"Higher power" as mentioned in Alcoholic Anonymous

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Great hope's picture
"Higher power" as mentioned in Alcoholic Anonymous

Hello all and Happy pi day 3.14

My question is, what is this "higher power" mentioned about in the second best selling book in the world, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)? Scattered throughout the book they ellude to God. Assuming that people will know that they are talking about something that could and would change their lives, if it were sought. Now I've seen first hand what people's lives has turned into because of addiction. No one signs up to be a homeless drug addict turning tricks and sexual favors for just 1 more hit. Is there not something more going on than just chemical reactions? I have witnessed hundreds of seemingly hopeless cases go through a transformation due to a spiritual reformation. There are countess millions of these stories from all over the world. Not to mention the "real ones" who have had experiences of God through out time. So can we conclude that this is a wide spread delusion that provides incredible and undeniable results? Or is there something more going on here than meets the eye? Because it really seems impossible that a couple of Alcoholics got together and wrote a 164 page book on God. And within 70 years it became the second best selling book on the planet, second only to the Bible? Freeing millions from some kind of spiritual slavery. It would be hard to say that something wasn't giving them Devine help. It was never about book sales or religion, it is a message that frees people from bondage. What "power" can do such things?

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LogicFTW's picture
@Great Hope

@Great Hope

Do your research. Or it is going to get torn apart.

Obviously "higher power" refers to a god. They just rephrase it so they can capture more readers, and remain vague instead of specific. (A common apologist tatic!)

AA and even secular based alcohol treatment programs like AA have rather abysmal long term success rates. Sadly there is not really a alcohol treatment program that works. It is my experience, dealing with alcoholics and other types of addicts, that no program in the world can really help or change someone, until that person is truly ready to change, and for the long term.

Also the "bible" being the best selling book is only partially true. That is if you include all the various different versions of it and say it is one book. They also often times do not even "sell" the book. For many years you could find a free bible to keep whenever you like at motel room.

As a single book with a single author/editor harry potter books outsold any particular version of the bible by quite a lot during the years they were released.

For every story of success from breaking an alcohol addiction long term there is at least 2-3 stories of failure, NOT a good metric.

 
 

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Great hope's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

Yes the success rate is very low, even though the solution is right in front of them, which almost makes it seem like it's in our make up, to not go to God, until God is all we have left?
What kind of work do you do that deals with alcoholics another types of addicts?

LogicFTW's picture
@Great hope

@Great hope

I stated: "It is my experience, dealing with alcoholics and other types of addicts"

I apologize, if my writing led to the wrong interpretation, I do not deal with addicts on a professional level, except maybe in a vague way, social media and computer/internet addictions. I was talking about experience from family members, friends, myself, and reading a whole lot about addiction.

I do cyber security crisis management almost exclusively now for work so obviously not very professionally experienced in addiction.

There is a really good ted talks about addiction I can link you if you are interested that is about 10 minutes long and even has some humour in it.

 
 

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Great hope's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

Yes please send me the links, I would like to watch those.

LogicFTW's picture
Here is a good one to start:

Here is a good one to start:

Tedx "Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong | Johann Hari"

https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs

This one kind of turns the common perception of addiction on its head.

 
 

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Cognostic's picture
LogicFTW: Awsome video.

LogicFTW: Awsome video. How do we get people to spend their time "involved in life" and not spending all their times using drugs. I have always hated the disease model and find a model of compulsion much easier to work with. Convincing someone who "has a disease" and therefore "no control and no responsibility" that they do have responsibility and control is an uphill battle. Awesome treatment program and thanks for the info. I have been doing this with addicts for years with addicts. This fits perfectly into my library!!!!

LogicFTW's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

Thanks, this is one of those videos that I feel everyone should watch. Just about all of us deal with addiction or a family/friend member fighting addiction. I even shared this video with a few doctors (got a couple of doctors in my extended family and one of them even works with addicts a lot.) All of the folks I shared this with and I got feedback from agree this video brings a lot of important ideas to the table.

And yes, getting people involved in life, making good social connections etc I think is very important to anyone, but especially those struggling with destructive addictions.

 
 

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David Killens's picture
Thank you for the video Logic

Thank you for the video Logic FTW.

Now I understand a little more and can see how some elements of AA work.

For example, there is no moral judgement in AA meetings, just support. And a good part of the 12 steps is accountability and understanding that the individual must do most of the hard work. And they preach "keep busy" because idle times lead in the wrong direction.

Great hope's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

Wow thank you so much for that video. I'm going to watch that several times over. Do you have any other videos?

LogicFTW's picture
I will dig through my notes

I will dig through my notes for other stand out alcohol/addiction videos that I liked and share them here, take a little bit, hopefully I can link them by the end of the day today.

