First off, I've never dated before. I'm 26 years old, and I'm trying to finally find my first date (which doesn't seem likely for many reasons). I've been thinking lately that I should date Christian women as opposed to atheist women. What I'm about to say might seem offensive to some, but try to understand my perspective here. In many ways I think Christian women are more the dating/marrying type. I think they have more solid values/moral regarding relationships, and I think a Christian woman would ultimately make a better partner. Not saying atheist women are bad, but I couldn't seem to get past questioning the morality of women who are willing to call themselves atheists. To me, this raises a lot of questions regarding their values and their loyalty. I'm not sure why it does. I might be completely wrong. But something about dating atheist women brings up questions and red flags for me. Keep in mind that I'm not likely to get a girlfriend anyway, so all talk here is just speculation and provisional.
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
SoM, you said, " To me, this raises a lot of questions regarding their values and their loyalty. I'm not sure why it does. I might be completely wrong."
You are completely wrong.
@Sea of Madness: "'I've never dated before."
Then stop stereotyping women. Stop choosing by categories. Choosing a woman (and more importantly being chosen by one) involves factors that are far more subtle and profound than politics or religion. Women are individual human beings. Talk to them. Listen to them.
And anyway, why would you think that people who believe (or pretend to believe) the biggest lie in human history would be any more moral than those who honestly reject that lie?
Algebe: “ the biggest lie in human history”
Sounds like a good title for the Ark Encounter if it goes bankrupt.
@Algebe: "And anyway, why would you think that people who believe (or pretend to believe) the biggest lie in human history would be any more moral than those who honestly reject that lie?"
Because at this point I don't think many people are thoughtful atheists yet. I think it's too early in human history for most people to be atheists for the right reasons. I think most people you meet who identify as atheists are so because they think its rebellious or cool. Just because I manage to be a well-informed atheist with secular-humanist values doesn't mean every other atheist I meet will be. In fact, I don't imagine many of them are. I think I'm much more likely to find a kind, moral, faithful Christian woman with strong moral values than an atheist woman of the same moral standard. I imagine most atheist women around me will either be the promiscuous or partying type that I just can't handle. I don't think they'll have the same tendencies to be faithful to me or more family-oriented. Either this or they'll be sooper dooper liberal, vegan, feminist, etc. which I cannot tolerate for two seconds. Christian women, particularly southern Christian women, have a tendency to hold more faithful values, and they also have a tendency to be prettier and more feminine to satisfy their man. I know what I just said lowered some your jaws and raised some of your eyebrows, but this is my position. Whether I like it or not, I'm still very much stuck in my southern Christian mannerisms and traditions. I think a Christian woman is what I want. But I think my atheism will be a non-starter. I don't really mind pretending and hiding my nonbelief. Heck, I don't even mind going to church if its the right one. I love church. Best case scenario is I find an a-religious woman who is unconcerned with the topic of religion altogether, but was raised in Christian tradition like myself and holds those same values.
Looking for someone who will sleep with him, but who isn't "promiscuous". Might explain how you can get to 26 without having a date. Might want to lower your expectations just a wee bit.
You stated "I imagine most atheist women around me will either be the promiscuous or partying type that I just can't handle."
You must be obtuse here, I knew of more affairs and scandals within the church and its women followers than anything outside of the church. imagine a menagerie within sacred walls, yep, that best describes it!
26 and never had a date. Awesome
@MCD: "26 and never had a date. Awesome"
If you saw how ugly I am, you'd know why. That's why I said in my OP that I'm not likely to get a girlfriend anyway.
@Sea of Madness: "If you saw how ugly I am, you'd know why."
LOL. We're all ugly ,SOM. I don't know why women like us. I think they have other criteria for men than a pretty face. When I asked my wife what she saw in me, she said she liked my handwriting.
Hi there Sea of madness,
You are your own person, good :-)
you think for yourself, ethics is important to you :-)
lol you're honest and cool.
