Freedom???

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Tin-Man's picture
Freedom???

While browsing through some of the older debates files, I stumbled across "Let's talk about FREEDOM". It was started by Chuck back around September 2014, and it was most entertaining to see some of the mental gymnastics of Chuck and other theists in the debate who were trying to defend their beliefs. Basically, it was an attempt to show how much "more free" Christians are because of their faith in God and his supposed "free will". Again, it was amusing. In light of that, I figured, "Eh, why not renew the discussion? Could be interesting now that there are so many new folks on here." So, as a tribute to good ol' Chuck (wherever he may now be), please allow me to launch this debate with the following story...

An honest, decent man owns and operates a little retail shop in the city. Let's call him Bill. The business does not make Bill a rich man, but he makes enough to live a relatively comfortable life. One day while Bill is stocking his shelves, a man in a suit walks into the store and introduces himself. "Hi, Bill. I am Mr. Jones." Perplexed, Bill replies, "Uh, hello... but how do you know my name." The man says, "Oh, I know many things about you, Bill, but that is not important right now. The reason for my visit today is that I would like to make a business deal with you. It is a deal I think you are going to like very much if you have a moment to hear it." Hesitantly, Bill replies, "Well, okay, I suppose." So the man continues, "Bill, you have a wonderful little shop here, and I truly love that you are a decent, honest, hard working man. With that in mind, it would be an absolute shame if any type of.... "accident" were to happen here to put you out of business. My proposition to you, my good man, is that you simply pay me a small percentage of your income every month. In return, I will personally guarantee that nothing will ever happen to your cozy little shop here. Oh, and as an extra incentive, I will even help your business grow and flourish far better than it ever has. How does that sound to you?" At this point, Bill is obviously getting a bit nervous, and he tells the man, "Sir, no disrespect, but I'm gonna have to ask you to leave now." With a chuckle, the man replies, "Bill, Bill, Bill.... Oh, my. *tsk-tsk* Apparently, you do not understand. Please allow me to explain. If you refuse my offer and choose not to pay me every month, I am afraid I know some very nasty and malicious fellows who love nothing better than to destroy private property and cause total mayhem. I would sincerely and absolutely hate it if they were to find out that I am not providing protection for you. And it would be even more horrible if they found out where you and your family live, wouldn't it? But, hey, nobody is forcing you to accept my offer. The choice is totally up to you." Now Bill is starting to get mad. "Mister, you leave now, or I am calling the police." Waving his hand dismissively, the man replies, "You mean Chief Smith? Oh, by all means, please call him. And give him my regards while you are at it. Oh, that reminds me, he and I are meeting for lunch this afternoon, so I'm afraid I must be on my way. By the way, I will have one of my men come by next week to collect my payment, that is IF you choose to accept my deal. Remember, you have free will to make whatever decision you want."

Does this sound familiar to anybody? Reminds me of something else I have heard before. Just can't quite put my finger on it... *scratching head*

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mykcob4's picture
So tell me Chuck in absentia,

So tell me Chuck in absentia, how can there be free will and pre-destiny at the same time?

Tin-Man's picture
@Myk Re: "free will and pre

@Myk Re: "free will and pre-destiny"

I am SO glad you asked that! Please allow me to explain it for you in simple terms. First of all, you see, God has his "Perfect Plan", right? And then God gave man free will to do whatever he wants, and.... and... Well, he then allows man to... uh, pray to him for favors... and.... uh... so you see... it's like, uh.... well, you know, it's God's perfect plan, and.... uh..... Aw, shit. Fuck it. Yeah, I've got nuthin'.

mykcob4's picture
Put a blonde wig on a metal

Put a blonde wig on a metal man and they lose their minds.

chimp3's picture
I believe we are restrained

I believe we are restrained by evolution and our cell structure to be animals that have no choice but to make choices!

Tin-Man's picture
Hey, Myk! How the hell did

Hey, Myk! How the hell did you know I have blonde hair? (And for your information, the wig is only for "special ocassions." *wink-wink*)

Tin-Man's picture
"Free Will 101" for dummies:

"Free Will 101" for dummies:

You are walking down the street minding your own business when a man approaches you and sticks a gun in your face. "Give me all your money," he demands, "or I will kill you." You refuse to give up your money, and the man shoots you and you die. However, the man cannot be convicted of murder, because you OBVIOUSLY committed suicide. You had "free will", so you CHOSE to die rather than give the man your money. It's really quite simple. I don't know WHY everybody has such a problem with the concept.

Sheldon's picture
I recall Christopher Hitchens

I recall Christopher Hitchens was once asked in a Q&A after a debate whether he believed humans had free will or not. He conceded yes, in fact he replied, "You could say we have no choice but to have it."

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: "You could say

@Sheldon Re: "You could say we have no choice but to have it."

I absolutely love little brain twisters like that. (And Mr. Hitchens is much fun to watch.)

Cognostic's picture
Probably stating the obvious

Probably stating the obvious here but Sam Harris has some great YouTube videos on just this issue.

Tin-Man's picture
Yeah, Sam Harris is an

Yeah, Sam Harris is an absolute mastermind, and it is awe-inspiring watching how he puts the smack-down on the idiots who try to corner him on something. Wish I had his skills.

bigbill's picture
What are you insinuating here

What are you insinuating here!!!! that Christianity is like your imagined story. How blasphemous that is of you, Don`t you have any respect for me and other Christians on this debate page. First off jesus gives us life we can`t do anything without his okay; but if you don`t accept him he won`t force you, you have a thing called free will here; your story is way out of line.