 
 

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Sapporo's picture
According to the rationalwiki

According to the rationalwiki page on Alcoholics Anonymous, attending one of their courses actually significantly increases the risk of binge drinking compared to a control group. The Holy Spirit is the last thing they need.

Cognostic's picture
@Sapporo: Yep. There are

@Sapporo: Yep. There are more drinks being served in the parking lot of an AA meeting than there are at the local bar.

Take a moment and try not to think about pink elephants. Think about not wanting to think about pink elephants. When you think about a pink elephant, think about ridding your mind of thoughts about pink elephants. Trying not to think about pink elephants is the exact same thing as thinking about pink .elephants. The AA member ends up thinking more about his or her drinking behavior and this can increase cravings. Successful members find that their life changes from revolving around drinking to revolving around AA. Substituting one compulsive behavior for another.

David Killens's picture
Most definitely Cognostic.

Most definitely Cognostic. Additionally, all they think about is alcohol 24/7. Go to an AA meeting, all they talk about is drinking. Read their books, it is all about drinking.

One mantra of AA is that you could fall off the wagon any second without warning. So the thought process is to be thinking 24/7 about how to avoid drinking.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Great hope - ...it really

Great hope - ...it really seems impossible that a couple of Alcoholics got together and wrote a 164 page book on God. And within 70 years it became the second best selling book on the planet...

Not impossible when you realize: people is dumb.

Great hope's picture
@Nyarlathotep Lol very true

@Nyarlathotep

Lol very true

David Killens's picture
When Bob Wilson and Bob Smith

When Bob Wilson and Bob Smith became co-founders of AA, they chanced on a formula that was more psychological than divine. Yes, there is the constant god reference, but considering the era when AA was founded, that is no surprise. But what matters is that AA is a support group, no one is alone and everyone has a "sponsor", someone who had successfully navigated the perils of addiction. Additionally, there is the 12 steps, which is basically an honest moral inventory, acknowledgment of responsibility, and planned progress.

There is a reward system (one year coins, etc) and tolerance. If you do fall off the wagon, no one will judge you or shun you. In fact the opposite happens, everyone close by will rally in support.

The AA movement, despite it's poor rehabilitation record (it is no better than any other modern treatment for addiction) has attempted to keep pace with the times. Modern medicine has proven what AA preached, that addiction is a disease, not a moral failing. But these days, when you press on defining "higher power" in AA, the term applies more to the group effort and record of AA than a sky fairy. The AA program also includes education on behaviors and the chemical effects on the brain.

The AA "Big Book" is definitely influential and has sold many copies. But that number has reached just over 40 million, large, but not exactly the second highest number in the world. The Lord of the Rings has sold over 150 million copies. Heck, Spock sold 50 million with his book "The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care".

arakish's picture
Q: My question is, what is

Q: My question is, what is this "higher power" mentioned about in the second best selling book in the world, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)?

A: God of the Bible without saying it is the God of the Bible.

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
Oh for fuck sake..... Here we

Oh for fuck sake..... Here we go again with amorphous nonsense.

1. '\what is this "higher power"? You don't know. I don;t know and They don't know.

2. BEST SELLING BOOK: Argument ad Populaum. How many people believe in nonsense is no indication that the nonsense is true.

3. The book changes lives: Demonstrable lie. AA has no more of a success rate than any other program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjItc3_wHxM

4. "No one signs up to be a homeless drug addict turning tricks and sexual favors for just 1 more hit." BULLSHIT! Using drugs is a choice. Refusing to use drugs is a choice. Every druggie who ever stopped using drugs did so because they chose to do so.

5. "the "real ones" who have had experiences of God " It's not real unless there is an experience of God. A. Personal experience is not a foundation for belief in god. If it were aliens, Bigfoot, Crystal Magic, Pyramid Power, and the Stork would all be true as well. You do not get to assert a god into existence.

6. "So can we conclude that this is a wide spread delusion that provides incredible and undeniable results?" NO YOU CAN NOT. AA has no better statistics than any other program. You can only conclude that when people want to stop drinking, they can do it, regardless of the method they use.

7. "So can we conclude that this is a wide spread delusion that provides incredible and undeniable results? " NO. We can conclude it is a widespread delusion that the legal system has bought into. That's why they refer people to AA. AA is also free and people can fail as many times as they like. In recent years the courts have been sued for recommending AA only under separation of Church and State. AA is a Religiously Based Program. These programs work every bit as well as AA.. Life Ring, SOS, Moderation Management, Aversion Therapy, and there are many more. All with the same effectiveness rating as AA.

8. "Because it really seems impossible that a couple of Alcoholics got together and wrote a 164 page book on God. And within 70 years it became the second best selling book on the planet." It does not seem impossible at all. If the Blue book was not the most popular then the next best selling book would be the most popular. This is a completely inane comment. And lets not take into account that from the 1950's on, every court in America was referring people to AA programs for any and all alcohol related offenses. The numbers are artificially inflated by the American legal system,

9. " It would be hard to say that something wasn't giving them Divine help." Not hard to say at all. "No one is getting Divine help." No one gets divine help until you prove the divine exists.

