Can Islam Coexist Peacefully?

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Sheldon's picture
"he solution to this problem

"he solution to this problem is that countries conduct a mass deportation scheme to completely rid our civilised societies of this monstrous and intolerant religion which encourages our deaths. "

No this is not the solution, and you are advocating bigotry against people who do not fit your stereotype. Attacking religions and their ideas is acceptable, but making blanket attacks on adherents of a religion is absurd and immoral. You fight an idea with a better idea, by promoting a free education and protecting the rights of the individual. There many millions of Muslims who are decent people, and though the Koran whilst vile in places in no more abhorrent than the bible. You don't protect people's rights and freedoms by removing those rights and freedoms.

Lisa Williams's picture
Then unfortunately, you are

Then unfortunately, you are part of the problem.

If I am "advocating bigotry" by opposing something which wants me dead or to submit to something so violent and oppressive as Islam, then what on earth do you think Muslims are doing?

Anybody who voluntarily identifies as Muslim after seeing the mass genocide it causes (and having read the Qur'an) is posing a massive threat to society. Would you have the same view if we were talking about Nazi's?

And I also think it's important to note that I also oppose Christianity, however, Christianity does not promote/encourage the mass destruction of non-believers as much as Islam does.

Islamic countries have their own "rights and freedoms" based entirely upon the foundations in which Muslims base their beliefs off - the Qur'an. My solution would simply allow Muslims to live in an Islamic society which advocates and practices their beliefs whilst prohibiting it from spreading to civilised societies because, as we both know, Islamic countries really don't "protect people's rights and freedoms".

Sheldon's picture
"If I am "advocating bigotry"

"If I am "advocating bigotry" by opposing something which wants me dead or to submit to something so violent and oppressive as Islam, then what on earth do you think Muslims are doing?"

That a very dishonest distortion of what i said, the bigotry is in your blanket condemnation of millions of Muslims, and the negative stereotype you are trying to portray as a legitimate criticism of Islamic doctrine, doctrine that most Muslims no more adhere to than most Christians think slavery and stoning to death is still acceptable.

Mass deportations of people based on their religious identification, if you can't see the obvious symmetry there with the Nazi persecution of the Jews then that's deeply worrying.

"Anybody who voluntarily identifies as Muslim after seeing the mass genocide it causes (and having read the Qur'an) is posing a massive threat to society."

Absurd nonsense, and Christians kills as many people worldwide as Muslims. radical Islam is something i oppose and for obvious reasons, but to suggest all Muslims or even a majority of them pose this threat is asinine, and makes me seriously winder about your motives here.

"And I also think it's important to note that I also oppose Christianity, however, Christianity does not promote/encourage the mass destruction of non-believers as much as Islam does."

Do you propose the mass deportation of Christians? You also keep saying Islam, but it is the Koran that has passages endorsing murder, though mass destruction is yet another dishonest distortion, Islam involves over a billion adherents worldwide, and to make a blanket claim about them all promoting or encouraging mass destruction is quite demonstrable untrue.

"Islamic countries have their own "rights and freedoms" based entirely upon the foundations in which Muslims base their beliefs off - the Qur'an. "

Yes different countries have evolved different cultures and beliefs, and in the modern era with ubiquitous global travel these cultures are coming into close proximity and conflict, but this still doesn't justify using fear to promote bigotry.

"My solution would simply allow Muslims to live in an Islamic society"

Allow? Why should you or anyone else have any say where a UK citizen lives? You don't seem to grasp your extremist views are precisely what Muslim extremists hope for in order to play on people's ignorance and fears to produce a wider conflict. There is plenty in Islam to criticise, but this does not justify attacking people just because they are Muslims.

"Islamic countries really don't "protect people's rights and freedoms"."

Well I'm failing to see how "mass deportations" is representative of protecting people's rights and freedoms. It's only a right if everyone has it, otherwise it's a privilege and i don't want to live in a society that persecutes people, for any reason. You attack and criticise ideas because they are immoral or unjust, you don't attack people because they may think differently to you or hold different beliefs.

Lisa Williams's picture
Koran 9:5 "slay the idolaters

Koran 9:5 "slay the idolaters"

Koran 4: 74 "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward"

Koran 5:32-33 "whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind... The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified" Corruption of the earth is referring to those who reject Allah and Mohammed.

Koran 5:72 "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The messiah said: O children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."

