I am new here, and not an atheist. (heavily questioning everything right now) For now, all anyone needs to know about me is that my screen name is JadeRider1 and this is because my cat is named Jade after her eyes and she is my #1.
The only reason I thought to join an atheist group is because I lately feel very trapped in my Christian faith. Ever hear of the problem youth face with finding employment? They are upset because they need experience to get a job, but they need a job to get experience, leaving them right back where they started, but more aggravated from the experience. This is how I feel right now.
My friends in the Christian circle often talk about the growth they experience with God. How they feel Him close to them and He leads them on the path to becoming a better person. Of course this appealed to me, who isn't looking to improve themselves if it will better them and those they love? I however, can't seem to achieve this same measure of growth, nor any growth at all actually.
The way a Christian believes is that humans are innately evil, that we need the help of the moral God to follow His laws. The only way to receive His help in the endeavor is to accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior and spend time listening to Him. Spending time in His Word is the way most of us would suggest proceeding.
The problem with this is that I am in a spot, and have been for awhile, where I want nothing more than to be holy in his eyes, but to do this you must leave behind immoral practices. To leave those things behind, especially the ones you love, you need serious self control. To gain this self-control, you need to spend time with God on a daily basis, but when one of those immoral practices you're trying to beat is your lack of desire to spend time in God's Word daily, you're in a circle. be holy, leave behind unrighteousness, need self-control, need God to get self-control, need self-control to spend time with God so He will grant you self-control.
So my predicament is that I'm not yet willing to give up my belief, but I am forever trapped in a circle of stagnancy if I remain in the life that I live now. I want better for my life than repetitive circles, and the trouble is that I've seen friends of mine become amazing people through the help of Christ but it doesn't seem to be working for me.
So I'm willing to listen to any input from anyone. I came to an Atheist group because I know there will be both Atheists and Christians here.
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HI Jade. Welcome.
You said, "...I've seen friends of mine become amazing people through the help of Christ but it doesn't seem to be working for me."
Perhaps it's not working for you because that's not how it actually worked for your friends. When one focuses on their own behavior, they drive it. They make conscious decisions about how to behave. You have the power to do that as well.
So far as the immoral practices to which you refer in the OP, I suspect many of them are not, in fact, immoral. The rest, well, you are the one who decides not to engage in those behaviors. If the behavior is in the form of a compulsion that hurts you or someone else (e.g. Pedophilia, or some sort of self-flagellation) , I would then, with respect, suggest a therapist.
The thing about religion, especially Christianity, is that it convinces you that you are inherently a bad person and you then approach everything you do with that mindset. I highly doubt that you truly are a bad person. In particular, not feeling the need to "spend time in god's world", in my eyes makes you a person who realizes, at least on some level that your life is what YOU make it, not any one or any thing else. As an atheist, I recognize that I alone control my behavior and my life is what I make it, so if I want to have a good one, I live my life in a manner that achieves that. My morals come from knowing what is right and wrong for me and my life. They are not dictated to me by some nebulous entity in the sky. While personally, I had no difficulty throwing off the pretense of religious belief, many here had much difficulty with the process and they can help you as you struggle with seeing your life free of religion and superstition. Congratulations on opening your eyes to a much better existence!!
If you don't like where you are then you should probably go somewhere else. If you've tried it and it doesn't work then no amount of effort will change that.
This, as CyberLN brings up, depends a lot of what the "immoral practices" are.
If these practices is something that is not punishable by secular law, it's probably not actually immoral.
If it is immoral only from the religious perspective, you should probably take some time to dig deeper. Is it actually immoral?
Not to imply anything, I'd like to take the example of homosexuality.
It is a good example for something that is considered immoral and sinful by conservative religious people. But many moderate religious and a majority of the non religious don't consider it immoral. (Even though some still consider it weird or biologically wrong, they don't actually view it as immoral).
Why would conservative religious people claim it is immoral in today's world? Especially when there is a large number of other rules that does not seem important to obey. Why do they ignore those rules and not the one about homosexuality?
Some samples of rules that are punishable by death, from Leviticus 4 and 5 where it also says that homosexuals are to be killed:
- Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1) [God will smite you.]
- Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6) [“You will die” and God will be angry at everyone. May only apply to the priesthood.]
- Tearing your clothes (10:6) [“You will die” and God will be angry at everyone. May only apply to the priesthood.]