Tin-Man's picture
@DC Re: "What are you

@DC Re: "What are you insinuating here!!!!"

Well, now that you mention it, DC, I'm actually insinuating BOTH analogies (the OP and the robbery story) are similar to Christianity concerning the supposed "free will" mankind has. (Funny, I rather thought that was obvious. *scratching head*) Anyway, point being, how can a person be told he/she has free will when the person gets severely punished by a supreme being for not making the decision desired by same supreme being? Of course, I am fairly confident you have already heard this many times before in many different forms, but the basic premise is the same. And you JUST NOW said yourself, " First off jesus gives us life we can`t do anything without his okay.... he won`t force you, you have a thing called free will here" Can you not see the contradiction there?
As for being blasphemous, it seems rather strange to me that I could be blasphemous toward something in which I do not believe. To me, that equates to being told I am being blasphemous by making disparaging remarks toward Santa Clause. Simply does not compute.
As for respect, that is something I do not simply give out lightly like candy on Halloween. Respect has to be earned. That being said, I do not make it a point to intentionally disrespect others unless given a good reason to do so. Even then I might refrain, depending on the circumstances. And whether or not I like a person has nothing to do with it. I can respect and have respected people I do not even like. For that matter, I can even have respect for people who are not necessarily GOOD people. So, when you ask, "Don't you have any respect for me and other Christians on this debate page?", there is something very important you need to understand.
1. I posted those stories as an illustration to make a point and present a view of a concept. It is part of a belief I have, and it is a belief I am free to express just as you are free to express your beliefs on this site.
2. In posting those stories (or any other posts I have made on this site), I have not and did not intentionally direct any malicious or insulting comments specifically toward you or any other Christians. Not only would that be wrong of me to do, but it would be counter-productive to any discussion we might be having. Moreover, I would be a complete jackass for doing so, and would likely (and rightfully) face being banned from the site.
3. And here is the important one. If I post/express something I believe... and it hurts your feelings... that is YOUR problem, NOT mine.

I can have respect for you as a person, DC, but not so much for the particular beliefs you support. Matter of fact, I sincerely hope you are able to eventually work out whatever problems you seem to be having. And I will be happy to do what I can within the confines of this site to help if I can. Meanwhile, maybe you shouldn't take everything so personally.

Nyarlathotep's picture
devout christian - Don`t you

devout christian - Don`t you have any respect for me and other Christians on this debate page.

No not really. I mean come on, Christianity is basically the Santa Claus story for adults. Except the story about Santa is at least somewhat self consistent, unlike your mythology.

CyberLN's picture
dc, you asked, “ Don`t you

dc, you asked, “ Don`t you have any respect for me and other Christians on this debate page.”

Respect is not a requirement for participation in this forum.

mykcob4's picture
@Devout

@Devout
You said, "First off jesus gives us life".
PROVE IT!
You said, "we can`t do anything without his okay".
PROVE IT!
First off, no one insulted you in any way.
Secondly, anyone can say ANYTHING they damn well please!
So get your panties out of a bunch cupcake!

algebe's picture
@Devout Christian: "How

@Devout Christian: "How blasphemous that is of you, Don`t you have any respect for me and other Christians on this debate page."

First you preach. Now you're trying to censor. Don't you have any respect for freedom of speech?

Your religion has no right to respect. Respect is earned, not demanded. The long and bloody history of Christianity and the antics of its followers today deserve only contempt.

DarkkWolfe's picture
@Devout Christian: If you,

@Devout Christian: If you, like many in my former church, would define blasphemy as a continuous rejection of the holy spirit's "promptings", then I think you'll find every atheist on this page is a cheerful blasphemer. I personally chose to reject the muddled thinking and vague religious experiences I found in the christian church as simple fantasies supported by wishful thinking from my own subconscious mind.

As to the story, it's more than fair to compare a deity who holds damnation over your head while pretending to let you choose, to the far less serious crime of holding property damage over the head of a shopkeeper. In fact, I don't think the comparison takes the criticism far enough. How about we say that an omniscient being who knowingly creates millions of immortal souls he ALREADY KNOWS are destined for eternal torment is an evil sadist bastard at best. In my own case, I feel that the argument against a hell purely using scripture and ancient church history were enough to cast doubt on the doctrine as the original "teachings of jesus (if such there ever were.)" But I know most christians would disagree with me on that point as well.

On the free will topic, a christian minister I know used to ask a question that touched on free will. Basically any time anyone asked him, "why is there only one way to be saved?" he would respond with this thought experiment:

Assume: there is a god. further assume that he created humanity and loves them deeply and that the fall of man has distanced them from him and he desires to fix this problem (yes... this is a HELL of a lot of assuming).

Now: what if the only way to save all humanity (without violating the complex conflicting nature required by an omni-everything deity) is to sacrifice himself (in the person of his "son") in payment for us. And further, that the only way for us to make use of this free gift was to exercise our free will to "believe" and get it.

He seemed to think this was a powerful demonstration of how important our free will was and also how god (constrained by his own nature) had "no choice" but to offer us the arrangement he did in jesus.

Once again, for me it was all those "omni's" that killed this as a viable question. If god knew one of his creations (lucifer) was going to rebel and fuck it up for all the other creations (humans/animals/plants?) what possible rationale could there have been for the creation of lucifer? Or for the granting of free will to a creature who was already known to be unworthy of it. Omniscience is a bitch.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
well and cogently put, sir.

well and cogently put, sir.

Tin-Man's picture
Dark, I salute you.

Dark, I salute you.

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