cosmic consciousness

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Cognostic's picture
Tune in, Turn on, and of

Tune in, Turn on, and of course - drop out. An excuse not to get a university degree.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Fortunately I lived through

Fortunately I lived through the 50's and the sixties....but my memory of the 60's and 70's is shot to hell....but then ...I think it was great!

Grinseed's picture
I think it was Bowie who said

I think it was Bowie who said if you remember the 60s and 70s you weren't really there, at least I think it was someone called Bowie...I don't remember.

billy zarcone's picture
albert Einstein stated that

albert Einstein stated that the irony in the universe is that it is comprehensible, we as the average humans have finite minds so we are able to grasp God in our comprehension.Not totally but he grants us like mathematics and abstract principles as per Einstein. the ability to think through logic faculties about him. In short our minds that we can reason and think are great evidence for God. Also one post here stated to give an objective reason for gods existence, well we have minds we can think but yet the mind can`t be detected.Just like i know there is a God because i exist and reason and am made in his image.

LogicFTW's picture
@Billy zarcone

@Billy zarcone

Einstein quotes eh?

Try this one on:

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of his children for their numerous stupidities, for which only he himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only his nonexistence could excuse him."

Here is another:
"The meaning of the word "truth" varies according to whether we deal with a fact of experience, a mathematical proposition, or a scientific theory. 'Religious truth' conveys nothing clear to me at all."

Shall I go on? He has lots of stuff like that. Might want to pick someone else, perhaps a little less intelligent to be your fallacious appeal to authority on the subject.

 
 

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Grinseed's picture
@Alain,

@Alain,
Your English is fine, Alain. I am not good at learning other languages.

Do read up on deChardin. Interesting guy. The Catholic Church refused to let his books be printed until after he died in the fifties, because he continually challenged basic tenets, like declaring Adam and Eve to be mythological, which really messes up their explanation of why Jesus had to die. Twenty years in China after the war must have exposed him to some Buddhism I would think.

In general terms you are quite correct about qualifying statements without evidence. I am well aware of what you mean and I do actually do what you suggest with other subjects (history, science, art) but not theology, atheism or religion.

I make bold statements like 'There is no god.' on purpose. And bear in mind I am focussing here on monotheistic fundamental theists and religions.

A little personal history to clarify.
For the best part of nearly forty years I have been engaged in a continuing, punctuated discussion/debate/argument with an exclusive, prophetic, Old Testament, christian brethren cult who converted my brother and his family. Its been an off and on again situation.
This brethren prides itself on their particular interpretation of christianity. Studying them and discussing with them, I have learned quite a lot, but they do have some strange, even contradictory views, even for christians and they insist on questionable obedience from their members, that exceeds other religions.
It's not like your usual christian group living amongst the rest of the community. They are very exclusive and demand loyalty to the point of limiting contact with outside family members, and accepting appointed close personal pairings with other members and only allowing children to marry within the brethren.

I began questioning his initial association with them, but as the whole family was drawn to the brethren under the influence of his wife, she did not appreciate my interference. Some of my most intense arguments were with her.
Over time, the discussions and arguments extended to other brethren members and for some, I believe I was deliberately set up with increasingly knowledgeable debaters. Most times I never really felt like I had even scored a point due to their persistent intransigence.
There were times I felt my brother had been instructed to avoid me. Other times he just acted like a complete stranger rather than my older affable dopey brother. Other times he just seemed lost. I understand the brethren only referred to me as 'the brother" and never by my name.
I started to relent trying to dissuade him, it served no purpose and must only have made him uncomfortable. To be honest I haven't seen much of him since my wife passed away, but my concern for him remains.
There are several support groups for people who have left this brethren or who have lost family members to it. They aren't a nice bunch at all, really.

So, in disputes with that brethren and with some theists on AR and other atheist sites, I have cultivated a personal manner of discussing theology, which includes making unqualified bold statements.

Theists are immune to debate. They are more interested in conversion and proving their faith. God exists. God colours all information and interpretations. He cannot be denied. He also listens and judges the theist's argument. God does not like to be disappointed, so the theist never concedes any issue, even despite plain evidence to the contrary. Truth is not in the balance, their soul is, yours too. Evasive tactics are employed to discredit, disarm and discount any claims against their faith and can range from any number of fallacies to objections about 'context' and 'meaning' to plain outright lies (because its OK to lie for God, if you save souls as Eusebius wrote. It's also in the bible but for the moment I can't recall the source.)

