Best proof of NDEs from Dr. Long yet

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Russian-Tank's picture
Best proof of NDEs from Dr. Long yet

He says:

“Dr. Jeffrey Long: The key thing is to know a few of the consistently seen elements of near-death experience that are the strongest evidence for their reality. For example, when you’re under general anesthesia, it should be impossible to have a lucidic organized remembrance at that time. In fact, under anesthesia, you’re typically so far under, with general anesthesia they often have to breathe for you. I mean you’re literally, brain shut down to the level of the brain stem and at that point in time some people have a cardiac arrest, their hearts stop, and of course, that’s very well documented. They monitor people very carefully that are having general anesthesia.

So, I have dozens and dozens of near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia and at this time, it should be, if you will, doubly impossible to have a conscious remembrance, and yet they do have near-death experiences at this time, and they’re typical near-death experiences. They have the same elements and appear to have them in the same orders as near-death experiences occurring under all other circumstances. In fact, a critical survey question I asked was what their level of consciousness and alertness during the experience was.

Well, even under general anesthetics, under those powerful chemicals to produce sedation, if they had a near-death experience under general anesthesia, their level of consciousness and alertness was identical to near-death experiences occurring under all other circumstances.

There’s absolutely no way the skeptics can explain that away, it’s impossible.”

Let's go even further: statistically, 1 in 10,000 people have anesthesia awareness. Yet in his study, he had 23 cases out of 2000 patients. They were lucid, had none of the terrible side effects most people have during AA. I think this may prove it

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Tin-Man's picture
Aw, c'mon, RT! Again???

Aw, c'mon, RT! Again??? Honestly, dude, you REALLY need to find another hobby. You ever heard of Sudoku, or Kakuro, or Ken-ken? Star Trek? Baseball? Hell, freakin' porn, for cryin' out loud! Dang, man, anything other than NDE's.....*announcement over megaphone*...."Turn OFF the YouTube! Step AWAY from the YouTube!"....

Russian-Tank's picture
Tin-man I'm just saying, I

Tin-man I'm just saying, I wonder if these stats could even get atheists to change their minds

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "Tin-man I'm just saying,

Re: "Tin-man I'm just saying, I wonder if these stats could even get atheists to change their minds"

Normally, I would not presume to speak for others here. In this case, however, I am quite confident in saying, "No. It will not change anybody's mind here."

Edit to add: Unless, you get Old Man extra drunk. Then, MAYBE, you could convince him. At least until the wine wore off, anyway.

Russian-Tank's picture
Tin-man how though, could you

Tin-man how though, could you explain that 1 in 10 thousand generally have some awareness during anesthesia, mostly negative, wouzy, weird stuff, yet Long found 23 out of 2000 amazingly accurate, lucid accounts of what happened around patients including doctor comments? He has found even more accounts since then

Tin-Man's picture
@RT

@RT

Seriously, buddy, we (meaning pretty much everybody on this site) have been over this with you time and time and time again. Bottom line is, the human brain is an incredibly complex piece of "machinery", and people react to things in different ways, especially under extreme conditions. Simple as that. You have been told this countless times in many different ways. Leave the NDE nonsense alone. For your own good. This obsessive-compulsive worrying you do is not healthy, young man. Get away from the computer awhile. Go walk in the woods. Sit in a park and read some funny comics. Anything. Just get your ass away from the NDE garbage.

Sheldon's picture
"I wonder if these stats

"I wonder if these stats could even get atheists to change their minds"

About what?

THE DATA SUPPORTS NO CONCLUSION!!!

Do try and contain your hubris.

Sheldon's picture
So again a long list of

The data supports no conclusion.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - ..

Russian-Tank - ...statistically, 1 in 10,000 people have anesthesia awareness.

Where did you get that statistic?

toto974's picture
I was wondering the same

I was wondering the same things. He posts no links of the study, and this is only one study.

Russian-Tank's picture
According to Dr. Woerlee:

According to Dr. Woerlee:

"About 1:1,000 to 0.5:10,000 people experience some form of awareness during modern general anesthesia. There are even different types of awareness possible during general anesthesia. These different types of awareness are related to the three groups of drugs used to provide general anesthesia: sleep inducing drugs to provide unconsciousness, morphine-like drugs to treat the pain of surgery, and muscle paralyzing drugs to prevent reflex movements and muscle spasms. The relative concentrations of these three groups of drugs explain the four different types of awareness occurring during general anesthesia."

And if it is in fact true that 1 in 1000 to 0.5 in 10000 people have some form of awareness, how dp you explain Dr. Long getting 23 lucid amazing accounts from 2000 people?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - how [do] you

Russian-Tank - how [do] you explain Dr. Long getting 23 lucid amazing accounts from 2000 people?

Was the study double blinded? If so, please tell us the procedure.

/e a link to it would be nice also.

Sheldon's picture
Russian Tank, could you

Russian Tank, could you precisely define what you mean by NDE? I know what the initials say, but what is thescientif8c definition of a near death experience?

