A benevolent, loving god?... Hmph!

192 posts / 0 new
Last post
Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism

What I see here are paragraphs of apologetics.

Aisha like any modern nine year old cannot be capable of a critical judgement that affects the rest of her life. The 'historical context' doesn't matter; she was nine, he was in his late 30's and bore the ethical responsibility of his actions. If there is something about her cognitive development at nine years old you have difficulty understanding then look it up.

Historically:
Betrothals were very rarely consummated until young adulthood between age similar unless of very high rank and even then the evidence was faked (blood on coverlets etc) to satisfy the politics. Courtship by the exchange of portraits etc and long letters was the norm. Amongst the lower classes it was common not to marry unless the female proved fecund (that is why I mentioned the statistics for menarche) or there was a substantial dowry.

Are you saying that a 30 year old man raping a child incapable of consent is acceptable?

No equivocation. This is a simple question that requires an affirmative or negative response.

This is the example set by what you consider your prophet sanctioned by your god and that you, personally, have accepted and defended.

" Islam does not say anywhere that the age of 9 has to be some sort of a universal standard for all muslims… In every era, societal norms are allowed to decide that (There is just one condition – the girl should NOT be pre-pubescent). So, if someone is practicing it at the cost of the girl’s education, career and so on, then that does not sit well with the principles of islam."

But if my daughter is 9 years, just, and unusually, rarely, even in this well nourished age has had her first period, she is fair game for marriage and full sexual intercourse with a full adult, much older male? Even though she cognitively is unable to make an informed decision? That sits well with you? Even with parental consent?

I will gladly answer this following question in detail when you answer mine without apologetics or waffling ( avoidance)
"how can you judge a marriage that occurred 14 centuries ago in a life situation that’s far different from ours".

(edit for spelling)

ROYISM 's picture
@ Old Man Shouts

@ Old Man Shouts

You said: “Aisha like any modern nine year old cannot be capable of a critical judgement that affects the rest of her life.”

Two things. Firstly, it’s wrong to project our notions of maturity onto a people from a different era. Alexander was 17 when he conquered the world. Emperor Akbar was 9 when he took over one of the largest empires in the world. And I can cite many more examples.

Secondly, in an era without a formal education, there is not going to be any great difference in the capabilities of a 9 year old or a 15 year old in making decisions. In a small community with strong familiar and community bonds, children learn and grow fast. Moreover, marriages are fixed by the parents, who take decisions in the best interest of their daughter. So, please don’t commit the parochial error of looking at life though your modern glasses, and claiming that that has to be the single universal standard.

You said: “The 'historical context' doesn't matter;”

Sorry. It does matter a big deal. Would you make a 17 year old high-school kid the prime minister of your country? But we had Alexander ruling the world by that age. And to this day we call him Alexander the Great. Historical context does matter.

You said: “Are you saying that a 30 year old man raping a child incapable of consent is acceptable?”

I can’t give a yes or no answer to this question, because it’s a loaded question. You have misrepresented the facts.

You are characterizing an arranged marriage as ‘rape’ because of your colored glasses. If this is rape for you, then you would have to say that not a single marriage from the ancient past was legit… they would all have to be characterized as rape. Because the average age (world over) would have been 13 or so, which according to today’s standards is still part of childhood.

You said: “But if my daughter is 9 years, just, and unusually, rarely, even in this well nourished age has had her first period, she is fair game for marriage and full sexual intercourse with a full adult, much older male?”

This is the reason I said that 9 is not some sort of a cut off mark to get girls married off. Depending on the discretion of the parents, you can marry your daughter anytime you deem fit. I wouldn’t consider marriage for my daughter until she finishes her university, and I am not in the least guilty of having broken any Islamic tenet, simply because Islam does not impose any such age restriction.

You said: “I will gladly answer this following question in detail when you answer mine without apologetics or waffling ( avoidance)”

I think I have answered it honestly. If you want, you can try and answer my question: "how can you judge a marriage that occurred 14 centuries ago in a life situation that’s far different from ours".

Sheldon's picture
"Firstly, it’s wrong to

"Firstly, it’s wrong to project our notions of maturity onto a people from a different era. "

So it was moral to marry and rape 9 year old girls then, but isn't now? How is that objective morality exactly?

Also why do old Muslim men still marry and rape children?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism

Now we have established your apologetic postion and I have had a few days to establish some research into the whole controversy some interesting conclusions.

If, indeed as you maintain that Aisha was 6 or 7 and raped at 9 or 10 by a 53 year old, it would indeed be predatory peadophelia. Despite your protestations we know enough about that aberration to make a positive identification. However it seems your passionate and erroneous defence is in vain, though if true, it would make it an aggravated offence of grooming as well.

