If God was real!

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Sapporo's picture
That doesn't make clear what

That doesn't make clear what you think wisdom is or why you think it's wise. That was the point of my previous comment, rewritten in the language of your latest comment.

Basing my worldview on someone else's without any reflection would be unwise. I cannot act better than my own standard - but that is better than thoughtlessly following others.

blinknight's picture
To quote Gregory House

To quote Gregory House "Either god isn't real or he's unimaginably cruel"

LogicFTW's picture
House MD is one of my

House MD is one of my favorite TV series, the character views and and lines on God are really well done. There is one episode that dives into Gregory House vs God really well.

Sheldon's picture
"House MD is one of my

"House MD is one of my favorite TV series"

I'm a huge fan, watching it right now as it happens.

arakish's picture
Sorry I'm late in posting

Sorry I'm late in posting this. House, MD is only one of the many, many complete TV series I own on DVD/BRay.

rmfr

calhais's picture
I've always like the argument

I've always like the argument by Descartes: this is (sad as it may seem) the best of all possible worlds, so even an omnipotent god can't realize anything better.

Sapporo's picture
I've always like the argument

I've always like the argument by Descartes: this is (sad as it may seem) the best of all possible worlds, so even an omnipotent god can't realize anything better.

Christianity refutes that by promising heaven.

calhais's picture
That follows only if heaven

That follows only if heaven is considered as `a world' in the same sense that what has yet been objectively observed is `a world,' but it is assumed that heaven and the observed world are `separate.' Ask if you don't get my meaning. That isn't really what Descartes meant by `world,' and he would have rejected those assumptions, just as he would have rejected the idea that the observed world, considered from a starting time point t_0 through a later time t_1, is a different world than the one starting from t_0 and continuing past t_1 to t_2. A good-faith reading of Descartes suggests that heaven is a continuation of the observed world as the future is the continuation of the present.

Sapporo's picture
calhais: That follows only if

calhais: That follows only if heaven is considered as `a world' in the same sense that what has yet been objectively observed is `a world,' but it is assumed that heaven and the observed world are `separate.' Ask if you don't get my meaning. That isn't really what Descartes meant by `world,' and he would have rejected those assumptions, just as he would have rejected the idea that the observed world, considered from a starting time point t_0 through a later time t_1, is a different world than the one starting from t_0 and continuing past t_1 to t_2. A good-faith reading of Descartes suggests that heaven is a continuation of the observed world as the future is the continuation of the present.

The conclusion that this is the best of all possible worlds that an omnipotent god could create is not a statement that comes from objective observation. It is just as much a theological statement as wondering why an omnipotent god that you believe in did not create heaven instead.

edit: corrected grammar

calhais's picture
And that is the correct

And that is the correct refutation.

Greensnake's picture
calhais,

calhais,

That's like saying that we can do nothing to improve the world. The elimination of a disease here, and the eradication of a nasty fly there must therefore make the world worse! Sorry, but I just don't find that very convincing!

calhais's picture
That's like saying that we

That's like saying that we can do nothing to improve the world.

Perhaps it's like saying that, but it isn't the same thing. It more closely resembles the claim that we can improve the world, but the world will only improve as much as we improve it.

Sheldon's picture
I agree, but I'm also not

I agree, but I'm also not sure I'd worship any being, and certainly not at it's own insistence. If a deity wanted me otherwise, then it should not have created me thus.

Searching for truth's picture
Reading the OP and some of

Reading the OP and some of these answers it occurred to me, that if God is real and could be proven by science or any other way, and let’s just assume it’s the god of the bible (to stick to the OP). Does it really matter if you worship him or not? The god of the bible has clearly given human beings free will to do what they want, and they are told what would happen if they chose to worship him and what would happen if they chose to deny/not worship him. So, assuming the god of the bible is 100% real, and 100% true, does it matter if you worship him or not? I mean at the end of the day “it’s your ass”, so to speak. And you already know the result of your actions/choices, at this point your personal opinions and feelings would be irrelevant, wouldn’t they?

Sapporo's picture
@Searching for truth it only

@Searching for truth it only matters in regards whether you should worship a being in return for a reward even though you know they intend to carry out torture on those who do not worship it.

