...

This forum sometimes keeps proving me wrong. Apparently we are not that similar.

(Edited to fix mistakes)

Cognostic's picture
Actually Buddhists are

Actually Buddhists are atheists, not believing in gods (not all sects). There are people who just don't care as well. Atheists can also believe in magical thinking like "The Secret" "Crystal Magic" or "Spiritualism" What atheists have in common is non-belief in god or gods. And this is distinct from the Anti-theist position of "Believing that no Gods exist."

Flamenca's picture
"Atheists can also believe in

"Atheists can also believe in magical thinking like "The Secret" "Crystal Magic" or "Spiritualism" @Cog

No, no, no. I met tons of those people, even very close ones. Those can call themselves atheists, but they are in fact New Age believers: What's the difference between a "conscious" Universe and a deity? What's the difference between asking that Universe for your wishes to make them true and praying? Most of them also believe in reincarnation or some type of afterlife. Most of them buy pseudoscientific products or visit healers.

I refuse to be put in the same category as them.

Cognostic's picture
Yep!

Yep!

Terminal Dogma's picture
I think the term atheist

I think the term atheist world view is disguised to mean materialism or naturalism, not sure why they just can't say that in the first place. I think the term is to set up the retort that atheism is just another religion.

Easy to block this deliberate set up once you aware of it.

And yes atheists can and do diverge greatly on anything other than God belief.

arakish's picture
@Terminal Dogmatism

@Terminal Dogmatism

"I think the term atheist world view is disguised to mean materialism or naturalism..."

And how did you come to that bullshit conclusion? I am a minimalist. Most atheists and scientists I know are also minimalists. The only thing we truly tend to collect are books. Knowledge. Because this meme is so true of every atheist I have met:

Atheists read a many, many books and feel they still have things to learn.
Absolutists read only one book and feel they know everything.

As a minimalist, all I truly have is enough clothes to get me at least two weeks. A modest, almost nothing entertainment center, and about 3000 books. Oh, and can't forget my DVD collection. Mostly it is comprised of the entire series collection of about 25 to 30 television shows I love. Then there is about another three to four hundred of movies.

Otherwise, excepting a few pieces of furniture, cooking utensils, and a set of dishes and tableware, I have nothing. I prefer having a little as possible.

Thus, you are full of bullshit when it comes to making that remark: "I think the term atheist world view is disguised to mean materialism or naturalism..."

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
Good insight! I will agree

Good insight! I will agree with that as well.

Terminal Dogma's picture
I am disappointed by the

I am disappointed by the performance of most atheists that debate WLC, he usually wins.

I would beat him I'm sure as he always sets the same traps and his opponents lose as soon as they start to address his points.

There is a strategic reason he always goes first in a debate, its so his opponent always looks like theye scrambling in defence.

This appears to a general audience that WLC is in control.

arakish's picture
@Terminal Dogmatism

@Terminal Dogmatism

No he has not. From all his debates I have seen he is only batting about 0.500. He has had a new asshole ripped for him by Christopher Hitchens who made him look like the complete buffoon he is, completely eviscerating him. Sam Harris made him look like a childish spoiled brat, completely destroying the Christian belief. Can't remember the others I have seen. I got tired of listening to his diarrhea.

I am coming to the conclusion you are nothing more than an Absolutist Apologist Troll.

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
WLC is an excellent debtor

WLC is an excellent debtor and a pompous ass. His smugness is insulting. I really think people are afraid of him. They are afraid to treat him the way they would anyone else making the exact same fallacious assertions. I think he actually gets his opponents to believe that he is saying something special because of his bravado. But basically it is the same crap anyone can hear from an average apologist. Nothing new and nothing intelligent. All of it based on faulty logic and fallacies.

Sushisnake 's picture
@TD and Cog

@TD and Cog

I can't watch WLC debates- his voice puts my teeth on edge, for some reason. Really annoys me. Re: "His smugness is insulting. I really think people are afraid of him". Well, he's a professional debater, isn't he? His opponents aren't. He'd have the home team advantage every time, too, the US being such a religious place. The audience would be on his side, right from the word go. Has he done any debates outside of the US? And aren't there a few atheists he's flat out refused to debate?