10. " it is a message that frees people from bondage. " You have it backwards. It is a message that some people who want to be free from their addictions, use to help them get free. If you want to be free of addiction, anything that helps to motivate you is a good thing, People quit drinking for all sorts of reasons.

*Teaching people they are helpless and being overtaken by a disease can do more harm than good. This is especially true in cases where people have given up hope or have self esteem issues. Pulling them out of this "helplessness" becomes a task as difficult as getting them to deal with their drinking behavior.

More inane assertions by our good Friend GH. Now get ready for all the presupposition bullshit. God exists because of AA. HORSESHIT! When your god starts growing back limbs then we will all be impressed. People stop drinking every day and they do it WITHOUT YOUR ASSHOLE GOD.

Great hope's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjItc3_wHxM"

Penn lied, that was not a rock

Cognostic's picture
Great hope: "That was not a

Great hope: "That was not a rock," Unless of course he is using your logic. "Believing is seeing." Sorry, I gave you the short version of Penn and Teller. The longer version busts all sorts of myths. Still the video posted by Logic was more up to date and every bit as good. This is not the full show; however, it points out official statistics and court mandated participation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakGeF4wI3s

arakish's picture
LogicFTW: "For every story of

LogicFTW: "For every story of success from breaking an alcohol addiction long term there is at least 2-3 stories of failure, NOT a good metric."

Are you sure it is that high? 25-33%? I heard it has a 15% success rate at best.

rmfr

LogicFTW's picture
@arakish

@arakish
Yeah, I could not be arsed to google and post the actual statistic (if it is even available.) I just know it is at very best 25% long term success but likely much (MUCH!) worse. Hence the "at least" part of my statement.

I believe AA and most others also approach it as: "always addicts" which I do agree with, so the measurement should more be: how often do people relapse, and I would say that number approaches 90-95 percent, perhaps higher.

It has been further shown that AA (and other similar programs) has only a little bit to do with success, and the person everything. What I mean by this is: if say someone had something bad happen a year ago, then started drinking heavily, then realizes they have a drinking problem and voluntarily go to AA, (or others,) have a great chance of overcoming their addiction and not later relapsing.

But someone that has been drinking increasingly more for decades and only went to AA because family or worse the judge (DUI) forced them to go the chances of an alcoholic bringing their alcohol under control is abysmal, (maybe 5%) especially if they already done something like AA before and already relapsed (talking a guess of 1%)

I personally had a problem of binge drinking at parties when I was in college, but that was only maybe a dozen nights of the year and I stopped that entirely by my 4th year in college. (I also lost a lot of interest once alcohol was legally available to me on my 21st birthday, it just wasn't rebellion anymore.) I got lucky and did not get addicted.

 
 

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Cognostic's picture
AA does not post statistics.

AA does not post statistics. 25% sorry no. 6% at best. ", 24 percent were sober for one to five years, and 31 percent were sober for under a year. Of course, those don’t take into account the large number of alcoholics who never make it through their first year of meetings, subsequently never completing the 12 steps (the definition of success, by AA’s standards)." You have to look at all the failures.

Of people who lasted 5 years in the program 24% were successful. That's not saying much for any kind of success rate.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failur...

arakish's picture
@ Logic and Cog

@ Logic and Cog

Yeah. I have to admit the two years I spent doing literally nothing more than drinking and drugging has made me an addict. However, in the 15 years since AND the decades before family's death, I have used less alcohol and drugs than I did in those 2 years. However, I shall be the very first one to admit that I would love to have marijuana to smoke whenever I wanted it, and not just because of the glaucoma and mental problems it helps to relieve.

However, I also have too much "life" that I am in touch with to actually do that. The only times I really want to smoke is dealing with the imbeciles that post here from time to time.

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
arakish: Makes me think I am

arakish: Makes me think I am one of the lucky ones. I dislike drinking and pot. I have never enjoyed being high with one exception. I loved mushrooms. I could not use them every day and that is just a fact. But taking a weekend, going to the coast or the mountains, and spending a day or an evening buzzed, would be a mini vacation. I did come from a family of alcoholics. Father, brother and sister. I guess I turned out like my mom and just don't like the stuff. Never have.

Cognostic's picture
6% at best. I promise. I

6% at best. I promise. I have worked in the field 30 years. Watch the Penn and Taylor video. AA does not keep success statistics. The 25% comes from people who have stayed 5 years or longer. If you can stay 5 years you will have a 25% success of staying off alcohol. 75% of people who stay off alcohol for 5 years will return to drinking. It is not 25% of everyone. AA LIES WITH STATISTICS.

