I remember back in my freshman year at college, I had to write and give a speech that required a Q & A debate format at the conclusion. Of course I ceased the opportunity to right a speech about ridding public schools of prayer.
During the Q & A portion I was bombarded by various excuses for prayer in school (none were defensible or valid), as you could imagine. The overwhelming excuse was: "Well shouldn't we have prayer in school, it couldn't hurt."
I was shocked that that was the main excuse offered. Of course prayer in school hurts for so many reasons. They just couldn't see mandating a prayer, a christian prayer was in any way harmful.
Despite the fact that it is a not so subtle form of indoctrination, it also ostracizes those that aren't christian or a type of christian that the majority holds.
I pointed out the slippery slope by posing that "what if the mandatory prayer was an Islamic prayer?" A lame argument on my part because any prayer at all is unconstitutional and unsatisfactory, but also it lends itself to a rebuttal of "Let the majority choose the prayer."
Here are the excuses that theist offer for forced prayer in school:
1) The majority are christian.
2) It can't hurt.
3) If some kids don't believe or are of different faiths they don't have to participate.
4) This nation was founded on Judaeo-Christian principles.
The rebuttal for these are:
1) Your rights are individual not majority rule.
2) It can hurt and does hurt for reasons I stated before and many more.
3) Kids don't understand when they cannot participate, they think that have done something wrong.
4) This nation was NOT founded on any religious principles as made clear by Adams and Jefferson.
What excuses have you run across that theist use to force their religion in government, in schools, and the community at large?
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I only have one rub with the religioso. They represent their doctrine/dogma to the children as fact. That bums me out. Kids trust their parents. Bad move, mom and dad. You suck.
I never let my religious wife at my sons with her persuasions without representing both sides of the argument. They grew up with the option of choice and did the due diligence of reading for fact and fiction. Both are now staunch atheists who must be coached to guard against alienating themselves from the alphabet soup of people and their belief systems. It is, after all, a world they must measurably tolerate and make their way in. Living under a banner isn't going to help them.
I don't even bother to listen. After they finish ranting, I mearly ask "Did any of that include using " Father Christmas", "The Anthromorphic Scapegoat", or " The Holy Toast" as a proof? Any response that begins with "Now wait just a darn second you basterd(I get that one alot) or " Yes, absolutely" is not listened to either. Therefore, there are none I can remember to give as an example.
P.S: Yes, Jeff, I've adopted "Father Christmas" into my conversational vocabulary :). Hope you don't mind.
I'm fine with that lol
All yours to have a laugh at their faces :)
Thank you. Now my "holy Trinity" parody is compleat. I've had "The Anthromorphic Scapegoat" (Jesus) and "The Holy Toast" (kinda obvious) on me for a while, but the only thing I ever found suitable to compleat it was your "Father Christmas" So thank you for what I'm sure will be many good laughs ahead of me.
The trinity comes from gapgan origins too
(this is what i concluded after a deep study of roman history)
but was used to allegorically symbolize the 3 gods/emperors of the roman empire by the early Christians which the church made its best to cover up later on in history.
btw if you happen to be looking for gamers to play with, I would be happy to join you if they are pc games.
Unfortunately, as of this moment in time I'm stuck with smartphone games (a flood in your house ussualy ruins electronic equipment). Just what I get for living next to a river :/
Just dry them up Really well and they should be back online.
(unless they were on when the flood happened and fucked them up)
I will......once I can get to my house.......
Dam I am sorry to hear that.
If I was a mindless idiot theist i would say:
"That is the reason why you don't believe in god."
The answer:
Well, actually I started to care about others much before it happened to me, thanks.
I think it is best to move out of there asap.
The only bridge out of town is underwater (hopefully JUST under it) I'm on a hill, with a bunch of other people at a hotel. Ironicly, power lines and cellphone towers are still operational, which is why I'm not panicking.
did you make sure to switch off the power of the hose before leaving it?