I like how you think, there will be other women out there who like how you think too! I can see your intention seems allright. Hmm, the only slightly misinformed thing, if its okay for me to say, is you presuppose that boring, simple-life loving atheist women don't even exist, we do (I exist!)
I am my own person.
I can relate to a lot of what you're thinking about, well I used to think similarly, but I'm a little older so my views have evolved, as yours will in your own way...
Not all atheist women are open about our atheism. I left religion for ethical reasons actually, so in my case for example, your
women + atheist/?ethical argument doesn't really wash. I'm actually very careful about looking for a respectful, kind, etc guy.
I was put off atheism for the similar reasons you described thinking atheists lack principles.
For me it took meeting two wonderful, much elder, mentors, who I really respect as people, eventually revealing in conversation about their atheism which quietly challenged my perception on atheisism. Eventually, in my heart I accepted I'm agnostic-Atheist (no solid proof for the assertion of a supernatural supreme being/s)
In the end what matters the most, and I'm confident you will agree, is how we relate to one another. Especially the courage, the courage to be there (for others) and how we define ourselves.
Not all atheist women are super-duper louder than life, out-there stereo type :-)
we're all (guys n girls) getting our shit together.
Anyway, I hope you are totally wrong, in that you do date a beautifully feminine, lovely southern woman who is compatible with you.
Even atheists can "pray" or "have positive thoughts" however you wanna look at it, so that would be my sincere wish.
Best regards.
@Sea of Madness
You said "In many ways I think Christian women are more the dating/marrying type. I think they have more solid values/moral regarding relationships, and I think a Christian woman would ultimately make a better partner. "
Now I can see why you haven't dated before.
Of course, you are completely wrong.
@mykcob4: "Now I can see why you haven't dated before.
Of course, you are completely wrong."
Well, maybe you're right. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that's not why I haven't dated. It's most likely because of my looks. I'd post a pic so you could see for yourself, but the cyber security part of me tells me not to.
But I don't think I'm wrong. I can't imagine an atheist woman near me being anything close to a Christian woman in terms of their values, their feminine beauty,and their desire to be faithful and devoted. For a woman near me to identify as atheist, there almost HAS to be some other requisite traits involved. She's probably butch, or she's, how do I say it, a freaky kind of person, perhaps a lesbian (nothing against lesbians but I'm not trying to date one), or she's anything other than the sweet, pretty, homey, southern woman I'm after. You're just not going to find an atheist woman like that. Or at least it would be like looking for a needle in the Milky Way Galaxy. I could be wrong.
Wait, your atheist right? Isnt this a contradiction of terms considering you find the only appropriate mate is a "faithful christian woman" you judge more than any christian rule book I bothered myself with. In certainty here, I am not butch, partying type, immoral, insensitive, bitter, lesbian, or any other adjective you want to throw out there....and wait again...I am an athiest. So as I understand it, women with opinions are not your cup of secular tea?
No, it's not that at all. It's just that for the most part where I'm from it seems that the further one deviates from being a professing Christian, the more up in the air and unpredictable their views, values, and behavior are. When it comes to the "normal" Christian types I'm used to however, I know generally how they are, and I find it much easier to get on with these types of people. Most people who would profess themselves as atheists I think are vastly different and unfamiliar to me. I was one of the few who was able to do it without changing much. It's like the difference in country people and city people. The lifestyles and sensibilities between the two types are just different and irreconcilable for some.I don't know how else to explain it. This is just what I think. I don't have atheist friends because I just don't think I'd like most atheists. I don't think most people can "atheist well". I don't think I can stand most atheists just like I don't think I can stand most heavy metal fans, but I have one central belief in common with both.
Sea of Madness
Why do you bash on Atheist women? Do you think a christian woman would be better than an Atheist woman? You will never know if an Atheist woman is bad to date unless you try. Dating a christian woman might might be just as bad to date as you think an Atheist would be.
