"Higher power" as mentioned in Alcoholic Anonymous

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Great hope's picture
@Talyyn

@Talyyn

I'm not assuming. That's what they have literally told me lol. The Creator and Giver of Life can use any avenue to reach who is willing. So I'm not surprised to see that different people get different experiences, throughout all time. Here is the silly thing, we will never be in a position to expect God to do anything lol it's crazy to even think. "Expectation is the root of all heartache" and will kill every miracle. It's the easiest block to see.

In Spirit's picture
@Great Hope

@Great Hope

As I have stated before I am neither an atheist nor a theist. Where you and I differ is only in what God is. To you it is the Creator and Giver of Life to me it is something else. Perhaps we can discuss that, only if it interests you. I agree with everything else you made in your statement above. Have you ever had Paranormal Experiences? Visions? Apparitions? Intuition or as others call it and I don't like the word I will say because of it's negative connotations but that word being Psychic? I wonder what atheists and theists make of these things and how they explain it?

arakish's picture
In Spirit: "As I have stated

In Spirit: "As I have stated before I am neither an atheist nor a theist."

You seem to continue to confuse atheist and theist. If you do NOT believe the claims of a deity, then you are atheist. If you believe in a deity, you are a theist. It matters not how you define your god, if you believe in it, YOU ARE A THEIST. Period. Exclamation Point!

rmfr

In Spirit's picture
@arakish

@arakish

Please tell me how to define this. I am not sure how to determine where my choice really fits.

Box A: I believe in the creator as stated in theism (theism) Not my box
Box B: I do not believe in a deity (atheism) Not my box
Box C: I do believe in another intelligent life form that interacts with mankind and our world. My box

LogicFTW's picture
@In Spirit

@In Spirit

Have not seen arakish respond yet so I will answer for ya.

Sounds like you are agnostic (you don't know) with some atheist (you do not believe in gods) and you also are "I believe in another intelligent life form that interacts with mankind and our world" Also do realize, bacteria and viruses etc could fit that definition as these tiny beings do influence human behavior, greatly they are just not what you could describe as intelligent, but perhaps there is a group intelligence to them we are not aware of, and since they influence us humans and our thoughts they sort of have their own intelligence by influencing our intelligence.

I am guessing you also believe in some sort of aliens. Let me tell you that the vast size and distances of space make that quite unlikely.

In Spirit's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

Thanks for your reply. I was worried that my inadequate explanation of life form might lead someone to state that intelligent life may be something as simple as bacteria. Mia culpa for that.

Some sort of alien is more to my belief. I am no scientist and cannot speak of it in scientific terms so just bear with me as I try to explain it in the only way I know how.

It is visible. It has a human form but is clearly not human. It communicates telepathically. It does not claim to be our creator. It comes from a species that sees everything objectively. In other words, everything just is, make nothing more of it. It seems like it can be touched and at the same time it seems like it can't be touched.

Before I go any further, when you said " I am guessing you also believe in some sort of aliens. Let me tell you that the vast size and distances of space make that quite unlikely." Do you mean that aliens don't exist and that it is impossible that they do. If yes, can you expand on that statement. If that is what you are claiming how would you explain UFO sightings and alien sightings?

arakish's picture
@ In Spirit

@ In Spirit

It is visible. It has a human form but is clearly not human. It communicates telepathically. It does not claim to be our creator. It comes from a species that sees everything objectively. In other words, everything just is, make nothing more of it. It seems like it can be touched and at the same time it seems like it can't be touched.

Damn, Dude. You just described me. Just look at my avatar/picture of ME. As for seeming to be touched, yet cannot, well, I only come out the forest in the backyard to make a post. Otherwise, I am lost to you in the forest.

rmfr

LogicFTW's picture
@In Spirit

@In Spirit

It comes from a species that sees everything objectively.

To me that would be a major intelligence handicap, humans ability to think non objectively and hypothesize from non objective thoughts is actually really important for creativity and therefore discovery. Now a person or an intelligent being that has highly refined ability to spot subjective and objective that could be useful. Actually a perfect example of that to me has to do with "intelligent alien life" which I will get into below.

Do you mean that aliens don't exist and that it is impossible that they do.

Actually I think it is very likely somewhere out there in the vast observable and beyond there is intelligent life right now that could be quite a bit more advanced than our, (humans,) own intelligence. But I think due to the vastness and distances involved, they have never visited earth, or are even aware of humans. Even if aliens had a way to travel/communicate at one thousand times the speed of light the distances are too vast, and earth would be the proverbial needle in a haystack a haystack that is the size of our planet or greater. If an intelligent alien being possessed the capability to travel nearly instantly over just about any distance, and the tech/ability to find the needle in the haystack, I think it would be roughly the equivalent of a human looking for and caring about one ant, hidden somewhere in all the ant hills on earth. We would be so crudely "beneath" these aliens they would not even give us a 2nd look if they happened to notice us.