And theists have kidnapped definitions. I have been ambushed for using words like 'belief', 'faith', even 'understanding' etc. If I say 'I believe in the scientific method', I am accused of having no less a faith than a christian and my support for science is no more than a mere belief. If I offer up evidence of a scientific theory I get served with the disparagement of the word "theory" ie, "well its only a theory, its not true." Tired, old, meaningless deflecting arguments that do nothing more than waste time. If I dare to question a bible reference, I am told I have failed to appreciate the 'context' or 'revealed wisdom expressed', despite the obvious meaning, ie god killed all the innocent first born children, human and animal, in Egypt, after he had hardened Pharaoh's heart himself.

So, I do not care to argue if someone else's god is theoretically real or not. I don't care if I trample like a barbarian over the standard rules of debate or niceness by not qualifying my statements. I was once a polite debater and obeyed the rules with the brethren and that failed to keep my brother from them.

When I say 'There is no god', I invoke the English language convention that what I claim is exactly what I believe. It is my personal conviction as much as it is the conviction of a theist to claim god exists without evidence.
I expect to draw criticism from fellow atheists who insist we can not say 'god does not exist'. They quibble that we can not prove it, but as atheists the burden of proof is still not ours to bear.
I will say it here, once, I believe he does not and theists still can't prove he does.

By the way, I have testified in court, before a judge. I offered my sworn and honest evidence as an eye witness and the judge in his summing up, openly discounted my testimony, on the basis of his personal evaluation of me, though we had never before met and he could not have had any information on me. I was wearing a suit and a short haircut and was clean shaven. I worked for a reputable financial institution. He was a prominent christian and a total arsehole. My innocent friend spent time in prison.

more to come....sorry for the length...but as the Irish say 'if the road were any shorter we'd never arrive'....

Tell me if you have had enough.

Alain's picture
We all experience how hard

We all experience how hard the life can be but the only way is to continue.
Continue in a way that we can deal with.
If I can not go straight I go around.
I also have one brother that is intransigent on his religious views so when I see him I avoid talking about these issues.

arakish's picture
***tree standing tall having

***tree standing tall having divided branches into two bunches and begins shaking them like a cheerleader***

Bravo! Bravo!

That was excellent Grinseed. I too make bold statements and do not give a damn if others refuse to except them. I also shall state "no god exists." And I do not care about the impossibility of absolute certainty.

No god exists. Never has. Never shall.

rmfr

Diotrephes's picture
Grinseed,

Grinseed,

"Evasive tactics are employed to discredit, disarm and discount any claims against their faith and can range from any number of fallacies to objections about 'context' and 'meaning' to plain outright lies (because its OK to lie for God, if you save souls as Eusebius wrote. It's also in the bible but for the moment I can't recall the source.)"

Try Job 13:7 (CEV) = "Are you telling lies for God"

Job 13:7-12 (MSG) = “"Listen now while I make my case, consider my side of things for a change. Or are you going to keep on lying ‘to do God a service’? to make up stories ‘to get him off the hook’? Why do you always take his side? Do you think he needs a lawyer to defend himself? How would you fare if you were in the dock? Your lies might convince a jury—but would they convince God? He’d reprimand you on the spot if he detected a bias in your witness. Doesn’t his splendor put you in awe? Aren’t you afraid to speak cheap lies before him? Your wise sayings are knickknack wisdom, good for nothing but gathering dust."

Grinseed's picture
Thank Dio, better make a copy

Thank Dio, better make a copy of that now, for laters.

Grinseed's picture
Just a quick single response

Just a quick single response here....

4) How can you say that free will is an illusion?
To get my money to live I work hard while some people make money by selling drugs.
If this is not free will what on earth it is?

