Disciples weren't lying because they were tortured

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JB God's Country's picture
You're coming from the

You're coming from the perspective that the bible is fact. I don't share that perspective so this may be a fruitless conversation.

UnKnown's picture
One of the biggest ideas of

One of the biggest ideas of this site is to debate, hence "Debate an Atheist". To debate means that people come to debate different perspectives to talk about ideas. So just because we have different perspectives doesn't mean we shouldn't have a conversation, quite the contrary!

JB God's Country's picture
Unkown,

Unkown,

What kind of research are you doing exactly? What is the ultimate objective of your questions?

UnKnown's picture
I have been surrounded by

I have been surrounded by Christianity my whole life. My only experience with atheists is one or three friends and atheist websites and their arguments. I just want to grasp different opinions from different people.

Greensnake's picture
Unknown:

Unknown:

Serious scholars have long ago figured out that the Gospels are not historical narratives. No answer is necessary since we are not dealing with bits of preserved history, much less eyewitness accounts.

CyberLN's picture
First, provide evidence that

First, provide evidence that these disciples actually existed. Second, if you can do that, then provide evidence they wrote the stuff in your holy book for which they are given credit. Third, if you manage to accomplish the first two items, provide evidence of this torture.

In other words, unknown, your OP is built on the sand of assumption and is simply falling down. You want discussion? Bring something sturdier to the table.

UnKnown's picture
Proof of authorship, thus

Proof of authorship, thus existance
1. "Irenaeus (ca. a.d. 180) continued Papias’s views about Matthew and Mark and added his belief that Luke, the follower of Paul, put down in a book the gospel preached by that apostle, and that John, the Beloved Disciple, published his Gospel while residing in Asia". This is evidence that, not only they apostles existed, but that they wrote the gospels.
2. Two friends of the apostle John confirm the internal evidence from John’s accounts. The historian Eusebius preserves writings of Papias, bishop of Hierapolis (AD 130). [6 p. 54]. "The Elder [apostle John] used to say this also: “Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he [Peter] mentioned, whether sayings or doings of Christ, not however, in order. For he was neither a hearer nor a companion of the Lord; but afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter … So then Mark made no mistake … for he paid attention to this one thing, not to omit anything that he had heard, nor to include any false statements among them."
3. Iraneus, Bishop of Lyons in AD 180, who was a student of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna (who had been a Christian for eighty-six years and was a disciple of John the Apostle), wrote [6 p. 54]

Matthew published his gospel among the Hebrews [i.e. Jews] in their own tongue, when Peter and Paul were preaching the gospel in Rome and founding the church there. After their departure [i.e. death, which strong tradition places at the time of the Neronian persecution in 64], Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself handed down to us in writing the substance of Peter’s preaching. Luke, the follower of Paul, set down in a book the gospel preached by his teacher. Then John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned on His breast [this is a reference to John 13:15 and 21:20], himself produced his gospel, while he was living at Ephesus in Asia.

Persecution included that of:
1. Ignatius (AD 70-110). He was Bishop of Antioch and was martyred for his faith in Christ. He knew all the apostles and was a disciple of Polycarp. Ignatius is said to have been thrown to the lions in the colosseum at Rome. He had ample material and witnesses to discover scriptural trustworthiness, and the fact that he was prepared to die for his faith, supports the reliability of the Scripture (the New Testament documents) on which his faith rested. (A Ready Defense, Josh McDowell, Here's Life Publishing, Inc., San Bernardino, CA 92402 page 437) (Evidence That Demands A Verdict Volume 1, Josh McDowell, Here's Life Publishing, Inc., San Bernardino, CA 92402 page 51)
2. Polycarp (AD 70-156) was a disciple of John and was martyred at 86 years of age because of his relentless devotion to Jesus Christ and the Scriptures. He was burned at the stake. His death demonstrated his trust in the accuracy of the Scripture as he certainly had ample contacts to know the truth. (A Ready Defense, Josh McDowell, Here's Life Publishing, Inc., San Bernardino, CA 92402 page 437) (Evidence That Demands A Verdict Volume 1, Josh McDowell, Here's Life Publishing, Inc., San Bernardino, CA 92402 page 51)
3. I cannot find any sources explicit to that of individual apostles death. But there was Roman persecution and the exact time of Paul and Peter in the Roman empire, especially with Nero. You may no believe that they were martyrs, but you cannot deny that there was persecution during 1st century, and the threat that these people faced.

Nyarlathotep's picture
UnKnown - This is evidence

UnKnown - This is evidence that, not only they apostles existed, but that they wrote the gospels.

Right there is where I stopped taking you seriously:


Wikipedia - According to the majority viewpoint, [Matthew] is unlikely to have been written by an eyewitness.


Wikipedia - Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.


Wikipedia - The most probable date for [Gospel of Luke's] composition is around 80–100 AD, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.


Wikipedia - In the majority viewpoint, it is unlikely that John the Apostle wrote the Gospel of John.

UnKnown's picture
So you would rely on

So you would rely on 'Wikipedia", but not primary and secondary sources?

Nyarlathotep's picture
UnKnown - So you would rely

UnKnown - So you would rely on 'Wikipedia", but not primary and secondary sources?

That is just the point: get this through your head; the Gospels are not primary sources. There is not a single primary source for the character of Jesus.

simply agnostic's picture
a Christian apologist is josh

a Christian apologist is josh McDowell all this doesn`t really matter because Jesus is not alive nor is he returning it is one big hope it is a fantasy if you will. dead people don`t rise nor do they resurrect.the Christian faith is just that it relies on things not seen but hoped for.its that leap of faith that I don`t accept,.kieregard espoused this line of thinking.But the enlightenment shed new light on this, and biblical scholars and philosophers of the 18th and future generations centuries later have revised the earlier writings,

Pitar's picture
There were no disciples.

There were no disciples. There isn't any historicity on them in any of the period public records, or other archeological evidence, of ever existing much less put to some formal or informal trials over their relationship with a jesus character that also does not exist in any public records. The fact is, none of the biblical cast of theological characters existed. The bible's claims about their existence, and the story it portends to be true, were written in a pseudepigraphical manner at least 130 years after the bible claims the people and events occurred in history.

Why can't anyone do a little reading? Start with the Nicene Creed and understand that it was a public court record from Emperor Constantine's court of proceedings (fully 300+ years after the bible's claims) that firmly establish to all men going forward that the early so-called christians were fully aware of the ficticiousness of the trinity, and that particular court was to decide how the writers would agree to create them from...wait for it...thin air.

Stop asking inane questions and read for yourselves. Your faith is embarrassing you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy

mykcob4's picture
Bullshit!

Bullshit!

Nyarlathotep's picture
This just in: Little Bo Peep

This just in: Little Bo Peep was real; how else could she have lost her sheep?

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