- Drinking alcohol in holy places (10:9) [“You will die.” May only apply to the priesthood.]
- Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8) [In 20:11, both are to be put to death.]
- Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15) [In 20:12, both are to be put to death.]
- Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20) [In 20:10, both are to be put to death.]
- Practising divination or seeking omens (tut, tut astrology) (19:26) [No penalty, but in 20:6 they will be “cut off from their people” by God. In 20:27, they are to be stoned to death.]
- Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9) [Death, as noted.]
- Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14) [Death.]
Some other rules, although not punishable by death, but nevertheless largely ignored:
- Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19) [15:24 simply says the man will be considered unclean for 7 days. In 20:18, “Both of them are to be cut off from their people”]
- Trimming your beard (19:27) [No penalty given.]
- Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27) [No penalty given.]
- Getting tattoos (19:28) [No penalty given.]
- Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32) [No penalty given.]
- Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11) [No penalty given.]
(Examples taken from: http://hill-kleerup.org/blog/2012/06/13/76-things-banned-in-leviticus-an... )
Why is the rule about homosexuality so important that they cherry pick it out of everything else? Sex should be perfectly all right as long it is between consenting adults and people are not getting hurt (beyond their own wishes).
Why are the other rules not important compared to the rule about homosexuality?
Words like hypocrisy, cherry-picking, self righteousness, fear, deception and so on come to mind.
Did Jesus condemn homosexuality?
Some wish to claim so, by saying that he condemned sex outside marriage.
Others does not seem to agree: "Jesus said some are born gay." - http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/born_gay.html
Rules such as these, are not rules that apply to the modern world. It is high time to get rid of them.
Very good, but you forgot that prawns are also banned.
Quite right, I skipped several different rules.
Thanks :)
I'm well aware of many of the discrepancies of the Bible. The only problem with that is, those who made me aware of such were leaders of apology in my church that I've attended since I was born. The only people who have ever influenced my mind on the validity of Scripture were people who either; believed it wholeheartedly, or were trained in the art of convincing lies.
I am also VERY well aware of the hypocrisy in the church. believe me, if there is one thing that has angered me even more than the fact that I can't seem to achieve closeness with God, it's the way His followers preach hell fire and damnation at some sins, then do a 180 and teach grace and forgiveness for others. Most often the grace and forgiveness sins being the ones that they themselves struggle with.
The way I was taught to counter the "why don't you obey all the laws" question is that laws found in the Old Testament before the sacrifice of Christ can be broken into 3 groups, the moral laws, the sacrificial laws, and the ceremonial laws.
Moral laws are the ones that explain how God feels about the way humans should behave and act. These are laws that were not cast away with the sacrifice of Christ. They are eternal and last forever even into Heaven.
The sacrificial laws were put in place to help placate God's wrath towards the sins of His people leading up to the time of Christ's sacrifice. When Christ died, the ultimate sacrifice was given, and there was no longer any need for the sacrificial laws regarding the priesthood, their garments, what they could and couldn't do and so forth. Anything pertaining to the sacrifice of animals, the priests who preformed the sacrifices, and the temple itself could be cast aside as sacrifice for sin was no longer necessary.
The ceremonial laws (the only ones that don't make sense to me even if you use Scripture to back it) were supposed to pertain only to the Jewish people as a means of setting them apart to be an example for the nations of their time. The best way to attract people to your cause is to live life and be visibly happier than those around you. They see what you have, they want it, and they come to ask about it. The Jewish nation was supposed to be God's poster boy in a way, so God gave them laws that were supposed to help them stand out. My pastor says laws like the tattoos, the standing in an elders presence, the numerous laws about how to weave your fabric, and all other senseless laws like that, were only for the Jews before Christ so that they would be visibly different from those around them and thus create an attraction.
Like I said, I never really believed those last ones, I'm more of a "Christ's sacrifice cancelled out the whole Old Testament law" type of person, but when it comes to Biblical interpretation, to each his own, there's only how many different sects that all take their very unique religions from the Bible, it's kind of sad actually.
As for homosexuality, I believe that if men were supposed to lie with men, or women with women, we would have biologically developed the ability to do so without creating significant health risks and STDs. Any scientist or doctor will tell you the risks involved with that one. In my opinion, it just isn't natural. Once again, to each his own.
"As for homosexuality, I believe that if men were supposed to lie with men, or women with women, we would have biologically developed the ability to do so without creating significant health risks and STDs. Any scientist or doctor will tell you the risks involved with that one. In my opinion, it just isn't natural. Once again, to each his own."
