Has nature ever created a code?

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J N Vanderbilt III's picture
The RNA world hypothesis are

The RNA world hypothesis are bogged down with paradoxes and relies on the hope that RNA simply materialized out of nowhere. Where did it come from?
programmed function From within acell is what builds ribozymes (RNA)from DNA code,

aperez241's picture
JN Vanderbilt

JN Vanderbilt

I gave you before articles where they described the spontaneous creation of RNA. There goes another, but if you are still in doubt, google it. RNA is a chemical that can arise naturally under proper conditions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4678511/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002228369190729P

Now what?

Sapporo's picture
@J N Vanderbilt III give an

@J N Vanderbilt III give an example of something that is "not nature" that is falsifiable.

The issue in this thread is that we have you on one hand who does not regard nature as everything that exists, versus everybody else on the other hand who define nature as everything that exists.

It means that you expect others to "prove" something in the affirmative that they define as true by definition if codes are created, or that you expect others to give a meaningful answer to a question that is meaningless if nothing is created (i.e. rather than transformed).

Sheldon's picture
From the OP:

From the OP:

"Has nature ever created a code?"

Yes, every example of a code we have occurs naturally.

"I challenge anyone to point out a code, other then DNA, that is created by nature."

Why other than DNA? Also please demonstrate objective evidence for even a single example of a code created "outside of nature"? Humans create codes, humans like all livingthings evolved and are part of nature.

"The point here is that codes are ONLY created by intelligence"

Human intelligence you mean? Or can you demonstrate any objective evidence for a code created by "intelligence" other than human?

Why are you dishonestly shifting the goal posts from your original OP?

Why won't you answer my question can you demonstrate any objective evidence for a single code created by anything supernatural or not as part of the natural world?

You must see how your claims appear when You dishonestly avoid direct questions like this, but even if you don't we all do.

The atheists on this site have given apologetics far more objective scrutiny than the theists who visit us care to acknowledge.

Yours is not the first argument from ignorance fallacy we've seen, quite the opposite. They're so commonly used by theists it's become something of a cliche. It seems to be in vogue among religious apologists to think they can reverse the burden of proof away from their belief and onto those who don't share it.

J N Vanderbilt III's picture
Sheldon, all I have been

Sheldon, all I have been saying is that codes are created by intelligence period. Logic tells us that there is an intelligence somewhere, sometime, someplace that may not be discernible and you may think that absurd but don’t think it’s absurd that a code was created via nature, given what you commonly know about things that are designed

Sapporo's picture
J N Vanderbilt III: Sheldon,

J N Vanderbilt III: Sheldon, all I have been saying is that codes are created by intelligence period. Logic tells us that there is an intelligence somewhere, sometime, someplace that may not be discernible and you may think that absurd but don’t think it’s absurd that a code was created via nature, given what you commonly know about things that are designed

Your argument is similar to Europeans who believed for centuries that there was no such thing as a black swan. You say that is "all I have been saying", but to hold a premise to be absolutely true is foolish unless it is true by definition. And if it is true by definition, that only means you have defined "intelligence" to suit your own interest rather than make a meaningful observation about nature.

Sheldon's picture
"Sheldon, all I have been

"Sheldon, all I have been saying is that codes are created by intelligence period"

Not true, you stated a challenge plainly in your OP for anyone to demonstrate a code created by nature.

Every example we have of codes being created is by natural phenomena, because the intelligence is human.

Now, I ask again as you keep refusing to answer, can you show a single example of a code created outside of nature? Furthermore can you demonstrate *any objective evidence that *anything outside of the natural material universe exists at all?

"Logic tells us that there is an intelligence somewhere, sometime, someplace that may not be discernible"

No it isn't rational at all to assert this, because you are making yet again an appeal to ignorance fallacy. How can you discern the existence of something that by your own definition cannot be discerned? Good grief man read that claim back...

Your claim that this is rational is false, no matter how many times you repeat it. What's more all you'd need to do is Google informal logical fallacies, then look up argumentum ad ignorantiam.

You are asserting your claim is rational, whilst using a known fallacy in informal logic, and I'm sorry you don't see how risible that is, but nothing you have posted suggests you want to honestly examine why your claim is irrational. Then again anyone who cherry picks a single scientific fact like evolution to deny cannot objectively claim to understand what rational means, or they are simply being intellectually dishonest.

So which of those describes your endless claim that an appeal to ignorance fallacy is rational? The two things are anathema to each other...They're mutually exclusive...don't take my word for it either, this is basic informal logic nothing can be asserted as rational if it contains a logical fallacy...dear oh dear...

J N Vanderbilt III's picture
Sapporo your question is a

Sapporo your question is a bit confounding but I will say that if you think existence is comprised of just 3 dimensions you are missing the boat

xenoview's picture
@jnv3

@jnv3
Are you saying that god created life? If so, then what objective evidence do you have that god is real?

Sapporo's picture
J N Vanderbilt III: Sapporo

J N Vanderbilt III: Sapporo your question is a bit confounding but I will say that if you think existence is comprised of just 3 dimensions you are missing the boat

Can you define this boat?

