Does everything have a start?

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Devans99's picture
I'm intelligent but there is

I'm intelligent but there is nothing supernatural about me. So there is nothing supernatural about an intelligence creating the universe; intelligence is part of nature. I'm not positing that the intelligence has supernatural powers.

But we have statistics; we know, with a sample size of 1, that universes in general are fine tuned for life. Therefore its correct to suppose that all universes are fine tuned for life (and all created by the same intelligence).

Sapporo's picture
Dan: I'm intelligent but

Dan: I'm intelligent but there is nothing supernatural about me. So there is nothing supernatural about an intelligence creating the universe; intelligence is part of nature. I'm not positing that the intelligence has supernatural powers.

If you are saying that there is something greater than the laws of nature, you are invoking the supernatural.

Dan: But we have statistics; we know, with a sample size of 1, that universes in general are fine tuned for life. Therefore its correct to suppose that all universes are fine tuned for life (and all created by the same intelligence).

We know by our definition of life that this universe has life in it. But it is unproven that this universe was fine-tuned. Similarly, it is also unproven that all universes are fine-tuned for life.

David Killens's picture
@Dan

@Dan

"But we have statistics; we know, with a sample size of 1, that universes in general are fine tuned for life."

This universe is insanely hostile to life. Through over 99.99% of it's mass/volume are conditions that kill life.
Dan, if you were to immediately transport your body (without any support for life) a hundred miles in any direction, you would die. If you transported yourself a thousand miles, a thousand light years, wherever you wound up, you would die immediately.

Dan, your assertion flies in the face of evidence.

Devans99's picture
The universe is insanely well

The universe is insanely well fine tuned for life. For example if any of these were even slightly different:
- The force of gravity
- The expansion rate of the universe
- The strengths of the other 3 forces
- The particles of the standard model
Then life would not exist.

toto974's picture
Life as we know him, carbon

Life as we know him, carbon-based one. But technically life can be anything that can be self-replicating so in an Universe with different laws it MAY exist.

Have you the latest studies on the subject. Could you provide links to those which were peer-reviewed?

David Killens's picture
And the evidence states

And the evidence states otherwise. Go anywhere in this universe, and hope you can survive there. Name just one spot outside of this planet where life can survive.

Devans99's picture
Well astronomers have found a

Well astronomers have found a great number of exoplanets.

Cognostic's picture
You have no way to explore

You have no way to explore the Universe, the origin of the universe, or its beginnings. You do not get to ASSERT A MAGICAL CREATOR INTO EXISTENCE. PROVE YOUR CLAIM.

* CREATING TIME TAKES INTELLIGENCE? Now we are in WOOWOOO land.
PROVE YOUR CLAIM

*

Devans99's picture
The creation of time and

The creation of time and space seems to be the Big Bang. A natural explanation seems unlikely bearing in mind the fine-tuning of the multiverse. An intelligent creator(s) is more likely.

Sapporo's picture
Dan: The creation of time and

Dan: The creation of time and space seems to be the Big Bang. A natural explanation seems unlikely bearing in mind the fine-tuning of the multiverse. An intelligent creator(s) is more likely.

Incorrect. The start of the Big Bang is the earliest known event in this universe.

Devans99's picture
But we know logically

But we know logically something must of 'preceded' the Big Bang (in a causal manner):

1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless
etc...
So the base reality in [2] above is not our universe; it contains our universe and our time. Within that timeless base reality something created time and space via the Big Bang...

Sapporo's picture
But we know logically

But we know logically something must of 'preceded' the Big Bang (in a causal manner):

1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless
etc...
So the base reality in [2] above is not our universe; it contains our universe and our time. Within that timeless base reality something created time and space via the Big Bang...

We know that something cannot come from nothing in an isolated system. If the universe is an isolated system, we cannot speculate about what is outside it or about what preceded it.

Cognostic's picture
AHHHH! READ A FRIGGING BOOK

AHHHH! READ A FRIGGING BOOK!
Where is your Nobel Prize?
Even if there is a Base Reality, you can not get from that to your Intelligent Creator. You have to PROVE YOUR ASSERTION/

PROVE THERE IS SOME KIND OF BASE REALITY]
PROVE THAT THAT BASE REALITY IS YOUR INTELLIGENT CREATOR.