I'm over 50 now, should I start cataloguing them?

Russian-Tank's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

When a person is close to death, sometimes their souls leave their bodies and show them a snippit of afterlife

Sheldon's picture
Could you precisely define

Could you precisely define what you mean by soul please, and demonstrate the best objective evidence you have for it.

Your linked story evidences nothing supernatural at all. Only the human brain storing memories as it starts to die from lack of oxygen.

As others have pointed out, the research seems highly dubious as well. However even if it was valid I see nothing amounting to evidence for anything other than natural phenomena. Some of which we understand and some of which we don't.

chimp3's picture
Where did they get those

Where did they get those statistics?. Lucidity during GA is not something hospitals monitor routinely. Seems like someone is bullshitting.

David Killens's picture
Things I know

Things I know

1) The sun rises in the East
2) When I eat cheese I fart
3) Russian-Tank has an unhealthy obsession with a fantasy.

arakish's picture
Now I have to take a shower.

Now I have to take a shower.

Talk about flinging shit...

rmfr

Kataclismic's picture
My wife has woken up during

My wife has woken up during surgery more than once, while under anesthesia. Which proves that this proves nothing.

David Killens's picture
Just a snippet from https:/

Just a snippet from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4970206/

Methods

Dream reports were studied in two groups. In group 1. dreams of patients who received suggestions, and in group 2, those of the control group of patients who did not. The incidence of dream reports and the characteristics and the theme of the reported dreams were compared among the groups.

Results

In general, the control and the psychological intervention groups were different in terms of dreaming frequency, and non-recall dreaming. The incidence of dream reports was significantly higher in the suggestion group (82/190 at 10 min and 71/190 at 60 min respectively) than in the control group (16/80 at 10 min and 13/80 at 60 min, respectively; p10 = 0.001 and p60 = 0.002). There were no differences in the nature (thought- like or cinematic), quality (color or B&W) and the mood (positive vs. negative) of the recalled dreams. In general, the contents of the imaginary favorite place and the reported dream were identical in 73.2 %. Among the topics most successfully applied in the operating theater were loved ones (83.8 %), holiday (77.8 %) and sport (63.6 %).

Conclusion

The results of the present study suggest that dreams during anesthesia are influenced by suggestions administered immediately preceding anesthesia.

David Killens's picture
From https://www.reuters.com

From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dreaming-anesthesia-idUSCOL0602042007...

"In their study, the researchers assessed 300 consecutive healthy patients who were undergoing elective surgery that required general anesthesia. The Bispectral Index, a measure of the anesthetic effect on the brain, was used to gauge the depth of anesthesia during surgery. After the surgery was over, the patients were interviewed about their dreams.

Twenty-two percent of patients reported dreaming. No statistically significant difference in the average Bispectral Index value was noted between the dreamers and patients who didn’t dream, the report indicates."

These were controlled conditions. Russian-Tank you assert 1:1,000 to 0.5:10,000. I disagree because I have facts from independent studies. You get your "facts" from someone with a vested interest.

Once again, you go searching for information on NDE, and go the the very places that are guaranteed to have NDE stories.

LogicFTW's picture
@Orignal Post by RT

@Orignal Post by RT

In fact, under anesthesia, you’re typically so far under, with general anesthesia they often have to breathe for you. I mean you’re literally, brain shut down to the level of the brain stem and at that point in time some people have a cardiac arrest, their hearts stop, and of course, that’s very well documented.

I have personally seen someone put under with anesthesia, (two 5 minute shots,) and I watched the whole process from start to finish. They carefully monitored oxygen levels, but mostly certainly did not "have to breathe for you."

I also looked it up: "Once you are unconscious, your anaesthetist will take over the management of your breathing, while attending to any changes in your pulse, blood pressure and the amount of oxygen in the blood." If something goes wrong, (even the best anaesthetist can get the "guess" wrong.) And they tend to err on the side of a little to much anesthesia then too little, especially in a delicate operation because breathing for someone if too much is better than someone waking up partially all the way in the middle of the procedure.

"Throughout the operation you are given oxygen, first with the mask, and then usually through a plastic airway. There are several types of airway, each of which is a different size, depending on your age and size. The presence of an airway helps to ensure that your breathing is adequate" That is still not "breathing for you." That is just keeping oxygen levels high in a depressed system where you breath slower and have your heart beats slower.

If an anesthesiologist frequently ends up "often" (as this supposed doctor claims,) have patients where they need to breath for them, or worse cause a cardiac arrest by anesthesia that anesthesiologist should immediately be fired from their $350k a year average paying job. 90+ % of cardiac arrest by anesthesia occurs in already known high risk patients, (very old and/or very ill patients where the surgery is a high risk last ditch effort.) Both cardiac arrest and the very rare anesthesia awareness have many of their cases attributed to the patient lying about their alcohol intake, both long (anesthesia awareness) and short term, (drank a bunch of alcohol recently before the surgery and the alcohol combined with the anesthesia shuts down too much of basic motor functions.) Anesthesiologist will even order up blood alcohol content test if they suspect the patient may be lying about it. If the patient refuses, anesthesiologist will often refuse to administer anesthesia.