Koran 9: 36 "wage war on all the idolaters"

May I ask if you have read the Qur'an in its entirety? It just seems bizarre that for you to classify yourself as a Muslim, you are either completely oblivious to the warmonger Mohammed or pretending to be unaware of the atrocities in the Qur'an. I assure you that there are many many more quotes promoting violence in this piece of hate literature.

ROYISM 's picture
Hi Lisa Williams

Hi Lisa Williams

So, let’s look at your references one by one.

Your quoted Koran 9:5 "slay the idolaters"

Please start reading from verse 1, and you will understand that it’s talking about a particular situation in Arabia, when the muslims were in a treaty with the idolators and they kept breaking the treaty whenever it suited them, bringing harm upon muslims. So, Quran is exhorting muslims to fight such idolators (who broke their treaties). And it’s not some kind of a universal commandment.

If it’s like what you interpret it, then how would you make sense of the verses that follow;

9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you

9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

Then you quoted Koran 4: 74 "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward"

This verse has nothing in it to suggest that it’s asking you to fight innocent idolaters who mind their business and live their lives. Rather, if you just read the next verse, you will understand what it’s all about.

4:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

So, here Quran is exhorting you to fight in the cause the oppressed and save them from oppression.

Then you quoted Koran 5:32-33 "whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind... The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified" Corruption of the earth is referring to those who reject Allah and Mohammed.

However, the last line in that quotation is just an interpretation, not part of the text. Corruption is not referring to the rejection of Allah and Muhammed (PBUH). If that were the case, then the prophet would not have lived peacefully with the jews and idolaters in Medina.

You then referenced Koran 5:72 "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The messiah said: O children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."

This has nothing to do with fighting or war. This is talking about the hereafter. Yes, idolatry and worshipping the creations is a grave sin in Islam. But those sins have no worldly punishments in Islam, only after-life consequences, which need not bother anyone who doesn’t believe in it.

Then you quoted Koran 9: 36 "wage war on all the idolaters"

If you read the full verse you will see it mentioning this: “… and fight against them collectively as they fight against you collectively…” It’s only talking about fighting in retaliation.

So there you stand. Please take off your colored glasses and read the verses for what they are, and you will see that there is nothing unjust in those verses.

Lisa Williams's picture
Are you familiar with the

Are you familiar with the term 'abrogation'?

Many muslims are committing atrocious acts due to verses like the ones i have stated. The verses you have stated are cancelled out by later abrogations and hence the 1400 years of jihadi attacks.

Your religion is completely intolerant, but like most muslims practicing the arts of taqiyya, you decide to pick verses which are later cancelled by more violent verses. Mohammed resorts to killing and enslaving the pagans of Mecca who accepted his religion and tolerated him. Mohammed is anything but tolerant to the kuffar as shown in both the later, more precedent verses in the Qur'an and the biography of Mohammed. Not to mention the numerous books explaining the conquers Islam has made since the 7th century and is continuing to do to create an Islamic Empire.

Muslims have two world view: Dar-al harb (war when nations have not subjected to Islamic law) as dar-al Islam ('peace' when all nations have subjected to Islam).

ROYISM 's picture
HI Lisa Williams

HI Lisa Williams

You said: “The verses you have stated are cancelled out by later abrogations and hence the 1400 years of jihadi attacks.”

Excuse me… you are the one who stated them… if they were abrogated, then you should have quoted the verses that replaced them. So bring your proofs please.

You said: “Your religion is completely intolerant, but like most muslims practicing the arts of taqiyya, you decide to pick verses which are later cancelled by more violent verses.”

Once again… I didn’t pick these verses. You picked them and now you say these are abrogated verses. So tell me which verses abrogated them.

You said: “Mohammed resorts to killing and enslaving the pagans of Mecca who accepted his religion and tolerated him. Mohammed is anything but tolerant to the kuffar as shown in both the later, more precedent verses in the Qur'an and the biography of Mohammed. Not to mention the numerous books explaining the conquers Islam has made since the 7th century and is continuing to do to create an Islamic Empire.”

These are just you assertions. You venting your anger can’t be accepted as proof. If you are prepared for an intellectual discussion, let’s cut all these emotional nonsense and let the proofs speak.