In the study of sociobiology the notion of free will is dismantled by referencing influences and impacts of personal history, biologicial make up, social pressures, chemical imbalances, food intake, education and hundreds of other influences usually discounted by self centred individuals who insist 'no-one tells me what to do." I offer the subject to you to research and i even present this reference to a Stanford University Course in Sociobiology. I am only part way through it myself but it updates many things I have read elsewhere before.
Human Behavioural Biology

Have you considered the plight of young black youth in Washington DC who grew up in wildly disfunctional familes and came under the influence of street gangs who insisted on strict fidelity to the gang. I read specific reports in the 1990s on these gangs who would murder unco-operative members including kids as young as 10, dragooned into selling drugs for older members who at ages 14 and older were already 'known to the authorities'. You call that free will?

I have a good close friend, an older woman, who after being seduced and abducted by her teacher at age 14 had two daughters with him before she was 17. The bastard abandoned her when the authorities found him and his fake marriage certificate. Left without support and an unfinished education she had the choice of selling drugs, prostitution or taking up strip tease dancing to support her two infant daughters. She hated all three options but chose the dancing out of rigid moral considerations and she was very successful at what she did. She is an amazing person, strong, honest and insightful. Her daughters have had very productive honest lives. You think she had free will?

Your choice of example was not a good one.
more to come

Alain's picture
Obviously this physical

Obviously this physical science does not deal with reincarnation and atheists in general also do not believe in reincarnation so for them and for science the free will does not take in any consideration what happened in previous lives that could explain why some people born in a situation in which everything is easy and for somebody else is hard due to their right or wrong choices in previous lives that in this life affect them in the positive or negative.
If reincarnation would not exist then you would be correct but if it exist then I would be correct in saying that the free is a fact.
Now you tell me what cards you can put on the table to prove that reincarnation does not exist therefore the free will does not exist as well.
In the meantime I put down my cards and tell you what make me believe that it exist.
1) NDEs are facts and in these experience people often mention reincarnation and free will.
2) Individual evolution is also an other factor that make sense and this evolution require many many lives to turn a tiny consciousness into a big one such as a human consciousness.
Most atheists do not believe in reincarnation.
They reckon that we never born before but they can not give any explanation that make sense as far as where this evolved human consciousness come from.
In a way they are similar to many religious people that believe that the manna drop from the sky.

3) Free will in a way has got limitation in the sense that got to deal with universal justice.
If people could get away with the bad things that they may have done in previous lives or in this life then there would not be justice.
That doesn't make any sense.
Just imagine a mass murderer that doesn't have to pay for his previous crimes.
What justice would be that?
Of course for an atheist the issue does't apply because there is none to administer justice so the criminals get away with their crimes.
Again all this atheist philosophy doesn't make any sense.

LogicFTW's picture
@Alain

@Alain

Now you tell me what cards you can put on the table to prove that reincarnation does not exist therefore the free will does not exist as well.

We do not have to disprove a theory that has no real objective testable proof. If you do not understand that here is a quick example I use frequently:
You owe me 1 million dollars. Prove to me you do not. You can't. Why not? Because I made a claim with no proof, you can not disprove a claim made with no proof. Same thing with reincarnation.

1) NDEs are facts and in these experience people often mention reincarnation and free will.

Yes people do nearly die, and all sorts of craziness happens as the human brain begins to shut down from lack of blood/oxygen. And just like thoughts when not dying, thought when dying are just that thoughts, nothing real. While actually testing NDE's is really difficult (who wants to nearly die to test an unproven theory about nde's?) There has never been an objective test proving NDE's never has there been in controlled lab conditions, a: hey we are going to tape your eyes shut, and then hold up a sign to see if your "ghost/spirit/whatever" can read and then report back to the conscious mind what it read. Never. Not once.

2) Individual evolution is also an other factor that make sense and this evolution require many many lives to turn a tiny consciousness into a big one such as a human consciousness.
Most atheists do not believe in reincarnation. They reckon that we never born before but they can not give any explanation that make sense as far as where this evolved human consciousness come from.

Individual evolution?? Um what? How come me a regular on these boards that talk about this sort of stuff has never heard of this term? If this is in fact the bonafide real world finding of intense study why have I never heard of it? We have plenty of real world tested and well supported evidence showing how human evolution works and how each person benefits from evolution. A little thing called communication... teaching what we learned to those younger than us. Or even books that can exist long after we have passed away sharing our thoughts, teaching others so they do not have to re-learn it all for themselves.

In a way they are similar to many religious people that believe that the manna drop from the sky.