So, we developed the ability for heterosexual sex to be devoid of STDs? There are no significant health risks associated with it? Is the homosexual behavior observed in the rest of the animal kingdom unnatural?
Just curious...
STDs in heterosexual sex can be avoided fairly easily by using proper protection, and only involving yourself in sexual intercourse with serious partners who know their sexual past, and are willing to tell you about it beforehand so you can protect yourself.
If you're going around with every partner under the sun and not being smart about it, then of course you also run a high risk of STDs in heterosexual relationships.
As said in another comment, I'd really prefer not to get deep into arguments about homosexuality. As long as I don't treat people any differently because of what they are, I don't see the problem with being a little off put by the way they choose to do sex. I'm similarly off put by the BDSM community, but I've never seen anyone get after me for thinking that is unhealthy.
As long as they don't make me watch them engage, (and I highly doubt they would) then I am totally fine with them. My favourite co-worker is homosexual, and it actually really saddened me the way other people wouldn't be around him. He is super funny, kind, and caring. In fact, if he wasn't homosexual, everyone would have thought he was the perfect little Christian boy. I am 100% against defining someone by one thing that they do, that doesn't mean that I can't look at some things they do and feel a little disgusted by it.
STDs in heterosexual sex can be avoided fairly easily by using proper protection, and only involving yourself in sexual intercourse with serious partners who know their sexual past, and are willing to tell you about it beforehand so you can protect yourself.
If you're going around with every partner under the sun and not being smart about it, then of course you also run a high risk of STDs in heterosexual relationships.
As said in another comment, I'd really prefer not to get deep into arguments about homosexuality. As long as I don't treat people any differently because of what they are, I don't see the problem with being a little off put by the way they choose to do sex. I'm similarly off put by the BDSM community, but I've never seen anyone get after me for thinking that is unhealthy.
As long as they don't make me watch them engage, (and I highly doubt they would) then I am totally fine with them. My favourite co-worker is homosexual, and it actually really saddened me the way other people wouldn't be around him. He is super funny, kind, and caring. In fact, if he wasn't homosexual, everyone would have thought he was the perfect little Christian boy. I am 100% against defining someone by one thing that they do, that doesn't mean that I can't look at some things they do and feel a little disgusted by it.
Thank you all for your contributions. I understand completely what all of you are saying. I just feel as though this is going to take a long time for me.
I've been taught my whole life by people I trust that Christianity is the only way things work. (I was brought up in a small town where differing view points are few and far between) I don't know anything outside of it.
Before I can drop the idea of Jesus altogether, I have to be 100% sure that He isn't there. If there really is a God who loves me enough to send His Son to save me from anything I'd ever done wrong, I'd be a fool to leave Him. There is also the issue of giving up Heaven and risking Hell if I'm on the right track but there is something I'm missing, but if He isn't there, I'm wasting my time.
Did anyone else have a really hard time dropping their religions, or am I just being childish?
Hey jaderider, I can relate to what you're talking about here. I was brought up catholic in a small Irish town. Differences of opinion on religion were also very few and far between there. Like yourself I never really felt a personal connection with god or Jesus or the holy ghost the way people around me claimed that they did. I also had many doubts about the teachings of the church such as the creation story, the virgin birth, the resurrection, transubstantiation (that's a catholic thing where the bread and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Christ). These were all things that I had been taught to believe all my life by people I knew and loved and respected. I did try to believe and to pray and I did go through phases of blaming myself for my lack of faith, thinking that some defect on my part might have been the reason why I wasn't close to god, why I couldn't understand and accept scripture like everyone else. I thought just as you've said that I might be damned on account of this. In the end though no matter how hard I tried I couldn't convince myself to believe in all these things and now I'm an out and out atheist and proud. It wasn't just my own subjective feelings that led me to this though. I read books and learned to think critically about the world and how it works. Now I have a zoology degree and a deeper and more meaningful understanding and love for the world than any religion could ever lead to. I still have friends and family who are devout Catholics. My father, who I respect and look up to a great deal, is a true believer and his faith is very important to him. My lack of faith does upset him I think and that does cause me regret. That being said though we are still have a close, loving, respectful relationship. Others are less understanding and have pretty much cut me off. In the end its better to be honest with yourself and everyone else about what you really believe and what you don't.though. If people ostracise you for your sincerely held world view then maybe you're better off being free of people like that and there will be people regardless of how devout they are that will still accept and love you regardless of your religious convictions or lack thereof. I apologise for any spelling or grammatical errors in this post, I've written it on my phone and I've had a few drinks but I do hope that this helps in some way.
