Faith should be considered more certain because mans reasoning could be flawed, completely
incorrect, limited by time, sin, intelligence, or knowledge. Faith can be described as belief in
something being true, while reason can be described as belief that something is true. An
analogy could be drawn in a person stepping onto a frozen pond. A person could believe that
the ice is thick enought to support their weight and have measured the thickness of the ice so
they know it will not break, but until they step onto the ice they have not put their faith in the
ice not breaking. After having determined that special revelation is actually true a person must
still willfully choose to trust God in order to have faith in Him. I can have evidence of my wife’s
love for me but scientific evidence in the natural world cannot prove that her love exists. I can
only have faith that it does exist because she is the authority on her love and she has told me
that she does love me.
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Your faith in god is more certain than your reason. Not mine.
@AJ I can have evidence of my wife’s love for me but scientific evidence in the natural world cannot prove that her love exists. I can only have faith that it does exist because she is the authority on her love and she has told me that she does love me.
That's simply not true. Neuroscience can test love already: different areas in the brain are lightened depeding on whether it's romantic love, or sex desire or long-term love. At risk to be called straw-woman again, I'd recommend to read about anthropologist Helen Fisher who has performed many interesting experiments on love from a scientific perspective. And in case you don't have a neuroscanner closed at hand, there are all sorts of clues to know if someone it's in love, not just words, but other unconscious reactions (dilated pupils, different pitch in their voice, faster breathing, etc.).
We can see the effects that love has on the brain, but that does not make love a physical object.
Well, yes, a non-physical object yet able to be detected and tested.
So if love a non physical object can be detected and known, it is possible that God a non physical being could be detected and known.
@AJ, it is possible. And if that day came, the day a divine entity could be proved by Science, there would have been no atheists left in this world, that's for sure. We're not atheists because it's fashionable or 'cause we like to annoy believers...
The question is, He/She seems very slippery still when it comes to scientific tests.
How do you prove a supernatural being exists by only using that which is within the natural world? Faith being a non physical thing is needed.
"How do you prove a supernatural being exists by only using that which is within the natural world? Faith being a non physical thing is needed."
You can believe anything with faith thus it is useless for assessing the truth of a claim. The fact empirical methods like science can't evidence something is not necessarily an indication of science's limitations, science can't detect unicorns, or mermaids, or garden fairies, the fault doesn't lie with science. You could have faith they exist though, would this make them any more real?
AJ777,
Do you really believe in the ethnocentric Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies?
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with people having faith. People have faith in all sorts of things, quite apart from gods. And as a matter of record, I don't see anything particularly wrong with people having faith in gods. In my own view, we all have a right to freedom of thought, choice and expression. Religious faith only becomes misguided when one person attempts to persuade another to give up that right in favour of his/her own.
Since I have no comment on the above from anyone as yet, I'll expand on that. If my neighbour has a different world view to mine, if he worships a different god to me, or worships the same god in a different way, or worships no god at all, I don't see any of that as a valid reason to take a gun and shoot him. If we wanted to, we could have a peaceful world in which people respect the views of others without necessarily adopting those views. If we ALL did that, we would have no cause for argument.
My circle of friends includes male, female, gay, hetero, native and immigrant, black, white, brown, religious and atheist. I say 'Good morning, and how are you?' to them all. Try as I might, I can't see any of that as a bar to friendship.
To @AJ777: I hope you will forgive my occasional outburst. I'm aware that ( in common with many gay men ) I have a somewhat boyish sense of humour and that, in some circumstances, I ought to make more of an effort to control it.
Keith no worries.
"Faith should be considered more certain because mans reasoning could be flawed, completely
incorrect, limited by time, sin, intelligence, or knowledge"
That is an utterly erroneous statement.Does it occur to you that faith can be flawed.And if you believe that human reasoning can be flawed, why don't you consider that same can be true for faith.After all faith in supernatural is a product of human reasoning.I think having faith is quite natural but that does not make it flawless.I think historically 'faith' might have been a result of humans trying to 'reason' for the unknown and unaccountable events and experiences and maybe for existence itself.
As for the later part of your question @flamencabot covered that.
And I agree with him.