Anyway, which of his debates would the two of you recommend are worth me putting up with the inevitable earache and listening to?

arakish's picture
@Sushi: "I can't watch WLC

@Sushi: "I can't watch WLC debates- his voice puts my teeth on edge..."

And I thought I was the only one.

And as Cog says below, the Hitchens vs Craig debate is a good one. It is one of the ultimate Hitch Slaps.

rmfr

Sushisnake 's picture
@Arakish

@Arakish

Re: "And I thought I was the only one."

He sounds like Bert from Sesame Street.

Cognostic's picture
I like the Pompous Craig

I like the Pompous Craig with the Equally Pompous Christopher Hitchens,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8

Sushisnake 's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Thanks Cog. I'll give it a listen. Hitch's voice should override the earache.

Edit: Well, I'm watching it Cog. Only on Craig's opening so far, but I'm already dizzy from the speed of his Gish gallops from general (stuff that applies to any creator god/ deity concepts and "evolutionists" and morality) to the particular (Jesus Christ, Jews and the resurrection, and I'm sure he'll veer back to the general again, soon. I can certainly see how and why he wins his debates.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Problem is the public confuse

Problem is the public confuse debating with research or something similar, debating is a sport you train for. Good debating teams will still win when they argue for a deliberate falsehood given to them as a challenge or some topic they personally oppose.

Sushisnake 's picture
@TermDog

@TermDog

Yep. And Craig debates for a living.

Travis Paskiewicz's picture
There are a good number of

There are a good number of atheists that draw a world view based on the evidence presented to them. Though I would conclude that most atheists generally don't believe in magic. Think of it like this: we don't believe in "exceptions" to the rules. Whenever something happens it's either replicable under the same circumstances or it is not. Magic, miracles, divine interventions... tend to not be replicable. If there were a say, a sequence of words and gestures that somehow caused a marked decrease to a person's physical health (i.e, a black magic curse) in exactly the same way 100% of the time, I would believe in such a thing. However, from the dabbling I've done in the occult to prove other's wrong, I can say I've never encountered such a thing, though I'm always open to try.

Travis Paskiewicz's picture
There are a good number of

There are a good number of atheists that draw a world view based on the evidence presented to them. Though I would conclude that most atheists generally don't believe in magic. Think of it like this: we don't believe in "exceptions" to the rules. Whenever something happens it's either replicable under the same circumstances or it is not. Magic, miracles, divine interventions... tend to not be replicable. If there were a say, a sequence of words and gestures that somehow caused a marked decrease to a person's physical health (i.e, a black magic curse) in exactly the same way 100% of the time, I would believe in such a thing. However, from the dabbling I've done in the occult to prove other's wrong, I can say I've never encountered such a thing, though I'm always open to try.

Cognostic's picture
Pay attention to what craig

Pay attention to what craig does. He immediately shifts the burden by challenging the "Atheist world view." "You can't prove atheism is right,." Everything the man says in his opening remarks is pure BS. He then goes cosmological, teleological, moral, bla bla bla nothing at all no one has not heard before. He makes me want to puke.

Sheldon's picture
I agree, Craig is a clown, he

I agree, Craig is a clown, he uses a scatter gun technique hurling claims that keep opponents off balance, so by the time any of his ridiculous claims are challenged his opponents appear on the defensive. Two things I find significant, firstly he has no integrity at all and zero interest in the truth, as he re-uses arguments and claims that have been thoroughly refuted as fallacious many times over. Secondly he touts himself as a professional philosopher, yet expects people to believe he isn't aware that he's basing arguments on common logical fallacies.

It's also worth noting that he is a public defender of genocide, so any argument for moral ascendancy is negated right there. He uses the usual claims for objective morality, and of course they are complete garbage as usual. I also find his smug condescending demeanour immensely irritating.

