I'm askin' for it..

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James Buchanan's picture
Hating believers isn't

Hating believers isn't necessarily the central issue. Most people, when approached on a daily basis, are just people. The issue I have with Christians is their inability to keep their beliefs to themselves. Legislative impositions, social stigmatism, some cases of outright violence. The smug arrogance behind every declaration of "America is a Christian nation' while your leadership shits all over the founding principles on which this nation was founded...

Really, how could we possibly have an issue with you?

Cory Williams's picture
Great post "TiaLee" and

Great post "TiaLee" and thanks for breaking it up, I see some people are posting walls of text which is a chore to read on a screen.

Josh Glass's picture
Um? Hello? Are you going to

Um? Hello? Are you going to reply to any of us? All my questions have been asked. I'm just waiting for answers.

Chuchi Caceres's picture
Lady, if you can hate de sin

Lady, if you can hate de sin but not the sinner, we can hate belief but not de believer.

sigmareaver's picture
OP seems to be gone for now,

OP seems to be gone for now, so perhaps I can act as a substitute. Like OP, I was raised Christian, but I do not limit my beliefs or theories to any one religion or theory. Q&A format should suffice for this thread.

Q: "because your beliefs (and those who share them) can be major sources of oppression in our lives".
A: There should be no doubt in anyone's mind (theist or atheist) that this is true, especially throughout history. However, I don't hate religion, I hate the horrible behavior of the oppressors. Oppression isn't limited to religion. Hitler grew up Christian, but he was Atheist by the time he took power. He too believed science would dispel all myths. So yes, there are both theist and atheist oppressors. Oppression doesn't come from religion, it comes from humans.

Q: "[I] find the followING of (insert religion here) distasteful and silly."
A: For the most part, so do I. Let's make this clear: religion is doctrine created by humans, and is typically a tool designed to control other humans throughout history. Religion or not, I still see a theory of existence where a higher power exists is still the most feasible one.

Q: "I also find the behavior of some followers of (insert religion here) abominable."
A: Humans are humans, regardless of their walk of life. Yep, many people use the excuse that their sins are forgiven as an excuse to continue to sin. Don't throw stereotypes around though.

Q: Before we get into it, please define "God."
A: We can get into Hebrew on this one. Elohim is the Hebrew word for God in Genesis chapter 1, but specifically it refers to God in a particular role: Creator. That's the generic modern translation, but there is a more interesting older translation of the word Elohim: Those who came from above. I've said all that, because I see two possible definitions for God (as far as Christianity goes). 1) The entity that caused the Big Bang. 2) The beings who came to Earth (who may have done genetic experiments to life on Earth: I'm not saying I believe this, it's just an interesting theory).

Q: "That's great, but why would your representation of the "face of God' be more correct than anyone else's?"
A: I'm not that person, so I can't answer your other two questions, not can I say that I have the same answer to this question as her, but I believe what she meant by this was: Love. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus answered with: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbors as yourself. As opposed to condemning homosexuals to hell, which has no love in it whatsoever. That's just my guess.

Q: "When I see people who believe in fairy tales and prioritize illogical belief over basic human decency"
A: As an extension of my previous answer, treating others wrongly isn't justifiable through religion. Besides, the goal of religion should be loving your neighbors. People are often blinded to that by their own preconceptions and fears. However, I would like to say I find it distasteful when people (I admit, doubly so against atheists) are so closed minded that they can't believe in the possibilities of anything that they can't see, touch, smell, etc. You may as well have been born without an imagination. I'm not saying blind faith is correct, just that being closed minded to the possibilities is incorrect.

I'd like to respond to more of your posts, but I'm stopping the Q&A here for now as this post is already getting quite long.

Now I will bring forth some reasons why I feel a creator theory has a high probability of being true. Disclaimer: this is all based entirely upon my current knowledge, so do your own research.

Both (most) religion and science agree that there is a beginning of this universe.
Religion: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Science: Knows the big bang happened, but can't explain WHY it happened.