You see, early betrothal of children was almost exclusively confined to the landed and rich and most of the unions were political. Many instances occur throughout history of such unions ( though none I could find described the rape of a minor child while she played with her dollies) and it made me wonder whether this whole "purity' and "virgin girl" with the insistence on menarche to justify the rape was, in fact a cover for a much more prosaic truth.

Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation which is a much more likely scenario, in keeping with the history and mores of the times and, bearing in mind the age of menarche much more in line with reality. Others have put her age of betrothal at 9 and consummation at fifteen.
And again you are right, but not in the way you think, Abu Bakr was very savvy and would have coached Aisha about the politics and ways to persuade, Common practice in political marriages.

The marriage was arranged to entrench the loyalty of one of Mohammed's henchmen Abu Bakr (Aishas father). The ages of 6 at betrothal just don't tie in with Mohammed's death just 9 years later and Aisha;'s recorded age during her support of Abu Bakr and her roles in the Second and Third Caliphates during the struggles of inheritance

The whole story of a beauty, prepubertal innocence and playing with dolls at the rape, seems most likely to have been to enhance the legend of Aisha's purity for the unwashed masses even though she had been betrothed before.

So, my prism is of history, statistics and known human behaviour.

I will grant you Aisha seemed to be a remarkable young woman, talented erudite and fierce when roused, much more likely in a gently treated, politically savvy young woman than an abused child. At the death of Mohammed, she was recorded to have been in her early twenties which fits much better but still not miraculous, merely mortal.

The fact that many muslims and muslim societies continue to practice the sale of their daughters and sons for temporal advantage or kin ties does not make it right. The world has come a long way since then.

Of course the biggest flaw in your argument is that you maintain that Mohammed was merely following the mores and political customs of his day. This means that god's laws are not unchanging, mohammed was merely a man of hist time doing the expedient things to cement power for himself and his dynasty.

You have a choice here a predatory peadophile or a clever, venal, scheming leader of his time? I know which I would prefer

I think I answered your question::"how can you judge a marriage that occurred 14 centuries ago in a life situation that’s far different from ours" quite comprehensively.

(edited for clarity, spelling and grammar)
(edited for name error and clarity)

Diotrephes's picture
ROYISM,

ROYISM,

Some people just like to whine about Mohammed banging a nine year-old girl in the Arabian desert in the 7th Century while ignoring the fact that the age of consent was seven (7) in America just 123 years ago (1895). And before that there was no minimum age during slavery times. You can bet that the slavers were fighting for more than cotton pickers.

In the Jewish Babylonian Talmud it approves of adults (men and women) raping toddlers as young as two years old.

Sheldon's picture
I think the difference is

I think the difference is that no one is holding those examples up as "objectively" moral. If they were then I'd tell them they were immoral scumbags as well.

ROYISM is actually claiming there is a context in which raping a nine year old child is morally ok. He's simultaneously claiming this is part of a worldview and religion that is objectively moral.

Sapporo's picture
Aisha was still playing with

Aisha was still playing with dolls when Muhammad had sex with her. Islam forbids such a practice for anything other than children.

Aisha also did not affirm consent to the marriage. She remained silent.

The age of consent should take into account physical and mental faculties. Puberty in the past happened far later than it does today. At the age of six, and nine, Aisha was a child. She was not able to give informed consent...and did not voice consent in any case.

Aisha was allegedly Muhammad's favorite wife, but it is notable that it is not recorded that she had any children in her whole life. This suggests that Muhammad damaged Aisha not just mentally, but physically, by having sex with her when she was a child.

ROYISM 's picture
@Sapporo

@Sapporo

You said: “Aisha was still playing with dolls when Muhammad had sex with her. Islam forbids such a practice for anything other than children.”

It is based on this incident that Islamic legal experts say that it is permissible for a pubescent girl to play with toys. So, the pubescence of Aisha is an established fact as far as scholars are concerned.

You said: “Aisha also did not affirm consent to the marriage. She remained silent.”

The custom of that land was that for a woman to express consent she just needs to stay silent. Only disapproval needs to be voiced.

You said: “At the age of six, and nine, Aisha was a child. She was not able to give informed consent...and did not voice consent in any case.”

You can refer to my answer to Old Man Shouts above… I have explained how the notions of maturity were different in different times, and how the world over girls married very young in the past.

You said: “This suggests that Muhammad damaged Aisha not just mentally, but physically, by having sex with her when she was a child.”