Uh no. we do not believe "manna" or knowledge drops from the sky, we understand we learn it from our peers. Are we really arguing this? This is basic, everyone knows we learn from our elders. Human knowledge evolves and continues on through communication.

3) Free will in a way has got limitation in the sense that got to deal with universal justice.

There is no universal justice, and it is dangerous to think there is. It is no way to operate to think all justice happens in the "afterlife" there is no proof for afterlife or justice, letting someone walk all over you just because well they will get justice in the afterlife is no way to operate, you will just be a doormat to those that take advantage of you for all of your one and only life that most certainly has zero proof of any sort of afterlife. Shake off the lie of religion, do not waste your one and only life to that crap.
 
 

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Alain's picture
1) In an NDEs people do not

1) In an NDEs people do not near die.
They die for real as established by doctors.
2) Once the heart stop sending blood-oxygen to the brain it only takes few second for the brain to stop functioning.
During these few second the consciousness which by the way leave the body-brain can not possibly build such a deep experience like an NDE.

All other questions I already answered in previous posts.

LogicFTW's picture
1. Do you know what NDE

1. Do you know what NDE stands for? "Near death experience." If they did actually die they would not be telling us about their supposed experience now would they? They do not "die for real" established by doctors. Maybe their heart stopped, maybe they were in very real mortal danger, but they did not "die." Or are you saying people get "resurrected" by god all the time? Maybe jesus is not so special...
2. The brain begins to shut down, it does not happen in a few seconds, it happens in minutes. You may lose consciousness fairly rapidly, but the brain does not shut down entirely it can still send the signal for the heart to pump, for the lungs to breath for several minutes. They have found a baby that fell in a mostly frozen lake and was not breathing for over an hour, the baby's brain did mostly shut down to protect it self, but they baby did survive and the brain began to function again (although damage was done.)
3. While a proper NDE study would be exceedingly difficult to find volunteers for, there has never been a proper NDE controlled experiment to test these various "NDE" scenarios. Nor is there a need to. The idea we have some sort of "ghost" spirit that can still see, hear and sense in general that leaves the body and is aware of surroundings, then, when the person "comes back to life" this ghost goes back and memory is formed, is a ludicrous idea, one that goes against every real world finding science has found about chemistry, physics, biology, quantum physics, etc etc etc. All stuff that has real testable evidence that the foundations we can test ourselves with our own eyes hands and senses.

NDE's as well as god concepts and ghost and souls is all story time stuff, just like visiting aliens from outer space, unicorns, yeti's etc.

 
 

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David Killens's picture
NDE's are not proven facts.

NDE's are not proven facts. At best they are anecdotal stories told by someone who had a vivid dream.

What is consciousness? It is just our own personal inner dialogue, the act of being self-aware.

Justice? Right now there are leaders in the Roman Catholic church who either participated or actively covered up child rape.

Curtis E. LeMay was the USAF general who ordered the firebombing of civilians in Tokyo during WW2. One quote that came from him was "I suppose that if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal". He was never prosecuted.

On On 24 January 1943 the commander of the USS Wahoo sank a transport. Once the ship sank he ordered his crew to shoot all the survivors in 20 lifeboats.

Justice? What justice?

Alain's picture
Sorry David but NDEs are

Sorry David but NDEs are proven facts.
Can you disprove a doctor that say that the chap is really dead or the fact that the person in question is real and had a real incident or problem or an existing hospital where the facts happened or witnesses that agree that the chap in question while dead could see from above what was happening to his body?
Of course you can not David that is why you should really see the evidence before you make such a silly statements.

David Killens's picture
@Alain

@Alain

"the chap in question while dead could see from above what was happening to his body?"

There ..right there, is a method to test if NDE's are valid. Just place a piece of paper with a number on it on top of a cabinet. If that person had an NDE, since they can see from above, IF they are resuscitated, they can tell what the number is.

There is a valid method of testing NDE's without invading the privacy of a dying person.

Guess what, zero proof.

LogicFTW's picture
@Alain

@Alain

Sorry David but NDEs are proven facts.

Proven? Woah where is the major world changing scientific finding that NDE's are proven facts? How come I never heard of this? And I read up on, debate and look into this stuff.

Oh because it is not. Not even close.