Assuming that the god of Islam is 100% real, does it matter if you worship it or not? And why would this be a different question if we do not assume?

Tin-Man's picture
@Hulkster

@Hulkster

By golly, you make a damn fine point there, big guy. And here is a little something I would like to add to it. IF it is the god in the bible, then that god ALREADY KNOWS how you truly feel about it. Now, for those who already have a propensity to love and worship that god in a sincere manner, they are in the clear. No problems for them. But for those of us who are of a more "independent mindset" and totally disagree with how that god conducts itself, then what is the point in our worshipping it? That god would obviously know (Or, at least, it SHOULD know) we are not being sincere.

Let's take it a step further, however. It really doesn't matter in the slightest that we would know the consequences of not worshipping that god. Because that particular god supposedly already knows what will happen to us, regardless. And it even knew these things long before we ever came into existence. Therefore, it is already determined what will happen to us despite anything we may or may not ever do.

So, with that in mind, I absolutely refuse to spend what little time I have in my life groveling at the imaginary feet, or kissing the imaginary ass, of any one of the several thousand imaginary gods that have BEEN CREATED BY MAN over many, many centuries.

Searching for truth's picture
@tinamn

@tinamn

"IF it is the god in the bible, then that god ALREADY KNOWS how you truly feel about it. " yes, but, does the god of the Bible judge people based off their actions or what's in there heart? I really don't know for sure as I've heard both. For conversation sake, let's assume it's based off actions. Why not do what you can to save yourself In this temporary life for the sake of eternity? You could have ill feelings towards someone or something but, you don't have to act on it. I am sure you already do that everyday with certain things.

"But for those of us who are of a more "independent mindset" and totally disagree with how that god conducts itself, then what is the point in our worshipping it?" I would say to save yourself from "eternal damnation". What's the average lifespan today? 70?80? I'd give up those years for a guaranteed life of eternal pleasure

"Because that particular god supposedly already knows what will happen to us, regardless" True but, you don't. So you don't already know your fate so logically and selfishly I would try to do what's best for me.

"So, with that in mind, I absolutely refuse to spend what little time I have in my life groveling at the imaginary feet, or kissing the imaginary ass, of any one of the several thousand imaginary gods that have BEEN CREATED BY MAN over many, many centuries." I thought this coversetion was based off a hypothetical 100% true god of the Bible

LogicFTW's picture
Oy Vey!

Oy Vey!

The eternity in paradise/hell argument?

'sigh'

calhais's picture
It's called Pascal's Wager.

It's called Pascal's Wager. It's usually both presented and refuted in grossly oversimplified form. Wikipedia bears something resembling it.

arakish's picture
What is Pascal's Wager again?

What is Pascal's Wager again? I think I read about it many, many decades ago, but like all else that deals with anything religious, I have thrown it out as pure sewage.

rmfr

Tin-Man's picture
@Arakish Re: Pascal's

@Arakish Re: Pascal's Wager

Simply put, why take a chance by not believing in/worshipping god? Just to be on the safe side, believe in him/her/it and worship him/her/it to keep your ass out of the eternal furnace.

No doubt, though, you can easily figure out the obvious flaws in that "reasoning".

David Killens's picture
It's the Mormons, they got it

It's the Mormons, they got it right, everyone else will spend an eternity suffering.

Tin-Man's picture
@Hulkster

@Hulkster

Finally, a potentially interesting discussion. Cool. Got a couple of lumps on my forehead from nodding off and smacking the table while reading some of the other threads lately. *chuckle* Anyway...

1. Re: "yes, but, does the god of the Bible judge people based off their actions or what's in there heart?"

Well, that all depends on which one of the several thousand different sects you ask. And to be honest, even within my own denomination, that was one of those things that was never made clear to me. Really just depended on who I asked at any given moment, and whatever that individual's personal belief happened to be regarding the subject. Hell, and even that would often change depending on circumstances.