Lisa Williams's picture
You misunderstand, the

You misunderstand, the quotations I used are not abrogated but the ones you have used to disprove mine are. You decide to quote the verses 9:4 and 9:6 but fail to mention 9:5. I wonder why... Oh wait, 9:5 states: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."

As for 9:6, the verse 9:26 states: "Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon his messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward for disbelievers." So much for protecting those who feared Mohammed's lust for violence...

As for your quote from 4:75, we can quite clearly see that Allah is not referring to the oppressed as a whole, but of the oppressed Muslims, for example, 4:76: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."

Linking to the above point, the 4:89 states "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye be upon level. So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them".

"idolatry and worshipping the creations is a grave sin in Islam. But those sins have no worldly punishments in Islam, only after-life consequences, which need not bother anyone who doesn’t believe in it." Are you even aware of Sharia Law? It explicitly states that apostasy is punishable by death, that means that anybody who leaves Islam to become either an atheist or follower of another religion is permitted to be killed! You can't even marry somebody who follows another religion/is an atheist. You are an absolute insult to all your brothers and sisters who are forced to follow Islam due to the fear of apostasy. You are once again demonstrating taqiyya.

"So there you stand". Just like everybody else who has to suffer and 'tolerate' your disgusting and vile religion, I am angry. And I have every single right to be. But unlike some cowards who wont stand up against you, I will and I will continue to inform anybody who denies Islam as a religion of war, the true doctrines of Islam.

ROYISM 's picture
@lisa

@lisa

I was expecting some proofs for your arguments. As you have produced none, I think I would be justified in concluding that you have no valid arguments to put forth.

As for the rest of your hate-filled vitriol it just says a lot about your nature than Islam.

Lisa Williams's picture
@valiya s sajjad

@valiya s sajjad

It was made abundantly clear from your first comment asking for proof that Islam promotes mass hate for us kuffar, that you are either totally ignorant to the teachings of the Qur'an or demonstrating taqiyya.

Even when evidence is provided, you still state that i have given no proof. What a way to end a discussion.

If you are sincerely opposed to violence, then you will quit identifying yourself with Islam. Until then, the only person here who is "hate-filled" is you.

ROYISM 's picture
Hi Lisa Williams

Hi Lisa Williams

Let me begin with an apology. As I was browsing the thread on my phone, I mistook your reply to Sheldon as being directed at me, and hence the confusion. So let’s look at your rebuttal now.

You said: “You misunderstand, the quotations I used are not abrogated but the ones you have used to disprove mine are.”

The verses I quoted are not from some other part of the book. They are all from the opening section of the chapter. All these verses were revealed simultaneously. Looks like you don’t have much idea about asbab un nuzool (science of revelation).

You said: “You decide to quote the verses 9:4 and 9:6 but fail to mention 9:5. I wonder why...”

9:5 was the verse you quoted, and that was the verse I was putting in context with the help of the verses that came before and after it. So, your charge that I didn’t quote this particular verse is lame.

You then stated: “9:5 states: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."

Look how the verse starts, “Then”… which means grammatically it continues from the previous verse. Which is why you need to understand the verses that come before it and not take it in isolation and jump to conclusions. Moreover, you have just disproved your own argument of abrogation now. Because, if the verse that came before it abrogates the verse that came after it, they cannot be linked in this fashion.

And then you stated: “As for 9:6, the verse 9:26 states: "Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon his messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward for disbelievers." So much for protecting those who feared Mohammed's lust for violence...”

So, now you have taken a huge leap to the 26th verse. And if you even had an iota of understanding of Islamic history, you would know that this verse is referring to the battle of badr where Allah sent angels to help the weak band of muslims against a powerful and larger enemy. Who are these ‘hosts ye could not see’? It’s a reference to the angels. Whereas, the opening verses of the chapter is a reference to the events at the conquest of Mecca (at the fag end of Islamic history). Your exegetical skills are pretty basic.

You said: “As for your quote from 4:75, we can quite clearly see that Allah is not referring to the oppressed as a whole, but of the oppressed Muslims”

Even if I concede that point to you, it does not become a proof for your charge that islam is exhorting senseless violence. Fighting for the oppressed (muslim or otherwise) can’t be categorized as unjust.

You said: “for example, 4:76: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."