Can you disprove a doctor that say that the chap is really dead or the fact that the person in question is real and had a real incident or problem or an existing hospital where the facts happened or witnesses that agree that the chap in question while dead could see from above what was happening to his body?

This is what makes NDE's a favorite of apologist, they are non falsifiable. You can't "test it." However you must realize, in order for anyone to operate, people can and must dismiss non falsifiable ideas if they have no evidence for them. Real evidence.
You owe me 1 million dollars, prove to me you do not owe me 1 million dollars. You cant. Yet you know you do not owe me 1 million and you will never pay me based on my claim. This is the basic reasoning/logic you already have, same thing applies to NDE's. You can and you should dismiss NDE hogwash, just like you can and did dismiss my: you owe me 1 million dollars claim.

 
 

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billy zarcone's picture
Well I personally believe in

Well I personally believe in free will.Your friend had choices maybe not the most virtueous but they were hers to make.I chose to be a Christian no circumstance forced me to.I choose when to shower when to eat what job to have. What do you call this?So as far as i can see we have free will and freedom up to a particular limits that are placed on us. We all know that we can`t shout fire in a movie theatre it is not at all appropriate. So in a way where limited, But as far as I understand determinism it seems one is compelled to act and decide to act in a certain way made by brain chemistry, and inate desired and situational ethics.As for the street gangs they put a lid on a persons freedom in ordefr to be a member od standing in the gang. Those youth had a choice not to join the gangs, but they went ahead and did it any old way.Again freedom in action.So I don`t agree with your assesment of things regarding determinism and free will. You can now choose to respond.

LogicFTW's picture
But you did not really choose

But you did not really choose your religion, you were told of it by your parents and peers, and brought along to engage when you were a little kid and could not even think for yourself yet.

You will never know if you chose religion unless you had zero influence from religions until you were at least 18 and able to critically think for yourself.

Religion is a really effective con, especially among little kids when their parents already bought into the con.

 
 

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billy zarcone's picture
Yes, logic Even though I was

Yes, logic Even though I was baptized Catholic by my parents I later when I could think on my own willfully turned to the creator god. again when I was baptized I had no say in the matter I went where my parents took me, but when I Became a teen to my twenties I thought for my self. using my free will to choose to follow GOD.

LogicFTW's picture
How old were you baptized?

How old were you baptized?

Do you think you would still believe in the catholic god if you were born to a muslim family in a heavily muslim country/community? Why or why not?

Do you even consider the possibility your decision to follow god was colored by your past experiences, by who you were raised by and who your peers/family/friends are?

My mother was atheist, my father was not, I know a huge reason why I am atheist is because my mother was, and she shielded me from the worst of the brainwashing when I was young and unable to defend my self with critical thinking instead of the age where you are supposed to listen to what everyone else says, especially parents and "trusted elders."

 
 

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Grinseed's picture
Well thank allowing me to

Well thank allowing me to exercise my free will to respond, though I feel more compelled than permitted.

This is really for both you and Alain. I never did think theists had the monopoly on morality and now you display what I would hope is an unintentional lack of empathy.

Billy, Alain, read the stories again, read between the lines.

She was seduced by a much older man, a catholic teacher I will add, He lied to her. She was 14 years old, she didn't even know what sex was. In other words he was a paedophile and he abducted her. Her family did not see her for nearly three years, the police began searching. He promised her a great life as his wife and faked a marriage ceremony and a fake marriage certificate. In little over two years, when the cops caught him, he deserted her with two babies with no material support AND the general condemnation of the catholic church who attempted to take her girls away....and all you two can say is she had choices as if that makes everything her responsibility, her fault...then you Billy waffle on about your life choices, all primly cultured while you grew up in the comfort of the safe society you still take refuge in and dare not leave.

The black kids I referred to did not have choices...Billy - "In a way they were limited.." Not "in a way", they were not given any valid choices, crime or death, at least you got to choose between heaven and hell, big difference. Alain - "If I cant go through I go round" - "No! you get a bullet in the head." Go round that!

Their choice was join, commit crimes or die. And once the crime was committed they were blackmailed with time in dentention centres. What do you two not understand about that? The gang leaders, hardened criminals, carried out threats against powerless ignorant little boys. You are either unaware or naïve, or both.