@xenoview: Why do you bash on Atheist women? Do you think a christian woman would be better than an Atheist woman? You will never know if an Atheist woman is bad to date unless you try. Dating a christian woman might might be just as bad to date as you think an Atheist would be
I'm not bashing atheist women. I'm just trying to make the point that I don't think atheist women (or atheists in general would be my type). The main reason is that I'm not your typical atheist. I didn't become all liberal and a social critic when I became atheist. I simply stopped believing in God when I heard good arguments against it's existence. But my personality didn't really change much. I'm still the same ole country boy, and my values didn't really change (well, they did and they didn't). I'm kind of a special case, but I don't think my special case maps on to how the rest of the world is.
I also don't think there are many mature atheists out there yet. I don't think our culture has progressed enough yet for most atheists to really understand what it means and why they're atheist. And where I live, in order to get yourself to the point of identifying as atheist, there almost HAS to be other requisite traits that go along with it. Traits that fall outside of the type of person I'm used to and that I can tolerate easily. I can't imagine there being a woman around here who would identify as atheist who possess the qualities that I'm used to and that I'm attracted to. Like I said, I was able to stay normal and still be the same old guy I always was even after atheism, but I highly doubt that's so for most people.
I can liken it to this: I'm a huge fan of heavy metal music. But for me, its just what I like to listen to in the privacy of my home/car. But metal music doesn't make me want to grow long hair, dress in black, pierce and tattoo my body, and be all edgy like that. I still dress and act like a typical country dude. But this is not so for many metal fans. I'm able to like metal in the privacy of my own mind, and not let it change me into the type of person I'm not used to being/knowing. I probably would not like many hardcore metal fans for this reason. They just wouldn't be the type of person I'm used to, and would fall outside the type of person I could tolerate.
It's not a perfect analogy, but I used it to try to help you understand my position. I hope it makes sense.
To be or not to be is the question you need ask yourself!
@Algebe: "LOL. We're all ugly ,SOM. I don't know why women like us. I think they have other criteria for men than a pretty face. When I asked my wife what she saw in me, she said she liked my handwriting."
Algebe please. Don't start this line of argumentation. I have body deformities and an extremely fucked up appearance (bodily and facial). It just gets fucking annoying when people won't give this shit up claiming that all of our flaws are on equal footing. They're not man, just believe me. Mine are far worse. And it's not true that men are all ugly. It is easy to see why many men are attractive to women. Just please don't start with that. Please.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Sea of Madness: "It just gets fucking annoying"
Right. So you come here flaunting your problems, and when people try to help or advise you, you say we're "fucking annoying." Well I don't have a clue what you look like, so I was speaking in good faith. And I don't know what you want, so up yours, matey.
In fact, xenoview, I'll add to the whole heavy metal analogy by saying that I used to want to be a rock star when I was younger. I idolized all the old rock bands and wanted to live that lifestyle (or at least thought I did). Then I went out and started trying to find bandmates and form bands, and the whole scene was just too much for me. I found that I absolutely hated the whole world of music, and I fucking hated musicians and partying and all the stupid bullshit. I like music, and I like to play, but I can't tolerate musicians, and I don't like to play with others and perform, and I don't really like that whole scene. It just isn't for me. But find me another musician who is like this. You'll have a hard time finding one. That's what I'm saying about atheists and atheist women. I agree on the central premise that there is likely no God, but I don't really align with most other atheists otherwise. I find that the Christian world is much more normal and familiar to me.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Algebe, I didn't mean to say that you guys were being annoying. I was referring to the endless euphemisms people tend to feed me about my appearance. I'd rather just accept things for what they are. I'm a hopelessly ugly bastard. I was just shutting you down before you went down that path. You're not annoying man.
I am going to take a different tact here.
While yes, I agree stereotyping all women of a particular faith is never a good idea, and I agree with everyone that posted a response so far for the most part...
It sounds a bit like you want a slave for a wife, (girlfriend first while you check to make sure she is right for you.)