Both religion and science agree that there is a beginning of life on this planet.
Religion: God created life.
Science: Knows life began, but can't explain WHY it began. Despite all evidence collected, and experiments done thus far, there still isn't an explanation. What I do know is that the odds of a protein forming by pure random chance are 10^360 or something ridiculous like that.

Both religion and science agree that there are kinds of life on this planet.
Religion: God created fish, birds, creepy crawly things, etc, etc.
Science: It's an observed fact, every documented fossil and species of life presently observable can be categorized into one type of life or another. But science can't explain where these kinds came from. There are no known transitional fossils. Every fossil discovered to date is either in one category, or another. Ie. there are no half dinosaur half avian fossils that share two categories.

Now, we do know that "microevolution" does exist, right? Small changes in a species occur over the course of generations. The classic proof being the beaks of birds. If these changes really do constitute evolution, why aren't there transitional fossils? It is my opinion that microevolution should be renamed adaptation.

In conclusion, I feel that, in its present state, evolution requires just as much blind faith to believe in as any religion.

Under the topic of cosmology, if we existed in a closed universe (one where a big crunch and big bang occur in a never ending cycle), I would actually lend more credence to the idea of evolution, but current cosmological evidence indicated that the universe is actually expanding at a rate greater than what it used to be. I understand that nothing is conclusive, but my first logical thought is that if the universe expansion is accelerating, then the big crunch can't happen. That means that this universe has only had one beginning, and if its not in an infinite loop, that means that there HAD to be some kind of catalyst to cause the universe to form in the first place. Thus, a higher power.

That is my theory. As a theory, consider it, modify it it, and test it. But don't put blind faith in it.

CyberLN's picture
Steel, the two quotes you

Steel, the two quotes you pulled from my post were not, if fact, questions. They were statements.

You advise that I "don't throw stereotypes around". How, precisely, did I do so?

I do not accept you as a 'substitute' for the OP. You are certainly free to throw your two cents in, but you are not the OP. The OP gets to decide their own timeline for reply. Your impatience for those replies does not give you license to speak for that person. The quantity of replies to this post indicates, at least to me, that folks are interested in hearing replies from the OP, not a substitute.

Travis Hedglin's picture
Indeed, I would prefer

Indeed, I would prefer talking to the OP, at least they don't conflate atheism with scientific theories. Atheism is underrepresented in the population of people who consider Evolution the best explanation to the diversity of life, most people who promote evolution aren't even atheists, they believe in a god. If we want to talk about atheism, talk specifically about what it is, not what it isn't...

CyberLN's picture
Touché Travis.

Touché Travis.

sigmareaver's picture
Sincere Apology: Sorry to

Sincere Apology: Sorry to your as well Travis. It's not as though I understand your perspective, but I am trying. It's why I am here.

Witty Response: Don't you know? Quantum mechanics has already conflated you with every theory and belief in existence.

I kid. In all seriousness, it's very difficult for me to understand the atheistic perspective both in general and on a personal level.

If I could draw an analogy of how it makes me feel, atheism to me is like the Dao. It's like emptiness.

Travis Hedglin's picture
To be fair, there is no one

To be fair, there is no one single atheist perspective, just like there doesn't seem to be a single theistic one. Knowing someones an atheist really only tells you that the number of gods they believe in is zero, we often disagree on a number of other ideas or subjects. It is rather like how finding out someone is a theist or deist doesn't tell you anything about what god they believe in, it could be yours or similar to yours, but there are many that are different to the point that you really can't compare them. While Christians, Hindus, and Scientologists may fall under the same label categorically, that is pretty much where the similarities end, and I wouldn't expect them to agree on much...