It’s the same tactic you are using again. There is a verse which explains the context clearly – which is fighting for the oppressed. And following that is another verse which lays the moral ground for that conflict. But you are overlooking the first verse. Yes, idolatry is a despicable sin in Islam. But the consequences of that sin are to be faced in the next life. In this world we are not supposed to kill or oppress on the basis of faith. However, if the idolaters are going to oppress muslims, then we must fight. And those who fight on the side of this idolatry represent the devil. The distinctions of good and evil are being made clear here.

Linking to the above point, the 4:89 states "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye be upon level. So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them".

To make full sense of that verse, you need to read the one that follows immediately after, 4:90 -Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

This was revealed at a time when the fledgling muslim nation was formed after the migration of muslims to medina. But in order to sow confusion, the polytheists would pretend to accept Islam and join the new nation. They would work as spies for a while and then leave the fold of Islam and go back to Mecca. It was in order to stop this devious tactic of the meccan polytheists that the verse you quoted was revealed. So, if anyone was to join the ranks and turn back, they were to be dealt with harshly. And there was a big exception to it: which is that if those who come have been personally given refuge by someone from the muslim camp. This is a sort of an espousal of the person’s credibility, and of course there are other conditions also, as the verse clarifies. The point is that this is not about killing idolaters for their faith. Rather it was a measure to deal with a security situation in a fledgling nation.

You said: “Are you even aware of Sharia Law? It explicitly states that apostasy is punishable by death,”

If you are going to pick and choose from a wide range of interpretations of Islam, it’s not very hard to caricature islam any which you want. There are muslims who say we can worship dead saints, which can’t be farther from the foundational principles of islam. So, these extreme views about killing apostates is not some sort of cornerstone in islam. IN fact, this view arises from a hadith that’s in fact referring to the situation I stated above. When non-Muslims were joining the ranks for spying and later defected sowing confusion, it was as a measure to deal with them that this injunction was pronounced. But again, not a single soul was actually put to the sword on the basis of apostasy in the lifetime of the prophet or the rightly guided caliphs.

Lisa Williams's picture
@valiyya s sajjad

@valiyya s sajjad

I accept your apology; unfortunately, the way the threads are ordered is quite confusing.

Your argument against mine regarding abrogation doesn't seem to be considering the fact that the QUOTATIONS (not whole verses) I have used to clarify my argument are not abrogated by the verses you have chosen. It is clear that Mohammed was waging war and preaching violent tactics towards the end of the Qur'an but it seems as though you are going to refuse to accept this. The entire purpose of Islam is to hold an Islamic Empire with a Caliphate and this has/is being demonstrated by the mass influx and rising population of Islam across the world.

As for picking and choosing "from a wide range of interpretations of Islam", anything that derives from the Qur'an is Islamic. Sharia Law is founded from the Qur'an, it's not an interpretation from Islam as whole (e.g. Muslim denominations).

Lastly, when you say: "not a single soul was actually put to the sword on the basis of apostasy in the lifetime of the prophet or the rightly guided caliphs." I suggest you read about the scribe Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh.

ROYISM 's picture
HYG

HYG

@ Lisa Williams

You said: “Your argument against mine regarding abrogation doesn't seem to be considering the fact that the QUOTATIONS (not whole verses) I have used to clarify my argument are not abrogated by the verses you have chosen.”

Of course no. I am NOT saying the verses are abrogated. I am just saying that my verses are lending greater perspective to the verses you have quoted. They don’t cancel out, but add more meaning. Hope that’s clear.

You said: “The entire purpose of Islam is to hold an Islamic Empire with a Caliphate and this has/is being demonstrated by the mass influx and rising population of Islam across the world.”

These are just assertions. Probably, you should give some proofs. How does the rising population of Islam across the world demonstrate a hidden agenda of a global take over? Are you saying that these people are moving in with a conspiracy on their minds? I don’t understand.

You said: “As for picking and choosing "from a wide range of interpretations of Islam", anything that derives from the Qur'an is Islamic.”

You are right. So then where does the quran say ‘kill apostates’?

You said: “I suggest you read about the scribe Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh.”

Please explain and tell me your source as well, so I can refer.

Agnostic Prophet's picture
I would argue that NO

I would argue that NO religion can coexist peacefully. All religions believe that they hold the "truth" and that all believers should indoctrinate all non-believers. I can only speak about the Bible as that is the holy book I know the most, but in it it advocates the murder of heathens, I am reliably told the Qu'ran says the same. All the religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones, promote intolerence and bigotry. Even religions which I thought were peaceful can ve used for hate. Buddism for example I thought was a religion that preaches non-violence and tolerance, but even with this religion you get extremists in Myanmar killing Muslims.