Cognostic's picture
WLC Opening Remarks ( Debate:

WLC Opening Remarks ( Debate: Does God Exist)

1. I am one of you. My kid played BB here. Vote for me! The common man.
2. Den of Sheep: Play on Biblical reference - I am a funny guy.
3. There is no good argument that atheism is true (Shifts the burden of proof and defines Atheism as a belief system no different that Christianity. (Sets up a straw man argument.)
4. Atheist have tried to disprove god. (Wrong. No reason to disprove a non-falsifiable claim.) Atheists have disproved Religious apologetic for centuries.
5. Rather than attack straw men (Denies the straw man he just set up and dishonestly accuses atheists of creating straw men arguments.)
6. I don;t have to prove anything. I will wait for Christopher to present arguments against god's existence. BULLSHIT
7. Cosmological argument. Does not get us to a god. Engages in name dropping over and over. Argument from authority. He puts words in the Atheists mouths. "The universe is eternal." Another straw man. He will next prove atheists wrong by citing evidence for a beginning from nothing and call it new science.
8. All the constants of the universe are designed for us / life. Because god made it that way. No because we came from the universe. We are a part of this universe. Had there been another universe created differently, something different would occur. "Adams' Puddle"

9. Craig states: "Infinity does not exist/ The universe had to have a beginning," FACTS ARE" University of Cambridge, as part of a conference series on the philosophy of cosmology, in order to discuss infinity. In summary there is as yet no consensus as to whether infinities exist in the physical world." https://plus.maths.org/content/do-infinities-exist-nature-0
WLC OPENLY LIES ABOUT FACTS. He finds authors that agree with his points of view and cites them without regard for what is actually being discovered.

I can't watch any more. The guy is an utter JERK.
10,

arakish's picture
I nominate Cognostic for

I nominate Cognostic for heroic actions above and way beyond the normal.

Damn dude, you lasted longer than I would have. Most often when I re-watch debates against WLC, I usually click ahead to skip his bullshit diarrhea.

Anyone else want to help congratulate Cog?

rmfr

Grinseed's picture
A very accurate assessment on

A very accurate assessment on Craig, Cog. I stopped watching/reading him years ago and it was more his pious smug sanctimonious voice that put me off more than his flaccid arguments which hardly vary from debate to debate. "Nothing new" as has been mentioned.

Cognostic's picture
It's not worth the time.

It's not worth the time. What is amazing is that there is an audience full of people listening to this diarrhea and actually believing WLC is saying something worthwhile. It makes me sick/

LogicForTW's picture
I likened the term someone

I likened the term someone else on these forums used.

Think of atheist to theist as like:

A non rare coin collector (atheist) to a coin collector (theist.) The non coin collector can call him/herself that to identify oneself in that way, but explains nothing else about that person. The non coin collector can be a boy, a girl, blind, not blind, etc etc etc

As for WLC, he is a good debater, if I was in a debate competition I would want him on my team. But not a good person and not good with actual facts. Outside of a debate environment WLC crumbles when forced to answer certain points about his supposed belief system. (I actually think WLC does not really believe half the shit he says, he just gets lots of money and fame doing what he does.) WLC is also good at publicity stunts.

arakish's picture
And how was it Richard

And how was it Richard Dawkins responded to this question (paraphrased): "Why won't you honor WLC's offer to a debate?"

RD (paraphrased): "I refuse to give WLC the opportunity to self-promote himself." (Or something like that.)

Here is an article RD wrote (or interviewed for, don't know which).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/20/richard-dawkins-wi...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFamS4RGE_A

https://www.richarddawkins.net/2011/10/why-i-refuse-to-debate-with-willi... (same as above but at RD's site)

I love his argument on WLC's only credentials is as a professional debater.

I also do not like WLC because he is such a strong supporter of complete genocide by using the Divine Command Theory. AFAIAC, this makes him just as evil, wicked, mean, and nasty as the God he debates for.

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
@ WLC does not really believe

@ WLC does not really believe half the shit he says
He flat out lies when it suits him. The fact that he says "Atheist World View" and knows damn well there is no Atheist world view is concrete evidence of this. Atheism is not a belief system and he knows it. He is a trained philosopher.. He damn well knows he is shifting the burden of proof when he asserts "You can't prove Atheism." He is a lying pedantic ASS who knows exactly what he is doing.

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