They monitor people very carefully that are having general anesthesia.

This is the one part that is very true.

impossible to have a conscious remembrance, and yet they do have near-death experiences at this time, and they’re typical near-death experiences.

To me that explains the entire thing. People at the edge of conscious whether its induced via anesthesia or otherwise, sometimes have the variously loosely defined "near death experience."

Taking the term near death experience literally: everyone has a near death experience when they are near death! I personally have had multiple near death experiences, almost drowned (went unconscious, had to be pulled out of the water.) nearly died of hypothermia, (no longer shivering, tunnel vision, lack of awareness, purple/blue lips, etc) And those are only my near death experiences that I had that involved my conscious diminishing as well. No out of body experience, no "glimpse of the afterlife," The drowning everything went white is the last thing I remember, the hypothermia the last thing I remember is realizing I had tunnel vision and I was in a lot of trouble, at around the last mile to shelter and help.

This doctor also fails to mention it is impossible to tell if the memory was not formed simply during the waking up of anesthesia. A test to see if the memory was formed during surgery? Put music playlist on while they are under and ask the person what music was played while they were under.

Sounds a lot like how a spiritually minded person might dream coming off major major depressant drugs. There are some drugs you can take that can cause far greater than his 1 in 100 numbers of NDE's in people, except people do not call it "near death" they just call it tripping on powerful psychoactive drugs.

Finally the most important point:
Even if people were somehow proven to have NDE's while under where the patient can glimpse into the afterlife, it proves absolutely nothing about the afterlife. It comes down to, you already need to take uncorroborated testimony with a huge grain of salt, why would we say what is essentially a dream as somehow more likely to be accurate and true? Going through a near death experience does not somehow mean a person's retelling of an event is somehow magically a more reliable factual source. It should be the opposite. It is very well known people under extreme stress, injury, and anxiety are worse than testimony from someone that observed a situation in a calm safe manner.

Russian-Tank's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

those are some good points, let me add though that many of these NDErs say that they heard their doctors say something, and the doctors will be shocked because they said that while the person was apparently "under" with no way of possibly knowing that. They also report comfortable, lucid experiences usually.

Mutorc S'yriah's picture
{ NDErs say that they heard

{ NDErs say that they heard their doctors say something, and the doctors will be shocked because they said that while the person was apparently "under" with no way of possibly knowing that. }

There must be a way, if it actually happened. I am skeptical of the statement made here, as being factual. Is there a properly presented scientific report in a recognised scientific journal, in the relevant field, which confirms this ? What is the link which we can follow, to check it out ?

David Killens's picture
At best, they are

At best, they are experiencing a dream. Just a dream.

Sapporo's picture
Russian Tank, please explain

Russian Tank, please explain how a natural experience can ever be considered proof of the supernatural.

David Killens's picture
If someone is in a NDE state

If someone is in a NDE state and has a dream of heaven or hell, the only firm conclusion we can draw is that they had a dream. Connecting a dream with a deity is still required Russian-Tank.

If I had a dream involving Bugs Bunny, is Bugs Bunny a deity?

Russian-Tank's picture
David it doesn't but it seems

David it doesn't but it seems that lots of people have consistent imagery of Jesus or demons they see. Jesus always has dark hair, pretty olive skin, or in hell ppl always see demons torturing them, mocking them, and then a hand comes down and saves them. How can these so called dreams be so consistent?

David Killens's picture
No, those dreams are not

No, those dreams are not consistent. You only see the ones that have the type of dream that you are looking for. I was in NDE state, and definitely did not see anyone with dark hair, pretty olive skin, or in hell ppl always see demons torturing them, mocking them, and then a hand comes down and saves them.

How can you explain my inconsistency, my dream definitely proves it is not consistent. And how many others dreamed about a hot girl, or a dog, or loved ones, or a pretty meadow?

I explained the process many weeks ago in another thread. When one enters a dream state, what was occupying their minds just before, can become the topic of that dream. I had been heavily researching battleship design, I dreamed about a battleship. If someone deeply religious enters this dream state, they dream about .. guess what?

And since they are deeply religious, as soon as they wake up, they run around making all kinds of noise about how they saw jesus, or heaven, angels, and stuff like that. Then some of the nuttier ones make videos, you see them, and you think that they are the only ones who had such an experience.

Dammit,now I have to make a video about how I saw a battleship while in an NDE state.

Tin-Man's picture
@David Re: "Dammit,now I

@David Re: "Dammit,now I have to make a video about how I saw a battleship while in an NDE state."

Dammit, I really wish you would. Then we can prove once and for all that battleships are REAL....Oh.... Wait....*scratching chin*...

Sheldon's picture
When I dream of unicorns they

When I dream of unicorns they're always white, that proves IT then.

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