Can Islam Coexist Peacefully?

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CyberLN's picture
Did you notice those posts

Did you notice those posts were from more than two years ago?

mountain's picture
This is only my second post

This is only my second post but I am amazed and astonished not only by the racist comments being made by Mike Pearson, Yosef san and others. But how the rest of the forum did little to challenge them on their despicable stereotypes. I am an atheist and proud to be a humanist as well. I always thought atheists resisted the kind of outrageous comments made in this forum.

Michael Bendure's picture
> Can Islam Coexist

> Can Islam Coexist Peacefully?

Absolutely, Islam has been coexisting peacefully in many countries, including the US for a long time. I'm pretty sure it's a requirement (or maybe it should be) to tolerate other beliefs or lack there of in a country that spouts Freedom of Religion.

> Essentially, in very few cases can a single person or group be said to represent a populace.

No single person can truely represent an entire populace. A group of people on the other hand could.

> However, there are situations that may suggest that these immigrants refuse to adhere to their new
> countrie's laws.

Simple, then they are subject to persecution according to the laws that community enforces.

> These are essentially areas where large Muslim populations have began enforcing Shariah law, and due
> to prevalent levels of violence, native law enforcement has been unable to ensure the freedoms for
> native minorities in those areas.

Again, that would be up to the individual community. If law enforcement can't handle the crime, that's up to the community to hire more law enforcement. Nothing special here.

> "Does Islam promote a supremist mindset of Islam in its followers, that gives rise to the illegal
> enforcement of Shariah Law?"

I think this is going to depend on how an individual interpets Islam. I never thought the phylosophy of Isam or any religious text promotes a supreme mindset if you understand and actually read the text in the context in which it was written. These are just stories or ideas, written by man, in most cases handed down several generations before anyone even wrote them down, what 2000 years ago? Anyone in this day and age that not only follows, but lives their entire lives based on any of this crap always makes me laugh and pretty much deserves whatever happens to them.

> "What is the politically correct course of actions to be taken with these situations?"

Just like any other situation. There shouldn't be any preferential treatment to any individual based on anyone's religion, nor should they be able to use their religion as justification for the crimes they commit. If I have to deal with the laws my community imposes on me, so should they, period.

mountain's picture
I am "horrified",

I am "horrified", disappointed, and "affected". Yes affected because of the racism expressed and the toleration and accepting of these views of many in this forum. Scroll back to the posts of yousef zan and Mikel Pearson. I am "amazed" that nobody(except maybe Ellie Harris) challenged the "terrible" examples of hateful views expressed by "some" in this forum.

Rose 's picture
In fairness to some Muslims,

In fairness to some Muslims, they are true to their moral values and are just affected but what others thought about the extremists.

's picture
Why do you spread false

Why do you spread false claims about Dearborn?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43451.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/sharia.asp
Not good for your credibility...

Micki's picture
According to the Quran the

According to the Quran the only way for Islam being peaceful is when the whole world becomes Islam. We will always have Muslims and non-Muslims so they will never be peace.

_7654_'s picture
I think this question is a

I think this question is a little bit more nuanced the what is presented here. First of all, all religions are capable of coexisting if they do not have a majority or access to power. All of them have the ideological constructs to stay low and not offend the proclivities of the other religions as long as the lack of power & minority situation is at hand. What changes are three things:
one: How many ( in percentage ) of the believers of said religion think it's edicts are 100% divine and true.
two: what are those edicts.
three: what percentage of those believers consider ( all ) the edicts of their religion to be followed to the letter.
you combine the answers to these three questions and you have a salient answer if a religion can coexist, or is it possible to coexist with a specific religion in a specific case.

Aaron's picture
Well it's very hard to say

Well it's very hard to say but yes they have some bad people who makes them worst and they are giving wrong definition of Quran which is big problem from my point of view and it lead them to unusual activity.

Johnny Moronic's picture
Can Islam co-exist peacefully

Can Islam co-exist peacefully? That is... not the goal of Islam. Islam has no interest in co-existing peacefully. So, ahhh... no!