Thank-you for this. It's awesome to know I'm not the only person who has a hard time giving up on faith. I think I'm willing to give it one more honest effort, and If God is truly out there, and He is as loving as He says and truly "wishes that none would perish" He will honour this last effort of mine.
I just feel like I have to go at it once more if I am to truly, once and for all out to rest the way I was brought up.
I wonder though, all of these friends of ours who say they feel such a closeness with God, how can that be explained if He is not there? Are they so blind that they actually feel it, or are they all just like us, feeling nothing, but going to church every Sunday and pretending that they feel it. Do they all raise their hands in worship to feel a closeness with those around them because they assume everyone else feels what they can't.
I have always wondered if I was the only one who walked what I felt was a lie. Was I the only one who couldn't fell God's presence. Now I wonder if people are really forcing themselves to feel something because of their devotion, or if we are all masking our true feelings to maintain relationship with each other.
@ Paddy
A magnificent post!
JadeRider1 - "In my opinion, [homosexuality] just isn't natural."
Reading and writing isn't natural either.
Sorry if that was offensive. I have no desire to offend anyone or get into any arguments about the subject of homosexuality because it is a topic that I feel will always be disputed. I don't like arguing with people, so I would like to respectfully realize that not everyone feels the same way I do about homosexuality, and not everyone has to. We're entitled to our opinions, I just find it to be wrong.
Note: this does not mean I find homosexuals to be gross, or any less human. I love and respect all homosexuals for who they are as people, not the gender of lover they choose. My favourite co-worker is a homosexual. He is my favourite because he is absolutely hilarious, and he is an overall joy to be around. He is kind, and compassionate, and overall, a really good person.
Just because I find something to be distasteful and wrong doesn't mean I hate people who engage in such things. For the most part, I've already decided whether or not I like you based on your attitude before I ever find out what orientation you are.
I really hope that my opinion on this isn't going to hinder any future friendships on this site, and I also sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone here.
I generally don't comment here (read: never). This site is important to a family member I'm trying to respect the viewpoint of, so I read it with respect. To your conundrum: there is a long-standing principle expressed by Anselm of Canterbury. 'Credo ut intellegam.' Or 'I believe so that I might understand.' I've found that part of the gift of faith is precisely that it does not overwhelm by force of argument. There is an initial step by you toward belief that invites understanding. See Anselm's Proslogion.
Chris - "'Credo ut intellegam.' Or 'I believe so that I might understand."
I think Barnum put it better: "There's a sucker born every minute".
Imagine if you invested money, tried to do some math, tried to pick the best way to drive to work, or just about any activity with 'credo ut intellegam'. You'd be locked up as a madman. This is special pleading.
@ JadeRider1
"I just feel as though this is going to take a long time for me."
It's good to allow things like this to take its due time. Rushing it will do no good.
"I've been taught my whole life by people I trust..."
It's interesting to hear how aware you are about the circumstances.
"Before I can drop the idea of Jesus altogether, I have to be 100% sure that He isn't there... ...but if He isn't there, I'm wasting my time."
Again, very interesting to hear your thoughts about this. You certainly seem to have the ability to take a step back and look at the bigger view.
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My way of thinking about the people you know who have had experiences with God:
How do we know what the faithful believe is true or not?
There are many different religions and within each religion, many branches. No matter what religion or denomination, there are people who "know beyond a shadow of a doubt" that their beliefs are true, their god/gods exist. I have asked some Theists how sure they are that their god exists, and the answer is not seldom "100%".
So, how do they know with such high degree of certainty?
They have all had one or more transcending personal experiences which they refer to: I saw a miracle, Jesus came to me, Allah sent a guardian angel, etc.
If one religion were the one and only true religion, these utterly convinced people should all adhere to that same religion, should they not? But they exist in every religion. Does this mean that all these 100% sure believers in all the other religions have been fooled into thinking that theirs is the one that is true? If so, what is stopping all the believers of all the religions from being fooled in that same way?
If somehow, they all worship the same god, then none of the dogmatic teaching of the different religions can be true.