Definition of faith
plural faiths play \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāt͟hz\
1 a :allegiance to duty or a person :loyalty lost faith in the company's president
b (1) :fidelity to one's promises (2) :sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2 a (1) :belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) :belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) :firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) :complete trust
3 :something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially :a system of religious beliefs the Protestant faith
Definition of belief
1 :a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing her belief in God a belief in democracy I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique. contrary to popular belief
2 :something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion :something believed an individual's religious or political beliefs; especially :a tenet or body of tenets held by a group the beliefs of the Catholic Church
3 :conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence belief in the validity of scientific statements.
Definition of reason
1 a :a statement offered in explanation or justification gave reasons that were quite satisfactory
b :a rational ground or motive a good reason to act soon
c :a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially :something (such as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact the reasons behind her client's action
d :the thing that makes some fact intelligible :cause the reason for earthquakes
the real reason why he wanted me to stay —Graham Greene
2 a (1) :the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways :intelligence (2) :proper exercise of the mind (3) :sanity
b :the sum of the intellectual powers
--Mirriam Webster
First, your definitions are wrong. Second, faith and belief are to be convinced of something either with or without evidence (faith=without, belief=sometimes with, sometimes without) and reason (ing) is how you can come to a conviction.
Long story short; you don't need faith for Jack. Faith is how you drink killer Kool-Aid or sell all your stuff because aliens are coming to take you and your group away. Is faith more certain? Maybe. Is it a better thing to have lots of? No. Anyway, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
You lose the ability to hide behind faith as soon as you define your god and make claims of what he or she can do. Those claims can be tested.
For example:
Is there a god or gods?
-I do not know
Is the Christian god real?
-based on the claims written in the Bible, no he is not real.
As to what Keith said... I do agree I honestly do not care if you have a differing belief than me, what I do care about is how over the years humans have demonstrated that they will put their beliefs on others and push their world view. Once someone comes into power that has religious views they get forced on people. Wars have been fought, mass murders have occurred, laws have been passed, all of this plus more have been done in the name of god. This is the fundamental issue with religion.
@Burny That's absolutely right. Religion is ok by me - it makes not one jot of difference to me what other people believe - but when they use it as a political tool, to suppress freedom, rob and murder other people, or to in any way force their beliefs on others - it all goes straight down the pan, along with a civilised society. Atheism is the only belief system that never tries to force itself on others and that doesn't have blood on it's hands.
Thanks Keith, this is why in a lot of my rant type posts I always push For a secular society. I feel I for we could exclude all religious beliefs from a government standpoint we could begin with a level playing field for all. You are from the U.K. And have said it's very secular... I am from America (California) and secular we are not. We might be moving in the right direction but it's a very thin line. I have said it before Baghdad 1000 years ago was the pinnacle of science, free thought and math yet look at them now.
You yanks aint stupid, son, just held back by your own Puritan history. You'll make it, same as we did, because your Constitution gives you the right to free speech. Use that right to get religion out of government, to close down faith schools, and stop people turning religion into money-making machines. The French have the right idea - teaching religion in schools is banned by law there, and pupils are not allowed to wear any item that has any religious significance. Even us Brits haven't got to that yet - but we will.
That's crazy I didn't know that about the French... I do feel like we are far from that. I live in California which from talking to people from the Bible Belt we are heathens compared to them. I think Texas just passed a law to allow creation to be taught in science classes.
AJ777
Is faith the only way you can prove your god is real? Can you prove your god is real without faith?
It depends on what you mean by “prove”. We can know beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists based on evidence and personal experience. I’m simply stating faith or trust in that which is infinitely more trustworthy than my human reason is more certain. One can of course have faith in an object that is not trustworthy, if I stepped onto thin ice that could not support my weight and drowned in cold water, then I have placed my faith in the wrong object.
" We can know beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists based on evidence and personal experience."
Yet you can demonstrate no evidence for this "knowledge", only antiquated arguments rife with logical fallacy.
" I’m simply stating faith or trust in that which is infinitely more trustworthy than my human reason is more certain."
How do you know? You can't use your flawed reason after all, and if your using faith to confirm the validity of faith then is quite demonstrably circular reasoning. Do you believe in Ganesha or Vishnu? How do you argue against the "faith" of those who do if their faith is superior to your reasoning? I'm guessing you'll now resort to special pleading to favour your deity over those of others, but fail to see the irony.
He won't answer you honestly!!!! I have tried but every time I ask him a direct question we end up on the other side of the world.