Nyarlathotep's picture
AA grossly inflates their

AA grossly inflates their success rates, by not sampling (not counting) people who drop out of the program. It is one of the simplest examples of lying by statistics I can think of. People is dumb.

David Killens's picture
Great Hope, you are referring

Great Hope, you are referring to the AA "Big Book" which is not about divinity but personal stories and anecdotal tales.

You really need to do some research, you have so much wrong. the Big Book is not that huge in sales, religion is secondary to treatment, and any cure requires more support and hard work than anything divine.

Please remember that when one is down and out, and IF they finally cast aside the denial, success has a higher probability with or without anything divine. The individual has decided even before reading the Big Book or The 12 Steps that they will turn their lives around.

Great hope's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens

Yes, I have admitted that I'm ill prepared, uneducated and don't really know why I've come here and it's definitely out of character. I should have just said, AA has sold a lot of books (screenshot provided) I'm the experience guy. Not the knowledge guy. So just think about how hard y'all might have gone in the knowledge direction, I've gone equally in the experience direction. If God does exist, then it's given us witnessing as the tool. Coming here has helped me more with that tool than you know, and I really do thank you all so much for being willing and patient with me. I've aways been keen to my inspirations. And through the strangest inspirations, I've been led here. "God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise" lol. It's funny because none of us know the solid answer on either side *hopeful chuckles* but one day we will definitely find out. I'm just wondering is there really something that people can tap into, like maybe God, and experience results? Or is it a delusion? It seems like any and all possibilities of God existing is completely non-negotiable. Unless God Himself goes outside of it's design and comes over for dinner at your house. Rendering the hearts choice to nonexistent. So you'll go to the grave denying the living God because you won't believe what some roughneck hillbilly said about seeking fully for yourself? Remembering that the choice has been designed by faith before presence? So it's impossible for me to be offended or be "pinned down". I'm not asking anyone to believe me, for this is not my message. I'm wondering what you tell yourself to be ok with expecting God to do it your way, and wondering why you don't see the results? Dang it David, I start out just wanting to shortly answer, but then it just rolls out like this. Forgive me once again, but just think for more than half of a second. If God does exist and I've been called to witness? My inspiration for coming here is not misplaced. And as some of the comments here has said nothing will work until the person is ready to change. Also applies to belief in anything. Since God has an order to it? Would you be able know, if something was blocking you from seeing it, or being ready to do it? Regardless of what you might know or feel? The infamous Proverbs 3:5 *ugh*facepalm* "acknowledge God in all your ways and your path shall be made straight" wow what a claim for an individual to do? I wonder if it works?

@Sheldon
For sharting unicorns sake, I'm terribly sorry, again. But this is all "we" believers have been given to work with. And as you have made it clear that you don't like the way we talk, write, act, ect Infinitum. And no one has, or ever will have, anything about what you expect God to do "for Sheldon" to declare it's presence. We get it. You don't like God's order, therefore it can not possibly exist -Sheldons Razor

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Cognostic's picture
1. " It's funny because none

1. " It's funny because none of us know the solid answer on either side *hopeful chuckles* but one day we will definitely find out." And even so, the rest of us are not making inane assertions. We simply admit that we don't know and when you PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR SILLY IDEAS, then we will consider them.

2. "Rendering the hearts choice to nonexistent." Hearts do not make choices, they pump blood. Biology 101.

3. "So you'll go to the grave denying the living God " No one has to deny a fantasy that has not been proved. YOU HAVE NOT PROVED THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD. No God has ever been proved to exist. "Denial" has nothing to do with anything. PROVE YOUR ASSERTION AND WE WILL ALL BELIEVE.

4. "Remembering that the choice has been designed by faith before presence? " ANOTHER INANE ASSERTION: Faith "the evidence of things not seen." HORSESHIT!!! There is no assertion or assumption that can not be believed on faith. Muslims have faith, Buddhists have faith, Breatharians have faith, YOUR FAITH IS AS MISPLACED AS THEIRS WITHOUT EVIDENCE FOR YOU CONCLUSION.

5, "If God does exist and I've been called to witness? " Then you are doing a SHIT JOB. Why don't you go away, pray for a bit, and then come back with something God really wants you to say. Surely he will not sound like an idiot! He will be able to articulate a single sentence that will convince all of us. Why do you insist on making your God look like a moron with your inane attempt at explaining him? Go get the information from him and then get back to us.

6. " And as some of the comments here has said nothing will work until the person is ready to change. Even AA asserts this. "You must hit bottom before you will be ready to change." AA was designed to feed on the broken down and out of luck. (JUST LIKE ALL RELIGIONS) It feeds on the poor and down trodden. It steps in and takes credit for any improvement and does not count the failures --- Hey! JUST LIKE RELIGIONS.

7. You should think about visiting a small island off the coast of India. I hear there are some people there who could really use the word of God.

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