It could save all your equipment in case of a short.
wrong!! we christian parents represent our faith as truth.
@ brian
"our faith"
Just out of curiosity. What do you mean by faith in this context? Do you mean hope, trust, confidence, your religion or belief that is not based on proof?
The fact that you regard religion as truth just proves the injustice that you do your children.
Okay gang, I'm sorry about the flood but could we have more chatter about the subject? Any other excuses out there? Even the very ordinary cliche ones will do. Let's have fun picking these theist excuses apart.
""That is the reason why you don't believe in god."
The answer:
Well, actually I started to care about others much before it happened to me, thanks."
yea you are right, it was kinda out of topic but i tried to bring it back on it.
The problem is that PM cannot be used with some people, including Tieler Lee Smith.
Oh I see. Then please by all means use the thread that I started to continue your conversation. I don't think the topic would have received much traction anyway.
I understand what you are saying, but you act as if I said a fly landed on me and not "my house is underwater due to a flood." Not trying to be oversensitive, but bluntness isn't correct for this scenario.
EDIT: ignore this. Ignore all of this. Including that. And that. And(Möbius Loop, begin)
USA should go back to the old pledge where there was no mention of god, and our government needs to get rid of any form of religious association or anything to do with god, USA should join the rest of the first world countries and hold secular views, now that being said, if you were to endorse god, why not endorse witches? Unicorns? Goblins? Some people might have legitimate beliefs in them, its just a big mess when the government tries to get involved with religion.
I hate that the christians are so obtrusive. God in public schools, god in the courts, god on the currency, god in medical care, it makes no sense and is a clear violation of the constitution.
All I know is the first chance I get, I'm kissing the USA goodbye. Many I'll come back when it's got its head on strait again.
Haha, i love the the USA, i dont plan on leaving, but i plan to make it a better place, try to make a change, and hopefully get all this barbaric nonsense out of here.
I will do the same, but From a different location. Just as Benjamin Franklin was in France foruch of the revolutionary war, and eventually convinced France to aid us in liberation from Britain, I plan to do something similar. Or, better yet, let China take over. A largely unreligous population, and a communist government with a free market economy dosent sound to bad to me.
I've been in China. Things aren't very good there. The general population is so restricted that they would love a revolution if they could mount one. The best nation to live in is still the good ole USA. You have freedoms and opportunity that most if not all nations cannot enjoy. Even the UK has far more restrictions. No the best thing is to work within the USA to make it better. BTW the battle of Conservative verses Liberal exist in every nation in the world. The thing is that Liberals in the USA CAN effect change. I was born in the 50's and grew up watching the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, the gay rights movement and many other movements that made effective change. That could not have happened in any other nation but the USA except one....South Africa. And that only happened because of the USA.
No, I think the best place to live, the greatest opportunity, the greatest freedom exist right here in the USA.
And, considering what you've pointed out, I now consider you correct. Thank you for that.
Freedom is an essential part in a flourishing society. But it is a double edged sword, and needs to be regulated by secular laws.
As I see it it, freedom always comes at a price: It is exploited by the greedy and unscrupulous, and it is misused by the ignorant, intolerant and irresponsible.
(Hmm, weirdly enough all those bad qualities together describe Donald Drumpf perfectly.)
I mean, wtf...
"It’s Now Legal In Mississippi To Discriminate Against Unmarried Couples That Have Sex"
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2016/04/05/3766471/mississippi-governor-si...
But I think you're right in that the best thing to do is to work actively from the inside to change and improve the US.
One good idea might be to use the narrow mindedness of the bigoted against themselves.
I like this twist: "How Atheists Are Turning ‘Religious Freedom’ Laws Against Religion"
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/05/19/3660284/atheists-trying-use-...
This is my favorite part of the U.S. Constitution:
"Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
This article essentially bans any religious idolatry, proselytizing, or test to be in any way part of the government, federal, state, county or city. As a nation we have not been vigilant in keeping this trust with the Constitution and have allowed the treason of conservatives and theist to invade the sanctity of the supreme law of the land with religious perversion of that law.