I wrote a post earlier about knowing:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/comment/26250
Thanks, I take that as a high complement as I'm sure you place a high value on facts and sound thinking.
I have always tried very hard to see the bigger picture on things. Part of this stems, again, from my upbringing. In my church, we are always taught to look at any situation in life from the perspective of a God who can see every single cause and effect of every action and feeling. I was taught to take a step back from any situation in my life and ask myself what the possible implications of my circumstances were, and If God may have some higher plan in what, at the moment seemed to be disaster. Looking for the Silver Lining if you wish.
Despite my attempts to see a bigger view point, I'm also one who absolutely loves a good fantasy, whether it be a daydream, a great book, a movie, I just adore alternate realities. That is probably going to be the hardest thing for me to let go of. The idea of a God who loves me, is all powerful, has a grand master plan that somehow fits everything that happens into a perfect puzzle, and is creating a place for me in a reality of perfection beyond comprehension is just the kind of fantasy I hope for, and being taught that it is actually true gives me something of a ledge to hold on to when life gets rough.
I don't actually know how on earth people can be so certain. I for one, haven't the certainty they claim to have since I was very young, possibly between 5 and 7, though I don't know for certain. The transition from complete faith to a skeptical faith was very natural, and almost unnoticeable.
Another thing that really holds me back, is the fact that my dad passed from cancer this past year, he was my role model, and being taught all your life that you will see your loved ones again, and believing it with all your heart really helps mourning them to be easier. I feel like if I completely abandoned the faith of seeing him again, I would have to mourn losing him all over again. This time, not just for a lifetime, but for an eternity that I thought I had. I don't want to lose him again.
The same God is not an option. If it were, that would be the most confused, bi-polar, and dangerous being in existence, and I'd be leading a rebellion against Him, not standing with Him. To imagine Allah and Christ to be the same is ludicrous, and that's not adding in all of the peaceful Gods of lesser known religions. Then there are those who are Satanists. Imagine a God who is constantly battling Himself and speaking to different people about different sides to Him and bringing them to war with each other over it. That's a tyrant not a benevolent and merciful God like the one I still believe in.
I also never really understood why people dispute the Bible so much as to split up over it. The Bible itself teaches against such splitting of the body of Christ. (1Corinthians 3:4-8) Even if we dispute matters of Scripture, we are to set aside our differences in the pursuit of serving Christ in our greatest capacity.
I've heard of people being pushed to leave the body of Christ because of such hypocrisy, as far as I'm concerned, if there is any merit to the Scripture, I shouldn't leave just because others are using it's words falsely. If I believed something to be true 100%, I would follow it to death even if other people misinterpreted it. I question because of a lack of evidence in my own life, not because of anything going on in the church. I love the people there, they are all wonderful. Many of them so devout and strong in their faith. I've admired them for years, and If I drop the faith, I feel I will still admire them based on their ability to stick to their beliefs no matter the personal cost.
A part of me still really hopes that I will wake up one day, and I will just hear God speak to me, and that I will finally understand what I've been missing this whole time and that I will be able to go back to devoutly following, but this time with all the growth Scripture says that I am supposed to have. Part of me still thinks it may be real, but the other part of me is telling me to stop being childish.
"I don't want to lose him again."
JR1, my condolences. Cancer sucks.
Have you really lost him though? You have been forever changed in the knowing of him. You gave forever gained in the knowing of him.
That post on knowing was excellent!
This has become a very interesting discussion. As I've said I think I was in a similar situation at one point so here's a few more thoughts.
You talk about trying to view situations at a distance from the perspective of an all-knowing all-powerful god. To find a silver lining in a disaster and how it may fit into his plan. Surely this is a very flawed way of viewing the world though. God loves us and has our best interests at heart BUT sometimes nasty shit happens, that's ok though because god is mysterious and its all part of his cunning plan, a plan as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford university, we lowly mortals are just not cunning enough to appreciate his designs. I mean seriously? Come on? Really?????
A lot of nasty shit does happen every single day. Charles Darwin wrote of the Ichneumon wasps, a species which paralyses its prey with its sting and lays its eggs inside them so that its offspring can eat them alive from the inside out. He couldn't see how a benevolent loving god would have created such a fiendish little beast. That is only one example of the "low and horridly cruel works of nature" I wont even go into all the nasty shit that people do to other people or all the suffering, death and misery caused by disease and natural disasters. If this is all part of a divine plan then surely the planner is a sadistic bastard not a loving father. Rather than trying to see all this nasty shit from gods perspective and make out that all this nasty shit somehow makes sense and is for our own good shouldn't we look at it from our own perspective and think about if what we actually see happening in the real world around us is consistent with the idea of a loving, omnipotent, benevolent and all-powerful creator who's running the show?