2. Re: Worship/Believe to save self from "eternal damnation"

Pascal's Wager. Nope. Waste of time. Actually tried that for a few years until I realized how ridiculous it is. Like I said many times already, the god I was taught already knows every...single....thought I will ever have in my entire life. And it knew this long before I was ever conceived. So, how exactly do you propose that I am suppose to "trick" this god by pretending to worship it simply to save my ass from burning? And, again, this god already knows my future REGARDLESS OF WHAT I DO. Matter of fact, every single thing I think, say, or do in my life was actually PLANNED by this god eons before I ever existed. Therefore, who is to say that I am not doing EXACTLY what god wants me to do? Shucks, as far as I know, I'm actually helping him to fulfill his "Perfect Plan" even as I type this post. Somebody prove me wrong. *chuckle*

3. Re: "I thought this coversetion was based off a hypothetical 100% true god of the Bible"

Yeah. Thought about that after posting it. I should have been more clear on that. Sorry. My bad. What I meant to say was...

"So, with that in mind, I absolutely refuse to spend what little time I have in my life worshipping an insecure egotistical bully of an entity that has already decided my fate long before I ever existed. And I sure as shit ain't gonna waste my time groveling at the imaginary feet, or kissing the imaginary ass, of any one of the several thousand imaginary gods that have BEEN CREATED BY MAN over many, many centuries."

Pretty sure there are a couple of other points I missed, but it is way past my bed time and I'm heading off to sleep. (To be continued...... Possibly.)

Sapporo's picture
@Searching for truth claims

@Searching for truth claims to follow an objective morality, but says they would worship a being that he disagrees with, just to get a reward.

He is worse than those who claims that without god, they would have no reason to do good.

arakish's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

Assume = Ass of u and me. I have said that before.

rmfr

xenoview's picture
Thank you for all the

Thank you for all the responses.

JoC's picture
This topic has been rahashed

This topic has been rahashed so many many times. I think everyone on here would agree that of the number of evil things in the Bible, there's got to be that one thing that's a cut above the rest. It may be best if we do just that one.

I would agree with you though that there are morally evil things in the Bible. Rape, murder, infanticide, slavery, etc. However, note that not everything recorded by the Bible is taught/endorsed by the Bible. Following that logic, a book recording the atrocities of World War 2 could actually be said to be endorsing war crimes, and the holocaust. Simply recording something doesn't mean it was taught as correct.

Sapporo's picture
@JoC

@JoC
The bible promotes the Flood and Hell as morally just.

Tin-Man's picture
@JoC Re: Atrocities in the

@JoC Re: Atrocities in the bible, "Simply recording something doesn't mean it was taught as correct."

Oh-dear-oh-dear-oh-dear... *wringing hands together worryingly*..... Considering I am not exactly known for being the "bible scholar" around here, I almost find it rather "awkward" that I am the one to point this out. But....

First of all, you are one hundred ten percent correct when you say there is a huge difference in recording something as opposed to teaching that same something to be "the right thing to do". Zero argument there. Spot on....... And to help you confirm that, allow me to offer an example....*deeeep breath*......*heavy sigh*.....

Example 1: (Recording an event for the sake of teaching)

God tells the story of a leader who gathers an army together and goes to another land to wipe out an entire race of people. He and his army kill thousands of men, women, and children, including most of the animals/livestock. And at the end of the story, God explains the reasons it would be wrong to do that.

Example 2: (What was actually taught to be correct.)

God COMMANDED that leader to go to that land and destroy/kill every living thing. (Men, women, children, infants, animals...) And that leader would be REWARDED by God by becoming a king. However, that leader ended up sparing a few people and animals during the attack. And...God... got.... pissed, because the leader did not kill EVERYTHING.

That story sound familiar to anybody? Hmmmm...... Actually, though, it is really just one of dozens of similar such stories where God actually orders/condones much worse.

So, yeah, once again, JoC, you are absolutely correct. Congratulations! There really IS a big difference in "just recording something" as opposed to teaching it to be correct. Love ya. Mean it. *smooch*

JoC's picture
Okay. So can we look into

Okay. So can we look into context as to where this came from? We're talking about when the Israelites were commanded by God to drive out (or in some translations, destroy) the Canaanites from the land. We're good on discussing just that?

Before we discuss anything further though, I'd like to see if we have any common ground on this. Is there any reason that would justify waging war on another nation? This idea of a "just war". To frame the question more so we don't stray too far off:

Would it be justified for one nation to wage war on another for morally abhorrent things being perpetrated by another nation? Examples would be slavery, genocide, or infanticide.

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