There is a lot of killing involved on something that is so important to people, but is yet be proven. It is like one saying I heard;
Religion is all about killing each other to find out who has the best imaginary friend.
It is all B.S.

Shutokan's picture
First, have you read the

First, have you read the quran? It will explain a lot about a supremacist mindset. Second, laws should be enforced, Shariah is not the law of democratic countries and law enforcement needs to start applying the enforcement part of their jobs.

Cognostic's picture
Islam like Christianity, can

Islam like Christianity, can not co-exist peacefully with itself.

CyberLN's picture
^^^ That ^^^

^^^ That ^^^

the universal's picture
Hello.

Hello. This is a really nice forum.

One of the MAjOR problems that neighboring pagan Arabians had with Mohammad was that He tried to spread His religion to pagan Arabians, teaching ideas and making claims that were contradicted by the Bible and the Gospels of His day.
When Mohammad could not sell and market and gain support for His new religion, His revelations and new prophecy and His business was unable to sell, market and propagate. The Quran says that Mohammad’s business failed and His message was denied and rejected and He failed to persuade the leaders of the tribes to accept His revelatory, spiritual proclamations.

We find that Mohammad was teaching a religion to others who were not even familiar with any of His prophecies, revelations and spiritual claims, there were none of these previous scriptures existing, no known history of any Arabians, Ishmaelite / gentiles from Mohammad's family who were ever even historically worshiping the God Of Abraham.

And Mohammad's family were never even known to be the descendants of Ishmael. This REVELATION of His was only a prophetic, revelation and all spiritually conceived claims that Mohammad claimed to have received from a spiritual contact. Mohammad's message was not a historical accurate religion contained in the Gospels and Torah or history, but a perverted, twisted, deformed, distorted invalid message that failed and was denied as even being a valid religion of anyone on the planet.

The Prophet Muhammad created a gang, an army of forty male followers who acted as an army or military who manipulated and organized against others around them and when it turned violent Mohammad attacked His fellow Arabian people by destroying 360 idols that were kept inside the Kaaba in Mecca.

These Meccan Arabians had no history or association in their history or present lives that involved them in a covenant, contract, loyalty oath or pledge to anything involving the God Of Abraham or Mohammad.

Yet Mohammad violently smashed every single last Idol that they had and destroyed their livelihood and entrepreneurship and completely broke their economy and hit them with the most devastating blow that He possibly could. He destroyed their lives, property and destroyed their reputation, HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS and temple gods and He wrecked their entire business system, throwing the entire region into a heated conflict. From there onward the Arabians who tried to disband and break apart His terrorist activities were met with death and were murdered by the thousands.

The forum here has untruthful statements that have been left unchallenged and the fact is that Mohammad and Muslims did attack and did violently disrupt people’s lives who had never converted to Islam and these people were simply trying to protect their tradition, pagan religion and business while rejecting Mohammad and His revelatory prophecies.

Cognostic's picture
Christiantiy:

Christiantiy:
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. (Deuteronomy 13)

And according to Jesus - "18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The Koran has a different take on things:
Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

NOW, ALL THINGS SAID AND DONE, I SEE NO REASON AT ALL THAT THESE TWO GROUPS CAN NOT SIT DOWN TOGETHER OVER A CUP OF TEA AND IRON THINGS OUT.. After all, both Islam and Christianity are religions of peace.

Cognostic's picture
Christiantiy:

Christiantiy:
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. (Deuteronomy 13)

And according to Jesus - "18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The Koran has a different take on things:
Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

NOW, ALL THINGS SAID AND DONE, I SEE NO REASON AT ALL THAT THESE TWO GROUPS CAN NOT SIT DOWN TOGETHER OVER A CUP OF TEA AND IRON THINGS OUT.. After all, both Islam and Christianity are religions of peace.

arakish's picture
There is one summary I gave

There is one summary I gave for ALL Abrahamic religions and their tens of thousands of sects. Have had very few agree with it, but here it is.

"You are to live in peace, joy, and brotherhood with those of like minds (same beliefs), but all others are to be put to the sword (killed)."