I'm surprised that AJ777 hasn't come back to me on the subject of faith schools and teaching religion to children. But perhaps he will, unless he agrees with what I've said.
"Faith in god is more certain than reason".
Hmmm....let's just think about that, shall we?
Faith, a belief that something is true.
faith
fāTH/Submit
noun
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
"she gave her life for her faith"
So "faith" is something that exists without proof. Don't see ANY certainty there....at all.
Reason:
rea·son
ˈrēzən/Submit
noun
noun: reason; plural noun: reasons
1.
a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
"the minister resigned for personal reasons"
synonyms: cause, ground(s), basis, rationale; More
good or obvious cause to do something.
"we have reason to celebrate"
LOGIC
a premise of an argument in support of a belief, especially a minor premise when given after the conclusion.
2.
the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"there is a close connection between reason and emotion"
synonyms: rationality, logic, logical thought, reasoning, cognition; formalratiocination
"postmodern voices railing against reason"
what is right, practical, or possible; common sense.
"people are willing, within reason, to pay for schooling"
synonyms: good sense, good judgment, common sense, wisdom, sagacity, reasonableness
"he continues, against reason, to love her"
one's sanity.
noun: one's reason; plural noun: one's reasons
"she is in danger of losing her reason"
synonyms: sanity, mind, mental faculties; More
verb
verb: reason; 3rd person present: reasons; past tense: reasoned; past participle: reasoned; gerund or present participle: reasoning
1.
think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"humans do not reason entirely from facts"
synonyms: think rationally, think logically, use one's common sense, use one's head/brain; More
find an answer to a problem by considering various possible solutions.
synonyms: work out, think through, make sense of, get to the bottom of, puzzle out; informalfigure out
"we finally reasoned out the cryptic message in chapter twelve"
persuade (someone) with rational argument.
"I tried to reason with her, but without success"
synonyms: bring around, coax, persuade, prevail on, convince, make someone see the light
"she tried to reason with her husband"
So "reason" is based on information good or bad, but still information.
AJ777, you have reason to believe your wife loves you because you have information that supports it. She may express it with words and action. However she does it, she conveys information for you to reason that she loves you. You may have faith that she loves you based on that reason.
Faith in a god is not certain nor is it reasonable. You don't have anything to support a god exists.
Faith without reason is blind faith. What you have in your god is blind faith. All the information you have that a god exists, in the so-called action and intentions of your god, are just justifications, not proof or real information. You were born into your faith, institutionalized into your faith.
So given what your faith is based on, there is nothing that anyone can call a certainty.
therefore "faith in god...." is not more certain than reason. Actually, it is unreasonable.
I agree faith without evidence, and reason is blind faith. That is not what I’m advocating. There is evidence sufficient to believe that God exists. You don’t know how I came to faith. That’s the genetic fallacy.
@AJ777
" That’s the genetic fallacy." Genetic fallacy? What the hell does that mean?! There isn't sufficient evidence of any god. There is sufficient brainwashing, institutional indoctrinating. Evidence? NOPE!
AJ777 I just bet that you were born a christian, raised in a christian household! Am I right?
As for your claim that there is sufficient evidence to believe ina god...
1) That is a contradiction in terms
2) You'd have to supply that evidence.
But since you keep asking what proof is needed and never really provide any proof, the point is moot.
Oh, sure you have posted propaganda from dubious people that have an agenda. Oh, and BTW, those people never actually proved a god. But you have never actually produced any proof of a god.
Now you are proposing that we just believe in a god because YOU say that reason isn't important. Then you claim that god is a certainty, which by definition is a lie.
So AJ777 if you actually break down what you are proposing it is this: "Don't be reasonable. Have faith in a god without thinking, questions, or reason." Of course, that is exactly what you do, but that isn't at all logical or even smart. I am not going to base my life on an unproven myth because someone said so.
"I agree faith without evidence, and reason is blind faith. That is not what I’m advocating. There is evidence sufficient to believe that God exists. You don’t know how I came to faith. That’s the genetic fallacy."
You have no evidence you can demonstrate though, just fallacious arguments, and when these are refuted you ignore the refutations. Also why bother with faith at all if you have evidence, just present it finally?
Aj777 please in your own words... what evidence do you have for the god of the Bible?
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