I asked for the excuses that you have all heard that defends this crime of treason. I asked for the pat defenses and apologist spin that these criminals make. Few have offered much to that end. This illustrates how complacent we have all become. Those whom are not U.S. citizens should also take note because the U.S. Constitution was and is not a document for the people of the United States, but for all people everywhere. It is the standard for liberty and humanity. It is a living document that grows and learns and achieves freedom for all. Yes it is a covenant between righteousness, justice, and humanity.
If I have a religion, it's the United States Constitution. The author of this great document was almost entirely James Madison. It's why my moniker is a portrait of him. A devout atheist with a brilliant legal mind, a scholar, common born and self made. He didn't believe in destiny. He believed in opportunity, justice, fairness. He didn't believe in a god, he believed in law and humanity.
BTW I want to correct something that people often get wrong. The founders were not interested in "free" enterprise. They wanted "fair" enterprise. A very different thing.
Our nation was founded as a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC. Not a theocracy, or an oligarchy.
Most conservatives will tell you this nation is a "republic" and they are partially correct. The leave out a "representative democracy."
All republic actually means is that no autocratic rule, like royalty or a divinely ordained ruler(pope).
Conservatives and theist believe that there is a higher power that they answer to, and think that they are not obligated to answer to the supreme law of the land. Well they are dead wrong, constitutionally wrong, logically wrong, legally wrong.
We can talk all we want about belief, non-belief, but the only thing that matters is the constitution protects whatever you want to think as a right and that right is purely and solely individual. The rest, no matter the excuse is TREASON!!!!!
So here's the thing about forced conversion/proselytizing. Take this from the perspective of a theist (to make things easy, I'll use the Christian worldview, but you can very easily add your own nouns to flavor). You've been taught that there is such a thing as a deity that judges and holds accountable all humans based not on their actions, but on their devotion to the deity. Simply claiming openly that you believe in the deity is enough to satisfy other people that you are safe in the eyes of the deity. That being said, openly claiming that you do not believe in the deity or, worse yet, believe in a separate or contradictory deity is bad. Beyond bad. We're talking an eternity of pain and anguish kind of bad. Actual human empathy makes you understand that eternal pain and suffering is not good. Indoctrination and childhood manipulation makes you think that the best course of action to prevent this is by believing in the deity.
Put it to you like this (thanks to the Scathing Atheist for what I'm going to gruesomely paraphrase): you see a guy who's sitting on a train track. You're facing the direction of an oncoming train and you see that it's not going to stop in time. To your horror, you see the guy simply shake his head and say 'there is no train', or 'there's actually a plane, and planes won't hit me here.' What would be the moral thing to do in this situation? The answer isn't to let the train hit them; the only ethically sound thing would be to pull the man off the track whether he wanted to or not.
This logic applies to eternal damnation. The only ethical thing for someone who's fully drank of the holy Kool-Aid to do is to convert a person to worship and love god, by hook or by crook. It would be immoral for them to do otherwise. This does, of course, put god in the awkward position of being an ethereal blackmailer, but it is the logic that a lot of the more evangelical branches utilize.
The "holy koolaid" about sums it up.
If it was just that, it wouldn't be so bad.
The problem runs much deeper then that I fear.
The problem lies with apologists that try to excuse god from the insanity of implications which arise when such a god is claimed to exist.
Your eternal blackmailer is much worse then that.
He actually engineered the system of death, a test for you to believe before his divine plan of your death comes to pass.
Worst of all, when apologist are asked about the innocent babies, that die before they believed they are left with few solutions.
The typical answer would be that they go automatically to heaven, same do those that never heard of the revelation.
So in essence by spreading the revelation to people the theists are actually giving the people the chance to go to hell.
This leaves us with a god that revealed himself to us so we could go to hell.
LOL the irony.
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