That is my summation.

rmfr

Terminal Dogma's picture
Islam is more monolithic with

Islam is more monolithic with a more coherent text than Christianity. as Christianity continues to diverge into more splinter groups all contradicting each other Islam grows bigger and stronger.

Man in search of truth's picture
If you really want an honest

If you really want an honest answer to your question i suggest you find someone that understands and can honestly answer that question for you. If you haven't noticed these forums are full of trolls and islamaphobes that have self admitted they have never read nor want to read the Quran yet have the stupidity to give their opinion on. I suggest you go to your local mosque and ask that question, if you don't have a local mosque i can suggest a few websites or we can have a private chat then you decide for yourself. Asking an atheist that believes he himself is nothing more than a random mistake on this earth about any religion is not the right way to get an honest answer. Oh, and this goes for any religion not just Islam. Understanding anything in this world (including religion) needs to be understood in its proper context, not the misguided views the media puts on every religion. I have read some of the replies to your questions and can without a shadow of a doubt, 1005 factually tell you that they are all wrong. Yes, i said for a fact which seems to be taboo around here

the universal's picture
The Bible is simply equating

The Bible is simply equating the acts of the enemies of the Jews as serving other gods.
The other gods allowed and condoned and expected murder and violence and destruction from their followers.

While obeying the simple LAW of not endangering innocent people and not murdering and spreading diseases and sickness and not burning your child in a fire to the other god
WAS SIMPLY following the RULES of the god of the Bible.

Even though Atheists like myself may know that this God never really ever existed.

I apologize for the deception of my fellow Atheists who mockingly and ignorantly pretend that there are similar books like Deuteronomy and Leviticus in the Quran.
This foolish assumption is rampant among my atheist community as they ignorantly are never able to prove anything they claim and yet continue to spread their foolishness and deceptions.

My Atheist community is lying and or ignorant of Deuteronomy 13 and most of the Bible, in fact, they are simply not being honest or they are ignorant or probably both. As an atheist myself I have noticed that most of the Atheists community around the world is completely ignorant as they pretend to consent to the blind, ignorantly told falsehood that The Quran commanding finding the unbelievers and kill them wherever You find them is an equivalent or the same or similar commandments of the Bible in Deuteronomy 13.
The fact is that Jesus and the prophets of Old Testament times lived at a time when many plagues, diseases, sicknesses, cancers, disorders, epidemics and incurable problems existed in the region for which there were no remedies and prescriptions. There were no cures, no treatment, no modern tools and medicines at the Time Of Bible Days.

In the bible, they did not have medical treatments. Risky, knowing disease spreading and murdering behaving people had to be removed from society, especially if they were a danger to your family, sons and daughters and children and wives. There were risks of infection spreading to the food and water supplies. There were no hospitals, doctors or any antibacterial treatments. If the risky behaving people continue on and on to come near Your Family and city, endangering their lives! - You must take necessary action that prevents them from causing the disease to be spread to Your family and loved ones and also prevent the diseases from spreading to unsuspecting unknowing innocent children and other victims and families.

The prophets and wise, godly men – found that the best way is to be safe.
Once You catch a Virus, Germ, Disease, Infection or anything - You are finished. You are { Done }. - Your family and all others who You come into contact with are also doomed to suffer a life of horrible agony, suffering, and horrible pain - dying slowly from a plague or a disease or a virus or symptom.

Atheists disregard all of these facts. But in the Bible, there were no cures, nothing but a lifetime of suffering and agony, living in horrible pain.
As an atheist, I have read the Bible and The Quran and I look and see all of the other Atheists going around telling lies about the Bible and using the Quran to attack the Bible using Old Testament stories and passages and inventing a false narrative as they distort and completely change the story.

Atheists often ignore the entire picture of the passages and the sequence of events and the whole situations and historical environmental realities and they retell the Old Testament stories and verses of The Bible, adding untruths about what they say while they greatly subtract many important details of the passages.

For eXample many Atheists throw up alarms and great shock and hystericals about the stories of God commanding the Israelites to slaughter and kill whole cities of women and children. But the Atheists never mention the fact that the Israelites had been in a war with these people and were surrounded and outnumbered by neighboring cities and civilizations who were terrorizing and attacking the Israelites, from the time of Abraham, down to King Saul here in Deu 25.

Deu 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; :18 How he met thee by the way and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee when thou wast faint and weary.