Are you rich or have decent income/job? Mail order brides are a thing. While she may, (probably?) leave you once she is granted citizenship that no longer requires marriage, you can always order another one. meanwhile they are mostly your slave and will be quite loyal up to that point and wont care too much about your appearance/personality.
You can fake it and join certain muslim communities, women are pretty much slaves in some, and super loyal in some muslim communities.
While I certainly do not condone these sort of things and feel women deserve total equality with men, there are lots of women out there that take part in these sort of things knowing exactly what they are getting into on the mail order bride thing. Or they and their family are so blinded by their faith...It wont be love, but it will give a form of loyalty through deceit or deal.
OR! you can be a decent human being even if you do not feel like the most handsome man in the world, you can find plenty of women that can be very loyal to a nice kind man, why? Because the woman would love you for your personality and other traits if not appearance. That you respect them and are their partner in life and they know they can count on you. True love and a strong relationship by default will create incredible loyalty.
None of this makes any sense to me. Where do you get the idea I want a slave? I don't think I indicated that.
"finally find my first date (which doesn't seem likely for many reasons)."
-You state you have not had girlfriend nor that it is likely you will get one. So this gf/wife will have to be accepting of a mostly unwanted man so far.
"more the dating/marrying type"
-You want a girl to date and marry. Sounds rather possessive and the marriage tradition has a long history of men owning women in many cultures. Obviously not nearly as true today in the us. But it is worth mentioning. Also listing a requirement.
"have more solid values/moral regarding relationships"
-And what values are those? You imply traditional in your discussion. A traditional values woman like back before woman's rights movement? More requirements.
"Christian woman would ultimately make a better partner."
-You add yet another condition/requirement. Also christian women are frequently more obedient and loyal (divorce is frowned upon)
"Christian women, particularly southern Christian women, have a tendency to hold more faithful values, and they also have a tendency to be prettier and more feminine to satisfy their man. "
-You are getting real obvious here, faithful, prettier, more feminine wants to satisfy their man more.
"questions regarding their values and their loyalty."
Loyalty, People like to talk about how loyal their dogs are. Loyal how? Wont leave you? Wont question you? Let you be the "man" of the house (aka unquestioned king?)
"people to be atheists for the right reasons."
- You want women to be a certain way, and not what you perceive as the atheist way. Atheist women tend to think for themselves and be more independent, instead of accepting lies without questioning them You imply you do not want that.
"If you saw how ugly I am, you'd know why. That's why I said in my OP that I'm not likely to get a girlfriend anyway."
-You demand a lot of a girl friend, but they also must accept that you are "ugly" and that you agree that you think you are "ugly"
"close to a Christian woman in terms of their values, their feminine beauty,and their desire to be faithful and devoted."
feminine beauty demand, and faithful devoted demand, faithful and devoted why? Cant they just like to be around you for you?
(atheist are) "She's probably butch, or she's, how do I say it, a freaky kind of person, perhaps a lesbian (nothing against lesbians but I'm not trying to date one), or she's anything other than the sweet, pretty, homey, southern woman I'm after. "
-you badly stereotype a bunch of atheist women, and you demand again your woman must be sweet pretty, homey, and act southern.
"qualities that I'm used to and that I'm attracted to."
-a woman must fit your idea of attractive both in manner and appearance
" I have body deformities and an extremely fucked up appearance (bodily and facial)."
- you are stating you have nothing to offer in terms of physical attractiveness for this gf/wife
" I can't tolerate musicians,"
-another requirement, stereotyping
" I find that the Christian world is much more normal and familiar to me."
-you want a certain type of girl that feels familiar to you.
" I'm a hopelessly ugly bastard."
-you re-emphasize that a woman will have to accept you are not pleasant to look at and has to accept you have a very negative opinion of your own physical appearance. (Who wants to always be around a person that emphasizes all the time that they feel they are ugly?