The point is that things like this go on all over the world all of the time; Joseph Koney's Lord's Army; street gangs happen in every city in the world; the notorious razor gangs of Durban in the early 1900s were run by convicts in jail and rebels in the hills; today young girls are still forced into prostitution; young kids in poverty are driven into crime and you can read anything Charles Dickens wrote, somethings never change. And all the while pious self satisfied navel gazing, rosary bead counting theists gloss over the tragedy as if it were all down to a mirage of universal free will, a simple choice between evil and niceness and where real victims are branded morally inferior for not making the "right" selection.

The real tragedy here, Billy is that you have never had free will. You described your community, presumably, the one you grew up in, as peppered with catholic churches, full of catholic believers and clergy, with Mass on any day of the week, pleasant undisputed bible classes, and pre-organised orthodox prayer meetings.
So where exactly were the actual chances you had to decide if Islam or Judaism or Hinduism were not the true religion? Why do you think most people born in the Middle East are Muslim and reject Christianity and Judaism?
I was raised, without choice, in the Church of England, questioned it, and chose, despite the howls of heresy, by the power of free will, after fairly considerable comparisons, and at a young age, the Baptist faith, and later still, under threats of hell and damnation, chose to reject them all - that's choice, that's free will.

Billy you are as much a victim as those little black kids and what is sadder, you aren't even aware of it. You were thoroughly indoctrinated as a child, as the Catholic Church intended. The choice you made, as inviting and welcome it must have been, was already being decided back when you were a mere youngster, yearning to be an altar boy wearing the IHS. But your choice was nothing like what the little black boys had. Your choice was between heaven and hell, theirs was between crime and death.

Are you really sure your choice to take a shower was of your own free will or were you worried fellow parishioners and the priests might think ill of your personal hygiene if you didnt? You don't think their opinions might not have forced you to shower? You might think you shower out of consideration for their delicate senses, but does your concern for their judgement , "Ewww, Billy didn't shower. His standards might be dropping." suggest an impingement on your true free will? You never once thought "Hang it, I'll skip the shower! I choose to smell now."?

Alain, you have make the mistake of enlisting science to prove your faith when you really shouldn't have to. You already agreed that science is not meant to prove anything outside nature. You have simply taken words, labels and concepts from science, with scant regard for their agreed meaning, to conduct debates, but with your own contrived personal meanings and definitions in a bid to sound reasonable and informed but only to promote your belief. It just never works like that.

Your faith in spiritual things does not need science. You cannot prove god or the workings of the supernatural, and you certainly can't with the scientific method. Are you worried the Buddha didn't leave enough explanations or lessons? I don't recall Buddha talking about science, "If a test tube falls in the empty science lab does it make a sound when it smashes." I do recall his lessons avoided direct answers because meaning was to be found in the consideration of things rather than any concise explanation. So I wonder why you even want to employ science, the proven path to precise explanations, to "prove" your faith unless you actually accept that science does prove the truth of things. If your faith really works let it do so, and let others discover that, without contrived and faulty misappropriation of natural knowledge. If you try to prove your faith with inaccurate science you will ultimately do your faith a severe disservice.

And be nice to me, the two of you, I am 65 years old, deaf, bereft of pals, all of who I outlived, and I still work full time out of necessity...nahh, just kidding, you can be as nasty as you like, I don't care.

Tin-Man's picture
@Grinseed

@Grinseed

*standing on top of table hooting, hollering, and clapping loudly*...... Bravo!... Bravo!....

Cognostic's picture
ALAIN:

ALAIN:
"Obviously this physical science does not deal with reincarnation." "WRONG" Null Hypothesis. There are no claims made by reincarnation believers that can be confirmed by science. All science says is "UNCONFIRMED." This is all science ever says about hypothesis.

If you assert there was a previous life - you must prove it. WAITING!

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF: "Now you tell me what cards you can put on the table to prove that reincarnation does not exist therefore the free will does not exist as well."

Your stupid theory is not true by virtue of the fact that no one can prove it is not true. THAT IS NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS. You must prove it is true before you can be taken seriously. You can not prove Blue Universe Creating Bunnies did not create the universe. (They are invisible, non-corporal, omniscient, and live beyond time and space but have powers to interact with us on a personal level.) Just like the idiocy of reincarnation, saying it does not make it so.