The Amelikites and other surrounding NATIONS were terrorists and here Deu 12 and 13 they also were at war with the Jews. The Deu 12 and 13 warns that the Jews Take heed and not be snared by following them because they commit every abomination to the LORD.

These abominations were committing BLOOD CRIMEs that were spreading sickness to innocent victims.

The Bible explains all of this is precise details, yet Atheists pretend that they are confused between the Quran and the Bible.

Atheists pretend that The entire book of Deuteronomy and Leviticus has not explained every single one of the details of the violent, evil behaviors of the neighbors of the Israelites who were allied against Israel and attacking them ...... for even their sons and their daughters, they have burnt in the fire to their gods. ....

Lev 18:3 ... ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, do not walk in their ordinances. Lev 18:7 INCEST - causing blood problems. - Lev 18:20 Adultery - causing blood problems. - Lev 18:21 BURNING Children in a fire.

Lev 18:22 HOMOSEXUALITY - causing blood problems. Lev 18:23 BEASTALITY - causing blood problems. Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled afflicted and raped.

The Hebrew word defiled here means literally affliction, torment, and rape.

So we have multiple cities of terrorists who are serving another god who commands and expects that they torture little children by killing and burning them in the fire to appease their gods. These people serving other gods do nothing but evil, violence and they defile, rape and terrorize everything around them - burning their little children in the fire, they are committing incest, bestiality, homosexuality and are filled with disease, danger, violence and terrorists whose entire cities are filled with people who are committed to destroying and raping and exterminating their neighbor. { Israel. }

If Atheists would look and see what The United States had to do when hit hard with massive attacks such as in WW ll - They would find that America killed millions of woman and children far exceeding any women and children that the Israelites were also forced to kill. Many Atheists who are dishonest or ignorant about the Bible mentioning this fact, through inversion Atheists always leave all of these verses out of the story and pretend that the Israelites themselves were the terrorists and were serving a terrorist ideology and God.
When it is nothing but the total and complete opposite. Many Atheists in effect are siding with the terrorists.

The Amalekites and other evil cities were filled with disease, germs, sickness, bestiality, homosexuality, child / murder sacrifice by heat and fire to the other gods.

Their entire eXistance revolved around raising their own children to make eternal, perpetual never-ending war and an absolute violent terroristic extermination campaign upon the Israelites. Killing the women and children was the last resort and only solution that the Israelites had after 400 years of being attacked, terrorized, assailed and physically, violently assaulted by these Amalekites and their surrounding neighbors.
The Bible explains all that the Amalekites and their neighbors had done and who they were and why The Israelites were forced to completely end their reign of terror that had lasted for 500 years of nothing but attacks and violence upon the Israelites as these enemies determined to eXterminate them and destroy them. This defense was the only possible chance of survival that the Israelites had as they were surrounded and attacked from all sides and greatly, greatly outnumbered by the most violent, brutal, evil, perverted and cruel people that have ever been known to have existed.

The Bible clarifies how that the Israelites were attacked without mercy by all of their neighbors. If Atheists can also acknowledge that the Israelites were up against the entire forces of the Middle East and greatly, greatly massively outnumbered and surrounded, as they were attacked them from the rear and their weak and old and sick and their women and children were being slaughtered.

The war against entire cities whose children and populations and civilizations were raised, trained and programmed to do nothing but attack and kill the Israelites created no other choice but to survive and destroying entire cities women and children of their enemies was the only way to survive and for their own Israeli children to have a future. The Bible is very, very clear. Their NEIGHBORS / enemies outnumbered them and were determined to exterminating them. The only choice that the Israelites had was to eXterminate them before they themselves were exterminated. The United States also, in its effort to survive and save lives of Americans also was forced to bomb entire cities, killing millions of civilians.
deceiving Atheists simply have no scriptures or facts for their faith and claims.
I also believe that Islam as a religion is incapable of understanding or identifying with these facts because Muslims nor Mohammad are physical descendants of Abraham. But rather the descendants of all of the surrounding neighbors of the Israelites.

Would My fellow Atheists be willing to wipe out a whole city whose inhabitants were spreading diseases, plagues, viruses and uncleanness and burning and torturing little children in the fire to serve a god ?

Would My fellow Atheists be willing to wipe out a whole city whose inhabitants were into bestiality, incest and other dangerous acts of bloody violence whereby their entire existence revolved around exterminating and violently wiping out the Atheist community with violence and bloodshed ?