Rose 's picture
The Quran have baffled the

The Quran have baffled the mind of Islam believers and they believe that their religion is so very important for the world peace. Same things in Christianity.

Raju's picture
The question you should be

The question you should be asking is not "Can Islam co-exist peacefully?", but rather, "Can any religion co-exist peacefully?"

It is true that polytheistic religions (like Greek / Roman/ Confuscian / Egyptian/ Hinduism or even latter-day Buddhism with multiple gods) and animistic religions tend to tolerate other belief systems fairly better than monotheistic ones (like Christianity/ Islam/ Judaism).

It is also true that there exists no evidence of there being any religious deities more than 10,000 years old (compared to humanity's age on the planet - at least 300,000 years. So all religion is comparatively less than 3% of humanity's age - a fancy phenomenon.

Evidence also exists that internecine religious wars have killed far more people than any other cause, including the world wars, and nuclear bombs. Include among the religious count the Crusades, the Shia-sunni wars, the massacre of Jews, etc.

Probably the second closest to religion has been Communism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot), with Oil coming in a distant third (Iraq, Syria, Egypt).

Clearly, immigrant populations stick together very closely at first (just as the initial Whites in America, the founding fathers who decimated the Red Indians and bought and sold human beings as slaves, including Lincoln), and cling closely to their superstitions, over-protecting their identity. They are more Christian than christian, more Muslim than muslim, more Hindu than hindu in their beliefs. Just as the Jews of Israel are more jewish than the rest.

Even a so-called religion of peace like Buddhism can produce massacres as evidenced in Sri Lanka and Burma.

All this combines to produce a very potent mix for disaster, combined with mumbo-jumbo of a place in heaven for the martyrs of the Crusades can forge a very deadly force!

In summary, I would say immigration of religious populations will always threaten peaceful co-existence. It just so happens that the current wave of immigrants is Islamic.

spicyharris's picture
Alright, I guess I'll be one

Alright, I guess I'll be one of the first to throw the interpretation card. I believe that a modern reformation of the Muslim world is real possibility, though it may not come as soon as some of us might wish. I used to adopt the idea that Islam is a barbarous, disgusting and vile religion that will never fully be able to coalesce with Western society, but after listening to Maajid Nawaz and others like him, I've come to the understanding that Islam is still a barbarous, disgusting, and vile religion; but as are all other religions. The Bible states many different teachings very similar and just as vicious as the Koran (Genesis 22:2, Ephesians 5:22), but the days of Christian torture, outcast, persecution, etc. are mainly gone (though some of these thoughts still exist in a very neo-type form). I believe that Muslims will one day be able to live together (or at least tolerate) with Western civilization; not Islamists or Jihadists. There's quite a distinct difference between a regular, generally conservative but perhaps liberal Muslim and an Islamist, or a Jihadist. Many Muslims despise terrorist groups like Al Qaeda or Islam, and would rather be able to integrate with modern society, yet there are some who don't, and I doubt they will ever have a seat at the discussion table in modern Western civilization. If you're interested in the subject, I highly recommend the collaboration book written by Sam Harris (atheist, obviously) and Maajid Nawaz (a liberal, Muslim reformer), "Islam and the Future of Tolerance." (https://www.samharris.org/books/islam-and-the-future-of-tolerance)

Diotrephes's picture
"In simple terms my first

"In simple terms my first question is: "Does Islam promote a supremist mindset of Islam in its followers, that gives rise to the illegal enforcement of Shariah Law?"

So my question is, "What is the politically correct course of actions to be taken with these situations?""
+++++

Muslims have co-existed with people in America since before the Revolutionary War but that's mainly because they have always been a very small minority that has never had any effective power in American society.