If that is what you are claiming how would you explain UFO sightings and alien sightings?

As stated above, that is not what I am saying, but let me address "alien" sightings. Beyond the incredible vastness of space problem. A few blurry pictures, and testimonials with zero evidence is easy to dismiss, as they should be. Like you would, would you give me a million bucks for a dark blurry video of some streak of lights and possible alien craft? Of course not, even if you had a million you could give me. To easy to fake. To easy to mistake it for something else, etc.

Additonally lets think about an alien sighting logically. An alien (or a bunch of them) have the incredible tech to travel great distances travelling trillions up trillions of miles, and they want to remain hidden, yet a guy with a video camera can catch them? Or they may capture a person (to probe em or something? I dunno I don't believe in any of it!) then let them go with their memory intact, trusting that no one would believe them? First you say these aliens are much smarter then us, but then like a bad/new criminal they leave all kinds of evidence of their passing even though they are supposedly trying to remain hidden? I am not an advanced alien and I could do a better job of hiding myself. What is it? The alien juvenile/kid stole their dads interstellar warp drive spaceship and did a drive by on us dumb primates here on earth? Wouldn't that make the "dad alien" kind of an idiot for letting that happen?

David Killens's picture
In Spirit, the maximum speed

In Spirit, the maximum speed of communication is the speed of light. So I shall describe distances as light-years.

This Milky Way galaxy we are part of is approximately 100,000 light years in diameter. If you could travel at the speed of light and started a journey at one end of the Milky Way, it would take you 100,000 years to arrive at the other side.

This human species has been transmitting signals (began as radio) in 1900. So we have been sending our own transmissions out into the void for 119 years. So our little circle of transmission is 119 out of 100,000 in relationship to the Milky Way. Basically we have only been able to reach out (and listen) to a very tiny fraction of just this Milky Way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy7NzjCmUf0

Cognostic's picture
Define your Life Form.

Define your Life Form. Alien? Mind without a body? The Force?

Why is it intelligent?
What makes you think it is a life form?
Where is this interaction you speak of?

Can you demonstrate any of this or will you just make more inane assertions without facts or evidence?

In Spirit's picture
@Cognistic

@Cognistic

First of all I've been accused of hijacking this thread so please do not partake in it for they might accuse you as well.
Second, when I am ready for the debate I will post it properly as my own thread
Third, I need time to postulate it and in a way that satisfies everyone.

Patience

Cognostic's picture
Sounds right to me. See you

Sounds right to me. See you in the funny papers.

arakish's picture
@ In Spirit

@ In Spirit

“@arakish

Please tell me how to define this. I am not sure how to determine where my choice really fits.

Box A: I believe in the creator as stated in theism (theism) Not my box
Box B: I do not believe in a deity (atheism) Not my box
Box C: I do believe in another intelligent life form that interacts with mankind and our world. My box”

Oxygen deprivation?

rmfr

EDIT: included blockquote due to not seeing other replies

In Spirit's picture
Incomplete sentence. Without

Incomplete sentence. Without meaning. No rational response.

Has it left you that speechless? Nothing intelligent to say?

arakish's picture
@ In Spirit

@ In Spirit

Incomplete sentence. Without meaning. No rational response.

Has it left you that speechless? Nothing intelligent to say?

Hardly. I was stating a possibility about your preposterous claim.

rmfr

In Spirit's picture
@arakish

@arakish

Boring....why waste your breath. I prefer intelligent thinkers and speakers

arakish's picture
@ In Spirit

@ In Spirit

No waste of breath. Typing. Intelligent thinkers have been hard to come by lately.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
"As I have stated before I am

"As I have stated before I am neither an atheist nor a theist. "

Asinine nonsense, you can't both not believe and not not believe something. You either believe a deity exists or you do not.

You have claimed to not be an atheist on your profile, thus by definition you are a theist.

"Have you ever had Paranormal Experiences? Visions? Apparitions? Intuition or as others call it and I don't like the word I will say because of it's negative connotations but that word being Psychic? I wonder what atheists and theists make of these things and how they explain it?"

Explain what, you've just made a claim, and offered no evidence or even any data to examine? It sounds like hokum nonsense to me, but by all means demonstrate your best evidence for any of that, though I'd be pretty surprised if it amounted to anything more than unevidenced anecdotal claims, and bare assertions, or appeal to governance fallacies where you simply assert your claim and challenge others to demonstrate an alternative, as you have done here.

Sheldon's picture
You've offered no evidence

You've offered no evidence for any deity, all you're doing is piling up assumptions, as usual. You ove to proselytise, but have zero interest in debate.

Answer me this, how does claiming a deity has influenced an outcome of an event or events evidence that deity if the outcome matches what you originally wished for?

You need to look up an explanation the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc, and the fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam.

...but only if you have any interest at all the objective truth, which if course you have shown time and again you do not.