To the Jews, the other gods represented all of the other neighboring nations who were constantly attacking and endangering and seeking to exterminate the Jewish people.
My fellow Atheists seem ok with Jews of Biblical times being endangered and terrorized and attacked on a daily basis.

And My fellow Atheists seem ok with the fact that the serving other gods meant and included committing acts that caused the diseases, plagues, viruses, infection, illness and sickness that wiped out thousands at a time.

The Bible places the Deuteronomy and Leviticus scriptures in this context, however, My fellow Atheist’s refuse and fail to show this context in the Quran. As the Scriptures details and explains the expectation of the god of the Bible and the expectation of the other gods and exactly why the Jews were not permitted to infect others with these diseases and murder and burn their children in fire and commit bestiality, incest, homosexuality and unclean unsanitary practices that were killing the servants of the other gods.

My fellow Atheists do not find any of this { the Deuteronomy and Leviticus } in the Quran. Yet as My fellow Atheists pretend to use the god of the Quran to destroy the god of the bible they only follow their own god that is the most self-destructive and ignorant deity that they can possibly image or conjure up while pretending it is fact and reality.

The Bible honestly laid out the facts of the realities of BLOOD CRIMES and diseases and plagues and the dangers of beastality, homosexuality and murder and torture of little children and violence against innocent and it simply declared this was the only LAW / GOD that was allowed to be served. All actions that broke these laws were equated to serving another god that always allowed this behavior. My fellow athiests here have shamed me and I wish they would stop spreading their ignorance.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
The Universal

The Universal

Boy you are some kind of special apologist. Inaccuracies, appeals to ignorance, appeals to authority, Wholesale generic accusations...all in one, tediously long and erratic post...*shakes head*,'

One could almost think you were a christian pretending to be an atheist just to stir up trouble. But nooo....that wouldn't be true would it?

Sushisnake 's picture
@Old Man

@Old Man

If you like that one, you'll love this one, old mate:

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 02:52

Permalink

the universal

"... The Bible is focused on family and upon the preservation and respect for children and i really respect that. As an atheist, I would not suggest or need prove that god does not exist by lying about the Bible, making all atheists look like complete foolish clowns."

It's in the thread about Islam co-existing peacefully.

I think our "Atheist" poster is a Christianity promoter.
I'll keep an eye out for zhim in the hub, the dishonest grub.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@the universal

@the universal

At the standard rate of 5 crackpot points per word in all caps; a quick skim of your last post seems to indicate about 80 crackpot points.

CyberLN's picture
The universal, I am NOT (and

The universal, I am NOT (and perhaps others will agree) one of your “fellow atheists”. Please do not speak to what I, as someone identified as atheist, thinks, says, what I might disregard, if I lie, what I pretend about, what I am ok with, or any fucking thing else.

Sushisnake 's picture
But wait, Cyber! There's more

But wait, Cyber! There's more about zhe's "fellow atheists" back on Thu, 05/10/2018 - 07:10 in this thread http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/help-need-send-5yr-old...

where the universal said

" As an atheist myself, I have sadly found that many of my fellow atheists are the reason that many little boys are molested. The majority of atheists in my community perpetuate the molestation of little boys."

We don't have rules about people calling us paedophiles, but we do have rules have rules against homophobic hate speech. Zhe goes on:

" The Atheist and Liberal Democrats seem to pretend to know and demand that a little Child can know if He is Transgender or Gay / homosexual at a very, very early age.

While the Atheist and Liberal Democrats pretend that sex act involving a man and a little boy is somehow suddenly not a homosexual act.

This shows how willingly ignorant, lazy demented, perverted and evil that even many atheists truly are, as they set up programs and laws to enact the realization and reality they imagine and fantasize and get off about little children having knowledge of their sexual preference and pre-knowledge about their gender and sexuality...

And homoseXual molestation is the most horrible experience that a child could experience when the CHILD IS NOT A HOMOSEXUAL. I have found that most atheists are no different than the Roman Catholic, Protestant or Islamic or any other religious individuals who allow this type of predator activity to continue. The saddest thing is that seems that many of my fellow atheists have their own form of religion."

I'm not sure how we all missed that post. It's probably because it was in an old zombie thread.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Sushisnake - I'm not sure how

Sushisnake - I'm not sure how we all missed that post.

Oh I didn't miss it; and I was disturbed by it.

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