Many of the prophet’s wives (including those in the age group of 30) never bore a child. How would you explain that? It’s just a waste of time to dabble in conjectures. Bring proofs if you have any. We have from the very words of Aisha about the gentle nature of the prophet and about their healthy relationship. She went on to become one of the greatest scholars in Islam among the companions of the prophet… people would come to her to get her opinion on a variety of issues. These traits don’t look like someone who suffered abuse as a child, does it?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism
"She went on to become one of the greatest scholars in Islam among the companions of the prophet… people would come to her to get her opinion on a variety of issues. These traits don’t look like someone who suffered abuse as a child, does it?"

Actually yes, indeed it does. When a child is conditioned by authority using both 'love' and discipline ( sexual and/or psychological abuse) , both parental and by the object of a closed societal environment (bubble), a variety of the Stockholm Syndrome often kicks in, where, the critical faculties are completely disarmed and the abused person becomes one of the most loyal of the abusers disciples. Their own concept of right and wrong are suspended and they become immersed in the 'reality' presented to them by their custodians.

Again, go look it up instead of quoting your book. You might get an understanding of a terrified, abused nine year old girl in the grips of powers that she could not comprehend.

Sheldon's picture
Is it moral to marry and have

Is it moral to marry and have sex with a 9 year old girl? If not why was it moral then and not now? If it is then we're done, as you have no grasp of morality.

Sapporo's picture
No, Islam forbids adults from

@ROYISM
No, Islam forbids adults from playing with dolls. Aisha played with dolls at the time Muhammad first raped her.

Do you have any evidence that in Arabic society that remaining silent meant consent? Do you have any evidence that Aisha knew this, especially considering that her father had already arrange the marriage and did not want to refuse Muhammad?

Can you explain why Muhammad ask his wives and sex slaves to shave their public hair, apart from wishing them to appear as childlike as possible?

I have no idea if Muhammad had sex with all his wives and sex slaves, or indeed, even if he desired them to be pregnant. However, it is known that Muhammad repeatedly had sex with Aisha, and it is peculiar she is considered Muhammad's favorite but she had no children.

Stockholm Syndrome is common amongst those who have been in prolong close proximity with their captors.

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'" - Sahih Bukhari 7:62:17

"He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?" - Sahih Muslim 4:2127

'Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away for I disliked to face him."' - Sahih Bukhari 1:9:490

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. - Sahih Muslim 8:3311

A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." - Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)

It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) - Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380

It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) - Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:1982

Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. - Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) - Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

"Al-Hajjaj related to us, that Hammad related to him, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father, from ‘A’isha, who said, ‘The Messenger of God (SAAS), contracted marriage with me (after) Khadija’s death and before his emigration from Mecca, when I was six years old. After we arrived in Medina some women came to me while I was playing on a swing; my hair was like that of a boy. They dressed me up and put make-up on me, then took me to the Messenger of God (SAAS), and he consummated our marriage. I was a girl of nine.’" - Ibn Kathir

"Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to `A'ishah.' And he did, and later on Allah sent down,And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both." Ibn `Abbas said, "Whatever (legal agreement) the spouses mutually agree to is allowed." At-Tirmidhi recorded it and said, "Hasan Gharib." In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that `A'ishah said that when Sawdah bint Zam`ah became old, she forfeited her day to `A'ishah, and the Prophet used to spend Sawdah's night with `A'ishah. There is a similar narration also collected by Al-Bukhari. Al-Bukhari also recorded that `A'ishah commented: And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, that it refers to, "A man who is married to an old woman, and he does not desire her and wants to divorce her. So she says, `I forfeit my right on you.' So this Ayah was revealed."" - - Ibn Kathir

Qur'an 65:4 explicitly mentions that it is permissible for Muslim men to have sex with wives who have not reached puberty yet:
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

Sapporo's picture
I asked the Prophet, "O Allah

I asked the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! Should the women be asked for their consent to their marriage?" He said, "Yes." I said, "A virgin, if asked, feels shy and keeps quiet." He said, "Her silence means her consent." Sahih Al-Bukhari 9.79

Even Aisha thought she was raped.

ROYISM 's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

You said: “Do you have any evidence that in Arabic society that remaining silent meant consent? Do you have any evidence that Aisha knew this, especially considering that her father had already arrange the marriage and did not want to refuse Muhammad?”

There is a hadith (which you have quoted) that a woman willing for the marriage just needs to keep silent to express consent. The prophet had made consent an absolute must for the validation of marriage… so it goes without saying that consent was there.

You said: “Can you explain why Muhammad ask his wives and sex slaves to shave their public hair, apart from wishing them to appear as childlike as possible?”

