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If all the terrors that happened before and up to now is called god's plan, it can be concluded that this god in not divine and merciful. then, why worship such god?
If all the terrors that happened before and up to now is called god's plan, it can be concluded that this god in not divine and merciful. then, why worship such god?
God gave human beings free will. Free will is one of the most important concept in the Bible it explains why God doesn't just swoop in and cure everyone of their wickedness. The Bible also says that all of nature is groaning with pain because of human sin, that is why I say that "acts of God" are still caused by human sin. The world God created in the beginning was free from sin and therefore free from pain and suffering and tornadoes and hurricanes etc. That is why I made the claims above... but you know... to most of you-- I live in fantasy land because I read and believe in a book; however, it has answers so I have answers. I'm happy to share with anyone that has real questions about the Bible... MSG me.
“The world God created in the beginning was free from sin and therefore free from pain and suffering and tornadoes and hurricanes etc.”
Please disclose a reference to evidence to back up this claim besides the bible.
NotTheSuperstar - "God gave human beings free will."
You can claim that until you are blue in the face, but it creates contradictions.
NotTheSuperstar - "I'm happy to share with anyone that has real questions about the Bible"
"real" questions, as opposed to what? Questions that are critical?
So you are saying that "acts of God" are created by "sin" and NOT the forces of nature having to do with wind, temperature, tides, the alignment of the moon, gravitational pull, etc., in other words THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE? What a bunch of CRAP! It's useless, folks!!
@Nyar... To answer your question, any questions are fine.
@ImFree... I was giving an opinion in that post, and merely explaining where some Christians are coming from on the topic of this thread. I stress that I do not represent Christianity and that it was an opinion and not something provable. I was quoting the Bible not trying to prove anything.
NOTHING about religion, OR the Bible is provable!! That precicely is our point!!
@Nyar.. Im curious what contradictions arise from the concept of free will?
A1) Joe has freewill.
A2) Joe can get to work on either Apple street, or Baker street.
A3) Tomorrow Joe, will use his freewill to decide which way to go.
A4) ∴Tomorrow Joe can choose either Apple street or Baker street.
B1) God is omniscience.
B2) Tomorrow, Joe can get to work on either Apple street, or Baker street.
B3) God existed before Joe existed.
B4) ∴God knew which way Joe would take tomorrow, before Joe even existed.
B5) ∴Joe must take Apple street tomorrow.
A4 and B5 form a contradiction.
Freewill is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled. Freewill and omniscience cannot coexist. In other words, free choice does not exist with a being that knows what will happen in the future. For the freewill concept to work you would have to admit: (1) your god is not all knowing. (2) Your god does not exist. Neither of which you will be willing to do We are not interested in any circular defense arguments using the bible as a reference or insults because you cannot prove the concept.
@Nyar... the fact that someone knows what you will do does not effect your decision to do it, provided that the person that knew about it did not force you to make the choice you made. Humans have free will, and need it in order to choose to love God or reject him.
@Reality... I've said the same thing many times. The Bible is not provable. I already know that you reject an affirmation from God about his existence after you have taken a step on faith. Like almost everything of the sort.. it is not provable and requires faith first. When God proved himself to me (as an Atheist at the time), it was definitely a heart thing, not a mind thing.
I'm expecting a specific rejection of a premise or the demonstration that a conclusion does not follow.
Sorry, superstar...I guess I'm kind of a strange guy...I just cannot put my faith, trust, and belief in something that isn't there, and is not proveable. I have lived my whole life trying to think logically, and with common sense...I am not willing to change that now, especially for something that dosen't make any sense to me, and is scientifically, biologically, and physiologically impossible.
@ImFree.. I have nothing to prove to you and I value your opinion.
@ NotTheSuperstar: Prove your god exists. Until then, your wasting our time with the free will contention.
I don't see why we can't discuss free-will still, even if God is a myth.
@Nyar... what I'm proposing requires no such thing... its obvious and requires only that you are literate.
Joe has free will
god respects his free will
god only maps out and takes into account joe's choices
therefore god does not effect joe's choices
Since you haven't objected to any of the premises, or the logic of any of the conclusions, I rest my case.
Look @Nyar I don't see how your point disproves mine... if you could put it into terms that an idiot would understand I would appreciate it, as I am apparently and idiot for not getting this. I really do want to genuinely understand what you mean.
Adding a 3rd argument can not resolve a contradiction between 2 previous arguments.
Consider the following:
argument 1 conclusion: "all dogs are red"
argument 2 conclusion: "all dogs are not red"
argument 3 conclusion: ???
You will notice there is no possible conclusion for #3 that can resolve the contradiction between #1 and #2.
I'm colorblind?
Sorry for being silly (that really didn't contribute in any way), that was not my real answer... I was hoping you would answer why or how (below)...
In your argument above the choice was not affected. which means Joe still has free will... amirite?
Joe does not have a choice in argument B because he must choose Apple street.
Okay, I understand why your saying that now; however, he was exercising his free will to make that choice. Now do you see why that still is not a contradiction? He made the choice, regardless of what the spaghetti monster saw...
Could he have chosen Baker street? No, before he even existed it was known he would take Apples street on the day in question. He never had a choice to choose Baker street.
I'll quote the comedian Bill Maher," You don't have any right to put your NON reasoning on the same shelf as my REASONING."
You are saying that by knowing what someone will choose, this somehow physically affects the choice.. I want to know why.
One added observation: In the book of Exodus, God uses his power to repeatedly "harden the heart" of the Pharaoh (Exodus 7:3) (Exodus 9:12) which directly influences Pharaoh’s course of action. So if free will is not very important to God, even if you could prove God’s existence one still could not trust him not to tinker with the outcome which negates the concept of freewill since he has a history of interference.
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