LostLocke's picture
First, we know there are (at

First, we know there are (at least) 4 dimensions, not 3. 3 spatial, 1 temporal.
Second, you can't just say there are more dimensions, you have to be able to demonstrate it in some way.

Rivka's picture
Hint hint everyone, J N

Hint hint everyone, J N Vanderbilt III just proved he knows nothing about genetics...

Sapporo's picture
Theists often say atheists

Theists often say atheists are narrow-minded for not considering the supernatural, but I find it is more the case that theists are narrow-minded for not considering explanations that are plausible.

arakish's picture
Saporro: "Theists often say

Saporro: "Theists often say atheists are narrow-minded for not considering the supernatural, but I find it is more the case that theists are narrow-minded for not considering explanations that are plausible."

And I feel ole jnv3 is the poster child for this one.

Rivka: "Hint hint everyone, J N Vanderbilt III just proved he knows nothing about genetics..."

And a poster child for this one. You go girl.

He just cannot grasp that nature creates NO codes. Us humans apply the codes, letters, words, names, etc. to provide a framework in order to better understand the complexities of nature. And another of my sayings when I answered someone who stated: "The complexity and diversity of life had to have had a Creator.

I can easily see where by natural selection you can have infinite complexity from infinite diversity through infinite combinations. NOT Intelligent Design. — Arakish

I have a very good layman's understanding of the Theory of Evolution and genetics to make that statement. I shall be the first to admit I ain't no expert, but my knowledge is evidently infinite compared to jnv3.

And another of my sayings:

Searching for knowledge and learning is what it means to be human instead of a religious robot being force fed the data. There is no shame in being self-taught, seeking knowledge and learning. The only shame is not seeking in the first place.

rmfr

EDIT: fixed blockquote tag

Sheldon's picture
"He just cannot grasp that

"He just cannot grasp that nature creates NO codes. Us humans apply the codes, letters, words, names, etc. to provide a framework in order to better understand the complexities of nature."

Precisely, and of course this would make all codes natural anyway, certainly in the sense he is applying the word natural here, since they are derived from a product of evolution namely humans.

What we have no evidence for and he has failed to demonstrate any evidence for is any intelligence that creates codes outside of The natural material universe.

He is and has been from the start using argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies, or God of the gaps arguments to try and reverse the burden of proof. Implying firstly that DNA is a code, and secondly that it couldn't occur naturally.

Of course when he's asked to evidence this last assertion he can't, but can onlycrepeat his argument from ignorance fallacy by challenging anyone to fulkyvevidence how DNA originated. Hence a gap in scientific knowledge he's trying to insert his fictional deity into.

A clear example of irrational such arguments are is tgat you can replace his deity with literally anything and the arguments can't rationally be any less valid. This means if it were valid it would literally evidence anything you wanted it to.

Intelligence is required to create codes, human intelligence didn't create DNA. Therefore it required a greater intelligence, therefore omniscient Pixies created DNA.

Not very compelling is it, but try getting him understand the argument is no different rationally if you change Pixies to a deity. It's still can argument from ignorance fallacy either way.

Sheldon's picture
J N Vanderbilt III, have you

J N Vanderbilt III, have you come up with a single example of a code yet that isn't a product of the natural material universe?

Can you demonstrate any objective evidence for anything more than the natural physical universe.

J N Vanderbilt III's picture
Sheldon, the sequences ARE

Sheldon, the sequences ARE the code, you seem to ignore also that these sequences are arbitrary not just chemistry, and replete w decoding apparatus. What other then intel is capable of this?

xenoview's picture
@jnv3

@jnv3
Are you saying that god created life? If so, what objective evidence do you have that god is real?

Sheldon's picture
I've ignored nothing, it was

I've ignored nothing, it was your OP and I answrted it precisely, as have many others. No surprise you've ignored the answers as they're not the goddidit with magic assumption you're looking for.

"What other then intel is capable of this?"

I don't know what you mean, but if you're bas8ng any assertion on not knowing this answer, then by definition that is argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Now...what objective evidence can you demonstrate that anything more than the physical material universe exists?

Can you cite a single example of a code created outside of that natural material universe, and demonstrate objective evidence for the claim with a precise and detailed explanation how you claim this happened.

You still don't seem to grasp that disbelieving your completely unevidenced assertion for a supernatural deity creating everything using unexplained magic, is not a claim or assertion.

Atheism is the lack of a belief in a deity or deities, it is not an opposite belief or claim.

Science only asserts as valid what it can objectively demonstrate empirical evidence to support.

The existence of the natural material universe, that all living things evolved, the existence of evolved intelligent or sentient animals including human animals, the existence of purely natural phenomena, these are all objective facts.

Codes are just a human concept, as arakish has explained multiple times. They're no more objectively real than other human concepts like money, we create these things as tools to help us understand and function in the reality of the material world and universe.

If we don't knowing something exists as it does, then rationalky we can assert nothing from this ignorance.