It’s not just his wives or women… he advised all adults to regularly remove their pubes and armpit hairs as part of cleanliness.

You said: “However, it is known that Muhammad repeatedly had sex with Aisha, and it is peculiar she is considered Muhammad's favorite but she had no children.”

Not all of the prophet’s wives bore him children… only a few did. Now certainly you are not arguing that most of his wives were prepubescent girls, right? So, that proves nothing.

You said: “Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

Fateh al bari is not a book of hadith but an exegesis on Bukhari (a book of hadith). Now there is something we need to understand about books of exegesis. The exegete (in this case Ibn Hajar) will try to acquire all possible opinions about the subject matter before they present their opinion.
Here, ibn hajar is quoting the opinion of Al Khattabi where it says Aysha was allowed to played with dolls because she was prepubescent.

However, he then goes on to state: “Muslim scholars deduced from the context of this hadith, the permission to play with dolls regardless of age as a means to learn about matters of the home and raising children. [“Fath-ul-Bari, Explanation of Sahih Bukhari” page 143, vol 13, Imam Ibn Hajar]
Note he states “regardless of age” which undermines the opinion of Al Khattabi. Moreover, he says it’s the opinion of Muslim scholars, which indicates that there must have been many holding to this opinion.
This answers most of your other proofs showing Aysha playing with dolls… so I will skip those proofs, but if you think something important has been overlooked, just point it out.

You said: "Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'" - Sahih Bukhari 7:62:17

This hadith does not say anything to support your view that the prophet endorses marrying of prepubescent girls. If you knew the background, Jabir (narrator) married an elderly divorcee because he had little sisters who needed to be taken care of, while he was just about 20 or thereabouts. The prophet was just enquiring why he didn’t go for someone younger.

You said: "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?" - Sahih Muslim 4:2127

What are you prove by this point????

'Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away for I disliked to face him."' - Sahih Bukhari 1:9:490

If you are trying to say that Aisha didn’t like the prophet because of the statement “I disliked to face him)… then, it just means that she didn’t prefer to trouble the prophet when she needed something, and so she would just slip away quietly without bothering the prophet. This only shows her love for the prophet.

You said: “Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) - Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

Note the part that says Aysha was prepubescent is in brackets, indicating it’s not part of the hadith… as explained above, it was only the opinion of one scholar, but others have refuted it as explained already.

You said: Qur'an 65:4 explicitly mentions that it is permissible for Muslim men to have sex with wives who have not reached puberty yet:
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

This is not talking of prepubescent girls at all. When a law is being laid, it has to explain all possible situations. There are some women who do not get their cycles due to medical reasons – the condition is called amenorrhea in medical terminology. That’s what is being referred to here.

Sheldon's picture
"There is a hadith (which you

"There is a hadith (which you have quoted) that a woman willing for the marriage just needs to keep silent to express consent. The prophet had made consent an absolute must for the validation of marriage…"

That's a glaring contradiction. It is never moral for an adult to marry or have sex with someone of 9, they simply are not physically or emotionally equipped to deal with this. Do you really think it is a coincidence the men making the decisions are the ones who get to marry and rape children, but women don't marry male children?

It's an obscene practice and the sooner such religious barbarity is expunged from the world and people's thinking the better off we will be.

Sushisnake 's picture
@Royism

@Royism

“ Qur'an 65:4 explicitly mentions that it is permissible for Muslim men to have sex with wives who have not reached puberty yet:
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

You: “This is not talking of prepubescent girls at all. When a law is being laid, it has to explain all possible situations. There are some women who do not get their cycles due to medical reasons – the condition is called amenorrhea in medical terminology. That’s what is being referred to here.”

Oh yes, because amenorrhea is so terribly common – a whopping 1% to 5% of women of childbearing age will experience an episode of it annually - that the writers of the Qur’an would have known all about it in 610 CE. Nothing surer. It’s logical to infer that’s what Qur’an 65:4 refers to. After all, the Qur’an has an entire chapter devoted to gynaecological issues. Wait, what? It doesn’t ? Oh...

https://www.advancedfertility.com/amenorrhea-causes.htmhttps://www.encyc...

https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/diseases-and-conditions/pathology/...

ROYISM 's picture
@Sushisnake

@Sushisnake

You said: “Oh yes, because amenorrhea is so terribly common – a whopping 1% to 5% of women of childbearing age will experience an episode of it annually - that the writers of the Qur’an would have known all about it in 610 CE.”