Another point has come up regarding people of different faiths claiming to be 100% certain that their religion is the right one. You say yourself that it can't be the same god addressing different people in different ways as that would be "the most confused bi-polar and dangerous being in existence" and I think you're bang on the money there. So who's right? Who's wrong? If there is only one real religion then why all the confusion? Surely the idea that they're all wrong is the most sensible answer. As for them that claim a personal relationship with Christ\Allah etc how is that any different than a person who claims he knows that there are aliens visting the earth because he's been abducted or a child talking to an imaginary friend?
In regard to your point relating to the afterlife, first I'd like to say that I'm sorry about your father. The loss of a loved one is an absolutely shattering thing that everyone sadly has to go through in life. I have lost people close to me. As wonderful as it would be to be reunited with them after I pass I genuinely don't believe that I will be. This can be a very painful thought but it makes me all the more glad that I had those people in my life and that I was in theirs. To me it makes the times we've had with people that have passed on and the time we have with our friends and loved ones here in this world now all the more precious and important and worth enjoying. I hope that what I've said here in regards to this I have managed to say with sensitvity as I know this is can be a very delicate topic.
@ JadeRider1 and Paddy
JadeRider1: "I'm sure you place a high value on facts and sound thinking."
Sure, but mostly I value the ability to question, even when it is uncomfortable.
Before I continue, I would like to say that I don't want to push anyone away from their benign beliefs. I simply find this to be a subject that is interesting to discuss and to hear other viewpoints on.
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JadeRider1: "...a place for me in a reality of perfection beyond comprehension is just the kind of fantasy I hope for, and being taught that it is actually true gives me something of a ledge to hold on to when life gets rough."
I understand that it is something that is appealing and also that letting go of it, is a scary thought.
JadeRider1: "Another thing that really holds me back, is the fact that my dad passed from cancer this past year"
I'm very sorry for your loss.
I mean no disrespect and I have no wish to rob anyone of thoughts of reuniting with their loved ones. At the same time, if heaven and hell are religious fabrications, then those are some cruel lies. Wouldn't you want to know the truth, even if you didn't like it?
I lost my mother a few years back, unexpected and too early. It took about 3 months for her to wither away and it was very depressing and hard. Personally, as an atheist, I felt that the absence of the religious perspective was to avoid muddling it all up with abstract concepts and thoughts. I find that the atheist perspective, helped me mourn with a clear head.
Paddy: "...it makes me all the more glad that I had those people in my life and that I was in theirs. To me it makes the times we've had with people that have passed on and the time we have with our friends and loved ones here in this world now all the more precious and important and worth enjoying."
I would just add "...and worth remembering."
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JadeRider1: "The same God is not an option. If it were, that would be the most confused, bi-polar, and dangerous being in existence"
My intention was to give an image more like how that this god is a generic god that perhaps listens to some peoples prayers, perhaps does something here and there. A god that sparked and perhaps guided life. And that none of the religions are correct, but none of them are completely wrong either. A god that doesn't fit into any of the religious dogmatic teachings.
(Somewhere between deism and theism.)
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In regards to those who know with 100% certainty that their god is the one true god...
Paddy: "...how is that any different than a person who claims he knows that there are aliens visting the earth because he's been abducted or a child talking to an imaginary friend?"
Good point, this phenomenon is not limited to the religious at all.
My point in bringing this up, was that since this behavior of knowing with 100% certainty occurs in all religions (and even outside of religions), it is impossible to distinguish between believers of a false religion and believers of the (alleged) one true religion. Even the believers themselves wouldn't be able to make out the difference (if they would try), since they are all equally convinced "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that their beliefs are true.
This is a video of people from different religions describing their religious experiences, witnessing for their religion. It's well worth the watch. (13 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go
There is never anything tangible, never any proof outside of the mind of the believers.
As an atheist, I'm not saying that "god does not exist". I simply don't believe in any god because there is no credible evidence for such a thing. If a god would actually show up, I would believe. And perhaps I would even worship it, if it were worthy of it.