Avant Brown's picture
The OP cites a code that is

The OP cites a code that is created by nature, and then says their point is that codes are only created by intelligence and not by nature.

I think this comment from page 1 reveals how ironically delicious the OP is.

One can tell the OP probably didn't think things through nearly thoroughly as one may think things through.

Sheldon's picture
Humans create codes, humans

Humans create codes, humans evolved like all living things, as part of nature. Ipso facto codes occur as part of the natural material world. Complexity abounds within nature and evolution has produced it again and again. There is no evidence that evolution is anything but a purely natural and insentient phenomenon.

The thread OP is yet another argument from ignorance fallacy, a God of the gaps polemic, pointing to an ostensible gap in our knowledge and implying a deity must be in there HIDING. It seems theists are not the least phased with all the other gaps like lightning tsunamis earthquakes intelligent animals like humans etc etc that it already tried and failed to locate any deity in.

Every time we understand how somethingworks it is always a purely natural phenomenon. Not once has supernatural causation turned out to be remotely evidenced or valid. The best theists can do is point at things we dont fully understand and exclaim aha! Goddidit...movingtheir claim each time the gap is closed and no deity is revealed.

Sheldon's picture
Once again here is the

Once again here is the original claim from the OP:

J N Vanderbilt III
"The point here is that codes are ONLY created by intelligence."

You mean humans, unless of course you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a single code created by an intelligence other than human?

So humans create codes. Is that your point all along? If so I concur. Anything else is fallacious assumption.

J N Vanderbilt III's picture
Sheldon

Sheldon
sequences are not a man made construct, you don’t like to call them codes as in your word play.
Fact is ,order of nucleotides is arbitrary and you have no explanation for them

I also see you stating evolution as a fact, and this is something you’ve observed?

arakish's picture
@ jnv3

@ jnv3

"I also see you stating evolution as a fact, and this is something you’ve observed?"

I have. But you shall ignore this like the childish, spoiled brat you are. And I still say you are liar. Caught you lying about me and that is why you are pissed at me. Childish, spoiled brat.

I saw this animal first appear about 20 to 25 years ago. But you probably won't remember it since you weren't even born yet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/05/science/mutant-crayfish-clones-europe.html

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/self-cloning-mutant-crayfish-are-taking-over-europe-but-really-no-big-deal

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/attack-of-the-crayfish-clones/552236/

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
I have called codes codes

I have called them codes from the start, so this latest lie is as baffling as the rest of your verbiage? The post you're responding to has the word code in at least 4 times?

"Fact is ,order of nucleotides is arbitrary and you have no explanation for them"

Correct but moot, since I never claimed to have an explanation for them, what's your point?

"I also see you stating evolution as a fact, and this is something you’ve observed?"

Learn to read then, as I said scientific fact, and science has observed evolution yes, and you havve been given multiple links to the research.

Did you observe a deity create everything/ How about virgin births, or resurrection of Jesus, did you observe any of those? Nice double standard you are creating.

Species evolution through natural selection is an objective scientific fact, denying this in light of the scientific evidence is no different to the denials and claims of flat earthers.

Now one more time as you keep ignoring it:

Once again here is the original claim from the OP:

J N Vanderbilt III
"The point here is that codes are ONLY created by intelligence."

You mean humans, unless of course you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a single code created by an intelligence other than human?

So humans create codes. Is that your point all along? If so I concur. Anything else is fallacious assumption.

Sheldon's picture
ME: "You mean humans, unless

ME: "You mean humans, unless of course you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a single **code created by an intelligence other than human?" So humans create **codes. Is that your point all along? If so I concur. Anything else is fallacious assumption."

J N Vanderbilt III "sequences are not a man made construct, you don’t like to call them codes as in your word play.
Fact is ,order of nucleotides is arbitrary and you have no explanation for them"

Baffling? I quite specifically said codes, and you mention sequences, then lie that I am playing word games? It was a verbatim quote from your OP as well?

Humans absolutely create codes, so all in all your post is dishonest gibberish.

J N Vanderbilt III's picture
What ever I saw above,

What ever I saw above, totally ignored, waste of time
No se comunicará

arakish's picture
jnv3: "What ever I saw above,

jnv3: "What ever I saw above, totally ignored, waste of time"

Only problem is once seen, always seen. If I told you not to think of elephants, the first thing you do is think elephant.

Είσαι ψεύτης

rmfr

xenoview's picture
@jnv3

@jnv3
Since you have avoided my questions about objective evidence for god, that means your god is not real.

Sheldon's picture
Once again here is the

Once again here is the original claim from the OP:

J N Vanderbilt III
"The point here is that codes are ONLY created by intelligence."

You mean humans, unless of course you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a single code created by an intelligence other than human?

So humans create codes. Is that your point all along? If so I concur. Anything else is fallacious assumption.

Ignore it all you want, it's what creatards always do when their verbiage is challenged, I have come to expect nothing else. You ignoring it is precisely the point I wanted to make.

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