NDE: NDEs are facts and in these experience people often mention reincarnation and free will.
Yes, NDEs are facts and people say all sorts of stupid shit about them. So what. The shit people say is not fact. Buddhists have Buddhist experiences. Muslims have Muslim experiences. etc..... Several things take place during an NDE. 1. The brain is starved of oxygen. 2. Sleep paralysis 3. Phantom Limb Projection. All of these are well understood by science. No evidence what so ever supports the claims people make regarding reported events they experience during an NDE. NONE>

EVOLUTION REQUIRES MANY LIVES: Bullshit. Already discussed in reincarnation. Prove it.

UNIVERSAL JUSTICE: roflmao - PROVE IT. No such thing exists until you can produce evidence.

All you are doing is making inane assertions about unfalsifiable convictions and then telling people to disprove your delusions. Frankly speaking, if you believe half the crap you are saying, you are probably in need of psychological assistance.

Alain's picture
1) The reason why Christians

1) The reason why Christians see Jesus and other people see a different person or figures or see a light is very very simple Cogno.
God does not force anyone to believe in this or that teacher.
Anyone is let to believe what they like or even believe in nothing so during their NDE these people will see whatever they believe in during their lives or a figure made of light.
In any case what is important in a NDE is not what appear in front of your consciousness but what is taught to you.

2) You say.............EVOLUTION REQUIRES MANY LIVES: Bullshit.

Life teach us the opposite.
As a small child can not possibly become a doctor in a year of school also a small consciousness can not become a big consciousness in a life time.
This is science at his best Cogno.

All the rest I already answered in my previous post to Grin.

Cheers

Grinseed's picture
My, my, who has been

My, my, who has been disturbing the hornet's nest?

OK well it was perhaps a little ambitious for me to answer all ten original questions Alain posed, at the beginning of a work week and with little time to spare.
Its good you AR heathens contributed and so shortened the event. As it is I whole heartedly agree with the points you all made.

But I think I might just summarise my thoughts on Alain's claims.

Alain,
have you noticed I have not asked you to provide evidence for your stated position?

Not only that but I have not even challenged you to disprove that rocks are inert. It's foolish to demand evidence of anyone to disprove something they do not have reason to believe.

Truth is a near impossible thing to pin down. Its not as tangible as we like to think and changes over time in small discrete ways. I am cynical of claims of absolute truth and constantly reconsider everything I think is true. I have long lost the habit of beleiving dogma or the word of people, even those I respect. Everyone has the opportunity to be plain wrong.

The purpose of the scientific method is not to disprove god. Its purpose is to describe what and how things happen in this material world according to consistent and repeatable experiment. Nothing more.
Its real power is the amount of information we have garnered particularly over the past three hundred years. What we have learned and achieved is nothing less than staggering and a long the way we have learned so much more of who, what and how we are and why we think and believe and imagine ourselves to be. That intellectual evolution is available for everyone who can read listen and think, not just for the individual contemplating his navel and striving to make imagings real.

Conciousness can be measured, its not a spiritual concept. Encephalography, electronically monitering and measuring and recording brain activity under different stimuli, has been in use since 1875. It has been a major tool in diagnosing and healing mental health issues.

Matter is inert, rocks and pebbles are not conscious. Uranium, an unstable element, isn't waiting to express hidden consciousness, Right now, it constantly emits radioactivity and does so in terms of half-lifes measured in thousands and hundreds of thousands of years.

Your understanding of science is pretty poor. I doubt you have read any recently published books on any scientific subject and maybe only a few scattered Google articles at best.
There simply can never be "a different type of science" and certainly not just to accomodate your quaint desire to claim consciousness as a purely spiritual quality.

Read this book at least, its not hard to understand and I guarantee it will give you a clearer understanding about mankind. Its a free book to download. If you are honestly interested in truth you will read it and if you think you already possess truth then reading it cant change your opinion, but at least it will give you an idea of what I and others here at AR understand to be the truth about life on earth.

Becoming Human

The science of Evolution has already shown who and what we are and has proven our very special and unique connection with every other living creature on earth. I did highlight that in mentioning the Hox genes, but maybe you just missed it.