I didn’t understand my reply. I was saying that Quran by this verse in question was referring to women who for various reasons don’t experience periods. One example I gave was amenorrhea… I agree that’s not very common among women. But menopause is another such condition and it’s extremely common.

CyberLN's picture
Royism, you wrote, “But

Royism, you wrote, “But menopause is another such condition and it’s extremely common.”

Given that a woman’s life expectancy in that century was 30 - 35, menopause was just not that common.

ROYISM 's picture
Cyber

Cyber

Prophets first Wife Khadija lived to be 60. He married his second wife when she was 60, a 60 year old bride, a strong reason why guidance on the period of waiting menopausal women has to be specified. Aisha herself lived the be 70... no it was not that uncommon for women to live long back then

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism
"no it was not that uncommon for women to live long back then"
For the privileged idle classes living until 40 or fifty was the norm if they didnt die in childbirth or at the hands of their husbands. Statistically it was very uncommon for a woman to live beyond 45 years when over 40% died before their 25th year.

CyberLN's picture
Royism, three examples

Royism, three examples constitutes ‘extremely common’?

Sushisnake 's picture
@Royism

@Royism

That's not how it reads:

Qur'an 65:4
a) Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months,
b) and for those who have no courses (it is the same):

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
Diotrephes's picture
Sapporo,

Sapporo,

Mohammed had lice so if the women shaved their pubic hair it wouldn't get infested with lice from him.

Sapporo's picture
@ROYISM would sooner say that

@ROYISM would sooner say that god does evil deeds than admit that Muhammad raped a child. That suggests he is incapable of saying that god is more moral than Muhammad.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism
"What is being discussed is the logic of the theology." I've just read the replies from Sheldon, Mykcob, TW and everyone else on this thread.
I agree with them (except FIG) there is no logic, no rhyme, no reason for mass suffering and individual misery. If a god as you posit exists then it is a sick, delusional, nasty entity and not worthy of adoration or worship.

As for proof I suspect you will only recycle quotes from your book, which is only proof that the 'book' exists not proof of a deity.

Further as the 'book' needs interpretation then it is subject to man's failings and is not, and cannot be a perfect document or a perfect reflection of a gods intent.

I reject your claims without evidence.

ROYISM 's picture
@ Old Man Shouts…

@ Old Man Shouts…

You said: "As for proof I suspect you will only recycle quotes from your book, which is only proof that the 'book' exists not proof of a deity.”

This discussion is never about proofs… it’s just about the logic of God’s morality. The OP was only questioning the logic behind the suffering caused by a merciful god… He was not asking for proof of God’s existence or anything of that sort.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism PROOF

@ Royism PROOF

"it’s just about the logic of God’s morality. The OP was only questioning the logic behind the suffering caused by a merciful god" There is no discernable logic to your or any Abrahamic god's recorded actions.
Having said that, yes, the Graeco Roman and Norse gods had plenty of logic , human style reactive logic to justify their actions. But your god is responsible for bone cancer? Eye worms? rape and genocide? There is a logic to that?
Why not just bypass the colon cancer and not bother facilitating the conception of a sickly child? Ticket straight to 'paradise'.

Cut out the middleman.

That's logic for an all powerful merciful perfect deity is it not?

There is no justification for suffering. None.

( edited for clarity and spelling)

Sheldon's picture
"The OP was only questioning

"The OP was only questioning the logic behind the suffering caused by a merciful god… He was not asking for proof of God’s existence or anything of that sort."

It'd be hard to evidence the first if no deity exists, the claim it exists is subjective if you can demonstrate no objective evidence for a deity's existence, hence theistic morals are entirely subjective, but unlike secular morals are forced to adhere to misogynistic bronze age patriarchal concepts of "morality".

Sheldon's picture
"suffering has to exist for

"suffering has to exist for ‘good’ to have any meaning. "

So an omnipotent omniscient deity has to create a world where children die in agony, while parents look on helplessly because this gives their lives meaning? I'm sorry that's asinine nonsense.

"However, for the suffering the child underwent, it will be duly rewarded in the hereafter, which is eternal bliss. The temporary suffering will pale into insignificance against that eternal bliss."

So this life is a meaningless stepping stone, how exactly does that absurd idea give it meaning?

mykcob4's picture
BULLSHIT Royism!

BULLSHIT Royism!
1st PROVE a god and then prove free will!

Diotrephes's picture
ROYISM,

ROYISM,

Isn't that a version of Satan will save your soul from 1 Corinthians 5:5 (ERV)? = "5 Then turn this man over to Satan. His sinful self has to be destroyed so that his spirit will be saved on the day when the Lord comes again."

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.