Talyyn's picture
@Great Hope

@Great Hope

Most gods ever imagined are either self contradictory or are contradictory to each other, so why your god would be giving countless people different experiences that could have potentially fatal consequences?

And please, answer my precedent question honestly. Do not turn around.

I don't know what to say about you assertion that we are unwilling, would it be that since you could not convince us, you're resorting to that?

How could us having a lot of expectations, impairs the capacity of a supernatural entity to perform miracles right in front of us?

To finish, show an example of what you consider a miracle is?

Cognostic's picture
EVERYONE ON THE SITE KEEPS

EVERYONE ON THE SITE KEEPS TELLING YOU THE SAME THING!!!! WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN? HOW FRIGGING DENSE ARE YOU!!!

No one's mind is "made up" but yours. WE DO NOT HAVE CONCLUSIONS. The only person here that has made a conclusion is YOU! You have asserted "GOD DONE IT." All we ask is how you know this and what evidence can you present FOR YOUR CONCLUSION?

YOURS IS THE ONLY MIND THAT WAS MADE UP, LONG BEFORE YOU GOT HERE. HOW IS THAT NOT COMPLETELY OBVIOUS?

Sheldon's picture
It's Great Hope speak, you

It's Great Hope speak, you get used to it after a while, as it is often used by theists. Here I'll translate a few key terms:

"Atheists here have made up their minds"

This means, atheists here refuse to believe what I believe no matter how often I make the same specious and irrational claims.

"Atheists here keep demanding proof of a deity that no one can provide for any belief"

This means, I have no objective evidence for my beliefs so I will pretend the demands for it are unreasonable.

"Atheists themselves hold beliefs, so atheism is a religion"

This one speaks for itself, as atheists holding beliefs has no bearing whatsoever on the definitions of atheism. Anymore than atheists having fingers means atheism is defined as having fingers.

GH is impervious to facts and evidence, he's as closed minded a theist as I've ever encountered anywhere. As you say, and as he has admitted plainly more than once, his mind is made up and no amount of logic, or facts will turn him away from the belief he favours.

He has been asked again and again to present objective evidence for any deity, and can demonstrate nothing, has even admitted its impossible. QED

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: That was an

@Sheldon: That was an excellent interpretation. I'm sorry I didn't think of it first. Good Job!!!

David Killens's picture
@Great Hope

@Great Hope

When you clicked the button to enter this forum, was there ANY chance that debate within this forum would change your position on your beliefs? Please be honest.

John 8:[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Cognostic's picture
John 8:7 is a forgery. I

John 8:7 is a forgery. I would call a theist on it so I thought I would mention it here.

"There is general agreement that the verses from John 7:53 to John 8:11 were not written by the author or authors who wrote the rest of the gospel. There is little consensus as to exactly when the forgery was inserted."

"Around 4% of Greek manuscripts that include the passage place it in locations other than John 8:1-8:11; the earliest of these is from around the ninth and tenth centuries C.E. "

Just thought you might like to know.
http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2017/04/fake-story-john-87-let-an...

Great hope's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens

I was very curious to find information that anyone had to take a position of non-belief. I've asked to be sold on atheism. I've said I've tried to wear atheism. I've asked is it a confirmed delusion. I've let it bounce around in my head for almost 2 years now. If it is a delusion? I definitely want to know. But there is no help in that information being confirmed. It's just expectations not being met. Looking at the information and scoffing then balking. Instead of going straight for The Creator. And as much as you don't like the wager thing. One day we will find out that is a give in. So regardless of what you choose? It's a quite exciting gamble. This is a fact.

Also, from some of the responses. I've been told the conditions for belief to happen. Would include God to do something that we humans would like it to. And if God doesn't do that, then it's not there. That sounds like a mind made up to me.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Great hope - One day we will

Great hope - One day we will find out that is a [given].

You are exposing your own presuppositions here. If I'm right (god does not exist), then we won't be finding out. You assumption that we will find out, is just a thinly disguised assertion that god exists; in short: it is question begging.

Great hope's picture
@Nyarlathotep

@Nyarlathotep

Ya I've mentioned that before. That we won't find out if there is no God. I'm at work and didn't write it out completely. It's still a wager nonetheless. May I ask a question about faith? Why does scripture say that it is impossible to please God without faith? Why is it faith before presence?

arakish's picture
@ Great Hope

@ Great Hope

Why must I have faith to please god? Faith is the belief in things that cannot be substantiated.

rmfr

In Spirit's picture
@Great Hope

@Great Hope

Not sure if this is the response you're looking for.

Can Great Hope himself be satisfied if he had no faith in himself to achieve his own goals or his own will? Can Great Hope be complete if he had no faith in his God? Can Great Hope Achieve God's will without faith? How can you please God unless there is faith in God? How can you please someone in your life if you have no faith in them? How can someone in your life be satisfied if you have no faith in them? How can anyone be pleased without faith from someone else? Many have faith in you Great Hope. That's part of what keeps many of us alive and satisfied.

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