Today assorted muslims from different cultures are coming to America in large numbers. Although they are all muslims they don't necessarily believe the same thing. Consequently their degree of assimilation into American society will vary, with some more inclined to turn the country into a version of their former homeland while others might be more willing to merge into the broader American culture. Right now even the most liberal among them might be comparable to the typical American mindset of 1830. It will be a long time before muslims with roots in Somalia or Afghanistan wear bikinis on the beach. But American women had to cover up as well in 1920 when they went to the beach.

So far there has been no reports of muslims self-segregating themselves like the Hungarian Jews of the Satmar branch of Hasidic Judaism sect in Kiryas Joel, New York. Kiryas Joel: Theocracy in America? | The Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-n-myers/kiryas-yoel-theocracy-in-ame...

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crime/2016/05/12/kiryas-joel-raids/84282...

Welcome To Kiryas Joel: Please Dress Accordingly « CBS New York
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/31/welcome-to-kiryas-joel-please-dre...

So as long as newly arrived muslims don't engage in similar behavior as people in Kiryas Joel do they shouldn't experience any major problems as a group.

Endri's picture
Just like Christianity, no.

Just like Christianity, no. All Religions on Earth believe they are the "way", and they will always take opportunities to get rid of other religions so that they become unchallenged in the manipulation of the masses. Religions cannot peacefully coexist, believe it or not, there will always be Imams or Priests who will advocate against each other. I'd rather have Islam destroyed than to have it "coexist peacefully".

Diotrephes's picture
That's so First Commandment.

That's so First Commandment.

Gary's picture
I am really annoyed by

I am really annoyed by atheists who repeat the "no-go zones" nonsense. Atheists are supposed to be the rational ones. Muslims are already living peacefully in western nations. I see them all of the time shopping in the same grocery stores that I do, going to the same community events that I do, etc. In Canada, we have Muslims in elected office. The Mayor of Calgary is Muslim. The key for people of different backgrounds to live together is to focus on what we have in common, not what makes us different.

Gary's picture
Why the Muslim 'No-Go-Zone'
Gary's picture
How The Myth Of Lawless "No

How The Myth Of Lawless "No-Go Zones" In Sweden Took Hold Among Right-Wing Media https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldaro/no-go-zone-myth

Diotrephes's picture
Here's a 48 minute video from

Here's a 48 minute video from September 2016 in which a woman reporter goes undercover in the London mosque to record what the woman leader is teaching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEvMmAj4m5A. It's supposed to be legit.

Charvak's picture
Believe that all religions

I believe that all religions follow a trend.

They are born, rise to power, then stagnate until some reformation movement makes them more extreme or fundamentalist in nature at which time they thrash around like a fish out of water until finally they settle down accepting their redundant nature.

Islam being a relatively younger religion seems to be at the thrashing phase. The problem is that its phase corresponds to a time when weapons of mass destruction seem to be at hand and thats scary.

However to answer your question yes think Islam can coexist peacefully and will eventually settle down.

Whether it remains relevant after settling down will depend on its ability to persist in a state of irrelevance. What I mean is that just as christianity has become irrelevant in norse countries, it manages to persist because some of its doctrines and traditions are liked enough to retain even if only as just a nostalgic value or reason to celebrate of a bygone era.

This seems at present hard for Islam.

Jon Saxon's picture
I think this assumption (and

I think this assumption (and almost all other assumptions regarding Islam by atheists or liberals) would be reasonable and logical, but it lacks knowledge of Islam, and makes incorrect assumptions. Its a trap too many people fall into - I know a few religions, and so the next must be the same. Its also what all Muslims would like you to believe, so there is a very strong bias towards any such coverage.

Its actually not that difficult to see the differences and explain in a far better way (other than its 1400 years young vs. 2000 years old), why Islam is the way it is. The only difficult part of this research is being willing to accept the possibility that the common consensus among liberals is misguided. But changing one's mind is more than most are willing to go.