Where is the evidence???

toto974's picture
I said him that myself but it

I said him that myself but it seems it was flying in the stratosphere relative to him.

Cognostic's picture
WHY DON'T YOU READ A BOOK!

WHY DON'T YOU READ A BOOK!
The Big Bang is a theory of the expansion of the universe and not its creation. You have not proved the universe is fine tuned. An in intelligent creator waggling his fingers and POOFING a universe into existence is the LEAST LIKELY OF ALL PROPOSITIONS. It is outside the realm of reality. We have no instance of magical beings existing. We have no instances of magic being real. YOU DO NOT GET TO ASSERT YOUR INTELLIGENT CREATOR INTO EXISTENCE.

David Killens's picture
For your assertion to have

For your assertion to have any impetus, you must prove that the universe was fine tuned. We know for a fact that this universe is hostile to life.

Cognostic's picture
* THE UNIVERSE IS FINE TUNED

* THE UNIVERSE IS FINE TUNED FOR LIFE?
For fuck sake.... have you been hiding under a rock for the past 50 years. Your god is superfluous. Watch the video. I don't have time for your moronic assertions. Try to learn something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t10fDLfSV88

Ramo Mpq's picture
@OP

@OP

Yes, everything in our universe (time, space, matter, energy or anything else) has a start and everything ALSO has an end except, that which started everything (I call it god, others can call it whatever they want as it makes no difference). Whether the big bang is first the event in the history of the universe or just the first event known to man is irrelevant. The main point here is it something can NOT from nothing therefore, everything has a starting point. We do NOT need science for us to prove logic and common sense on this particular issue.

Sapporo's picture
Searching for truth: @OP

Searching for truth: @OP

Yes, everything in our universe (time, space, matter, energy or anything else) has a start and everything ALSO has an end except, that which started everything (I call it god, others can call it whatever they want as it makes no difference). Whether the big bang is first the event in the history of the universe or just the first event known to man is irrelevant. The main point here is it something can NOT from nothing therefore, everything has a starting point. We do NOT need science for us to prove logic and common sense on this particular issue.

You've not explained where "god" comes from.

Devans99's picture
I have God / the Creator or

I have God / the Creator or whatever anyone wants to call him/it/them as timeless entities that create time. So the God is dead argument does not hold; God is outside of time; even if he died; he'd still be both alive and dead to us...

CyberLN's picture
Dan, you wrote, “God is

Dan, you wrote, “God is outside of time...”

What do you offer as a demonstration of that?

Cognostic's picture
The universe would exist as a

The universe would exist as a Singularity without the Big Bang. Just as it did before the Big Bang. The Big Bang is not a theory of cosmology. It is a theory of the expansion of the universe.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dan - So there does not seem

Dan - So there does not seem to be anything without a start (a circle has multiple start points).

The graph of sqrt(-x) has no start.

Devans99's picture
That's setting x to negative

That's setting x to negative infinity, but you can't do that because negative infinity is not a quantity:

There is no quantity X that X < all other quantities because X - 1 < X.

Or if you prefer, negative infinity has no start, so it is undefined, so it does not exist

Nyarlathotep's picture
That is a non-sequitur. You

Dan - That's setting x to negative infinity...

That is a non-sequitur. You said everything has a start: what is the start of the graph of sqrt(-x)?

Devans99's picture
The graph of sqrt(-x) is a

The graph of sqrt(-x) is a concept only and you are using it with negative infinity which I've just shown is not a mathematical quantity (in any normal sense) and certainly does not exist in the material world.

However, to avoid confusion, I'll change my proposition to 'everything REAL has a start'...

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dan - ...you are using it

Dan - ...you are using it with negative infinity...

That just isn't true.

You told us everything has a start, and gave a circle as an example; are you now backpedaling away from that?

Devans99's picture
Well certain concepts you

Well certain concepts you could argue don't have a start. Like' empathy' for example. So yes I am changing my proposition to: 'everything REAL has a start'.

That is still sufficient to cover time, space and matter... everything important.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dan - ...everything REAL has

Dan - ...everything REAL has a start...

So does god have a start, or is god not 'REAL'?

Devans99's picture
I would say the creator

I would say the creator/creators of the universe are real and made out of real material stuff and are finite in spacial extent. So yes God has a start.

God is timeless so he does not have a temporal extend...

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