Not only do I not believe in reincarnation, the Buddhist version is one I find horrendous. Judging people in this life on the basis of assumed moral behaviour in a totally imagined "previous life" is the worst example of blind justice and judgement in a religion I have ever come across.

If you die young, you are remembered as a murderer in a previous life. If you are ugly, you treated others despicably and so deserve your looks. If you are poor, its not to do with economic circumstances, you were just a greedy and dishonest crook in your last life. The Catholic Church must be insanely jealous for missing this particular method of condemning people but at least they had the good taste to only declare us all rotten to the core once, at birth, and not repeatedly before then. And then ironically you talk of Justice. Maybe someone just died young, because he/she contracted liver cancer, the poor bugger.

NDEs are just that, no-one dies. Their bodies suffer extreme stresses, and you would take their word as rational explanations for their experience? And not everyone has the same experience. Not everyone 'sees themselves from above" or senses a light from heaven or sees long dead relatives. It's an extreme medical event, not a spiritual experience. Its been noted that Muslims don't have 'religious NDEs, perhaps because they are not permitted portraits or cute little statues of Mohammed.

I covered the illusion of free will. I suppose my Stanford lecture reference was wasted.

OK, well I am done here. Believe what you want Alain but dont distort reality just to accomodate cherished views, challenge them, keep questioning and dont reject any answer just because you dont like it, keep revising.

Cheers.

And Arakish worries he is too wordy, lol.

Alain's picture
1) I would be very very

1) I would be very very cautious before I say that we know what consciousness is all about.
Science (physical science) can in a way understand a little bit about the physical aspect of consciousness but that is all.
Consciousness is not something physical but science can in a way measure certain reaction of this abstract entity so we can say that science can in a way measure these physical reaction but that's it.
As far as understanding the non physical aspect science is still well away from it.
There is a far better way to understand consciousness and that is yoga.
Yoga for thousand years knows that the pineal gland is the seat of consciousness and it is here that the work goes in order to penetrate in this abstract entity but this is something that will become more and more clear to all as their awareness is not longer satisfied with the finite.

2) You talk about uranium but you do not explain why uranium release energy while most other minerals do not.

3) There is indeed a different type of science that deal with what is not physical.
Consciousness is not something physical so to understand this issue we need a non physical science which in yoga is called intuitional science.

4) The science of Evolution has NOT already shown who and what we are.
We are not the body as a driver is not the car therefore this science has only showed the physical aspect which means very little indeed.

5) You say..................Not only do I not believe in reincarnation, the Buddhist version is one I find horrendous. Judging people in this life on the basis of assumed moral behaviour in a totally imagined "previous life" is the worst example of blind justice and judgement in a religion I have ever come across........................

Is not my job to judge and condemn anybody.
My job is to help anyone in need regardless of what they did.
I leave the job to administer justice to the best judge there is around anywhere.
The fact that I do believe in karma has absolutely nothing to do with judge anybody.

6) In NDEs people really die and that has been proven time and time again.
If you say the opposite then you say that the doctors are a bunch of idiots that do not know whether the chap is alive or dead.
As far as the Muslim experiences you are wrong once again.
If you go through the NDEs in the site that I already shown you you will find some of these experiences.
They are not many for obvious reason which is that if you talk to a different spiritual experience in a Muslim country you may well end up in big trouble.

7) You say.............dont distort reality .................
That is interesting especially when this suggestion come from someone who believe that we are the body. lol

Have a lovely day brother

LogicFTW's picture
All minerals release energy

@Alain

All minerals release energy when split apart, it just so happens a certain type of uranium can be refined a whole lot to be very very unstable and release that energy relatively easy compared to other "minerals." (You really mean elements.)

Physical aspect matters a lot, if I deliver a strong blow to your head, all of your non physical aspects such as thought come to an end until you wake up.

My job is to help anyone in need regardless of what they did.

If I stole all your worldly possessions would you still help me?

If you say the opposite then you say that the doctors are a bunch of idiots that do not know whether the chap is alive or dead.

What is dead? When the heart stops beating? When brain cells die due to lack of oxygen and nutrients? How dead is a dead brain? 10% 50%? How do they check this? Have doctors gotten better at determining death in the last 1000 years?

 
 

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