If one can overcome that hurdle, then you just need to read the Quran to understand the difference (and then the global circumstantial evidence becomes so much more understandable). Not a list of verses cherry picked to show a point (for or against), but the whole thing, or even some randomly selected section. This is so much easier than people imagine - anyone can do it - you don't need to be some super scholar. Quran is NOT like the bible. Its like comparing getting your morals from Harry Potter or from the constitution. You can take anything you like from Harry Potter. If you think killing is bad, then you'll find the parts that you feel enforce that, and if you think killing is good you can do the same. Its not that there isn't the odd clear rule here and there, but its the exception. So the moral compass can be taken to any direction followers want to, and so, over time, the religion will conform to the norms of the era. Not so with a constitution - it is rigid and accurate, and there are far fewer ambiguities. Its not a story you have to pull the morals out of - Rules are stated as clearly as they could be. The only thing you can do is say "I choose not to follow that rule", but anyone reading the constitution will immediatly know you are not following it.

Given that reading the Quran is not that difficult in the age of Google, I think anyone arguing anything about Islam should spend a minimum of an hour reading at least part of the text in full (not going off any cherry-picked list). I find it surprising how few do that (but I'm ashamed to say I have done it relatively recently, so I know most of the excuses, and I can promise you they are all BS).

xenoview's picture
Necromancy at work!

Necromancy at work!

Mike's picture
Hi all. Just a small

Hi all. Just a small observation. Lots of condemning of different religions on this thread which I have no problem with but as we all will agree, religion in and of itself is very violent physically as well as mentally. So in my simple minded way, I think the answer to the original question is simply no because there are very few if any religions that can live along side any group that does not or will not share their views. So at this point there is no politically correct answer that will satisfy anyone including those who have no belief. When religion becomes the mythical history of the past, people may embrace inclusiveness for all. Doubtful though because of our need to be lead by someone and be part of something better than the next group.

MCD's picture
Islam cannot co-exist

Islam cannot co-exist peacefully with islam. Not a day goes by without some muslim killing or bombing members of other sects of islam... like sunni and shiite.

Sea of Madness's picture
I'm afraid my positions on

I'm afraid my positions on Islam and immigration set me apart from most atheists and liberals. My message to all immigrants is the following: I don't have to appropriate your culture (and I won't), I think your culture sucks and I don't have to put up with you coming here undermining our secular laws and refusing to integrate, I won't see my beautiful western society Islamized (or overrun by any sub-standard values), so don't for one second think that playing a victim card is going to work on me. You're welcome to be here and seek the American Dream, but you WILL integrate, and you WILL adopt western values. Don't even think about venturing over here unless you agree to the above and plan to proceed accordingly.

Lisa Williams's picture
Under normal circumstances, i

Under normal circumstances, i would argue that one should read the Qur'an - that is the sole foundation of Islam - to understand if it can coexist peacefully, however, it has been made abundantly clear that Muslims are overriding the obligations in our countries e.g. introducing Sharia communities and forcing the law to change regarding full-face concealment. This illustrates that Islam cannot coexist, never mind peacefully.

Islam is a religion which has and does promote mass genocide of the kuffar. It's really important to note that Islam is expansionist and completely intolerant to the infidels. Islam is therefore most certainly not a 'religion of peace'.

The solution to this problem is that countries conduct a mass deportation scheme to completely rid our civilised societies of this monstrous and intolerant religion which encourages our deaths. We are not eradicating their freedom of religion, we are protecting our own societies whilst distancing violent ideologies from our children. Muslims can practice Islam in Islamic countries, not countries dominated by us kuffar.

ROYISM 's picture
@ Lisa Williams

@ Lisa Williams

You said: Islam is a religion which has and does promote mass genocide of the kuffar. It's really important to note that Islam is expansionist and completely intolerant to the infidels. Islam is therefore most certainly not a 'religion of peace'.

Can you provide your proof please?

Lisa Williams's picture
Provide proof? Just read the

Provide proof? Just read the Qur'an - the entire foundation of Islam relies upon the Qur'an. If you would like me to be even more specific, look at the passages towards the end where Mohammed teaches his most violent ideologies. Would you like me to give you some quotes?

ROYISM 's picture
Hi Lisa

Hi Lisa

Yes of course. Please give the verses with reference.

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