------------
------------
Perhaps even more can be surmised by what you do not mention:
You never mention love, as a requirement from her, or that you will offer it. Perhaps you could say that was a given, but you do not mention it once, when many people open with that if it is important to them.
Infact I did not see you say anything that you will offer to the women that meets your extensive criteria list. other than perhaps that you will offer them marriage. (which sounds will be much more advantageous to you then to them.)
You don't mention respect, common interests, (other then southern traditionalist christian girl values?) But even then you are an atheist and she would not be.
Lets recap:
You want a pretty, feminine, (definitely not butch,) traditional southern Christian girl that is good at "pleasing" their man, values loyalty, and believes strongly in marriage. That is not a musician and is okay with dating/marrying a guy who emphasizes that he thinks he is ugly based on what others told him. Lots of people also describe this kind of woman (based on your description so far) as a home maker that stays at home/kitchen all day that never demands anything from their husband as long as he brings home a paycheck and basic safety, but loyalty if the husband loses his job.
You offer: marriage, you don't mention love, or kindness or mutual interest, respect or support or even the same world belief.
Sounds an awful like you want a slave, you just don't want to admit that, because it sounds bad.
Fortunately, I think you are right, you are unlikely to find a gf and especially a wife. But not because you are "ugly." Attractiveness/handsomeness is only 1 thing of a long list of things a man can offer a woman, if you changed your attitude and offered more to a woman, like love and respect and dialed down your extensive requirement list, you absolutely could get a gf and maybe even a wife.
Hence my previous post, how you can get a GF/wife that fits almost all your requirements while offering so little in return.
LogicForTW, this whole thing made me laugh quite a bit. lol
I am glad you find humour in it. I certainly would take it different if I had this sort of thing pointed out about myself.
And apparently you do not refute my point that you are really looking for a pretty female slave that will act the way you want her to when you offer nothing in return other than "marriage."
It's funny because its preposterous. Every person wants loyalty and faithfulness in their partner (unless its an open relationship of course). My criteria is more of a stab at myself actually. I don't think I can handle an edgy atheist woman. I need a sweet Christian girl who will be boring and normal with me.
From your own comments in this thread you want a whole lot more than that. While offering nothing in return but marriage. A traditional christian type marriage of a south christian traditional type. where the woman is faithful, and loyal and never questioning. Not an independent and strong woman that stands up for herself. But the type of woman that will never challenge that you are the man of the house and you make the rules.
AKA a slave just said more nicely, (traditionally?) as "wife."
You purposely leverage religions effect that works to make woman less than in its tradition, even though you know religion is a pile of shit.
But hey, millions of christian women voted for "grab em by the pussy" trump for president, instead of the first major party female nominee ever. You just might find your christian slave, err.. I mean wife. Go for the evangelical ones, they seem particularly subservient.
LogicForTW, it was funny for a couple rounds, but now its getting annoying. I don't really care for your accusations (which are so wrong they're hysterical). I've tried to play it off nice by just laughing and treating it like a joke. But you just keep retorting with even stronger versions of the accusations. Now I'm just going to say.....shut the fuck up.
By the way, when did you stop beating your wife, LogicForTW? I know you usually keep her subjugated and you beat her to a pulp every time she steps out of line. I'd like to know when you stopped doing this.
So instead of explaining why I am: "so wrong it is hysterical" you first laugh it off, then just say I am wrong.. Now you are to the point of telling me to: "shut the fuck up." And accuse me of "beating my wife."
You asked why I offered up mail order brides or the more extreme traditional muslim women would work for you, I responded by pointing out your own comments on this thread why I came to that conclusion. Just my opinion based on what you said so far. I don't know you and you do not know me.
Why does this bother you so much, if it is: "so wrong it is hysterical" why do you care what some random anon on the net thinks? And if you do care, your solution is to tell me to: shut the fuck up? And then try to attack me? Does that ever work for you when someone says something you do not like?
You are also welcome to stop responding to me when ever you like if this conversation bothers you so much.
Pages