As far as your analogy, it is common enough for people to think atheism is nihilism, but that really isn't that common in actual atheism. I have heard similar things from Hindus, Muslims, and even a Asatru or two; without belief in their god(s) how could life have any meaning at all? Well, none of us believe in Zeus, but that doesn't make your life meaningless does it? Sure, we might not have any divinely mandated goals or meaning, but that doesn't mean that we can't have any goals or meaning. It only means that the goals and meaning we have are not commanded, but rather things we decide on, making them even more relevant and truly meaningful to us.

david chapman's picture
and if you werent INFLUENCED

and if you werent INFLUENCED by religion so dramatically.. (as shown by your need for control and precision), maybe you COULD have a perspective unbiased and able to see the views of others... its sad that someone that claims religion (requiring belief without proof) cant see our way (well thought out and considered based on empirical evidence, or lack thereof)....why is it so hard to use your cognitive abilities?

sigmareaver's picture
I apologize for the

I apologize for the stereotype comment, please disregard it. I had misread part of your post.

You seem... a bit edgy? Everything alright?

Maybe you're misunderstanding my intentions. I'm not trying to replace the OP, just help the conversation keep going til they return. Like the crappy act before the main attraction? I'll be the first to admit though that I can get a bit carried away when writing.

Let's just part ways then shall we? I don't enjoy conversing with nitpickers... or hair splitters either for that matter.

david chapman's picture
A bit edgy? wow.... no, this

A bit edgy? wow.... no, this is whats called a NORMAL response to someone that wants to take over the conversation, cant be patient, and controls the whole thing....with long winded and VERY COMPLETE responses to posts....smfh.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Steel arm, you have brought

Steel arm, you have brought forth some good subjects of debate that demand clarification.

Please start a new topic on each and every subject you stated so we can debate them there and not in this topic.

sigmareaver's picture
I left one thing out that I

I left one thing out that I just remembered. Another reason I can't lend credence to evolution right now is the amount of fraud that has been going around among proponents of the theory. I mean, honestly, Nebraska man (and his family) were entirely reconstructed from a SINGLE TOOTH. It's almost like some of these evolutionists are so eager to prove evolution that they'll go to any length to do it. There's so much pro-evolution propaganda around today that evolution doesn't even feel like science anymore, it feels like a religion. Science needs to be done with open mindedness and unbiased. I can respect that, but when people start trying to make square pegs try to fit into round holes, I lose respect for them. That's my biggest complaint about today's scientific industries. It's controlled by politics. Often times science follows the status quo simply to keep their budgets secure. Results of scientific experiments are often skewed to fit an agenda. Science is about finding the truth, not about proving an agenda. None of you can deny that this isn't affecting human progress.

Travis Paskiewicz's picture
Why are we here?

Why are we here?
I guess the simplest answer is that we are here because we are the genetic concoction of two people having sex, that happened to be pushed out of a vagina roughly nine months later.

Why would an atheist make fun of your beliefs?
Everyone has their own reasons. Most atheists don't have any respect for the bible, because it is baseless fiction. We can't see god, measure him, talk to him, know his power or otherwise verify any of the "Miracles" contained in it that are supposed to convince us of its divine authenticity. So the next best explanation for god and the bible, is that it was simply made up to pass along cultural traditions and morals in the form of fictional stories.

Does that answer your questions, Jessie?

Rose 's picture
JesseJ, thanks for sharing

JesseJ, thanks for sharing your brave opinion. I respect your belief and I understand why you stay in your belief. It's nice to know that you're open-minded enough to join an atheists forum. keep your mind open and who know where it will take you.

Johnny Moronic's picture
I have no idea why anyone

I have no idea why anyone would hate someone JUST for their belief(s). The people I know who hate people of faith for the most part hate them for their belief-based ACTIONS, not for their beliefs. If they JUST believed, and didn't try to foist that belief on others, legislate their beliefs, etc., then I don't think any intelligent atheist would hate them. As to why some of us mock, make fun of or ridicule those beliefs, it is mostly because those beliefs are ridiculous. We ridicule the ridiculous, basically. Don't take it personally though, we don't just ridicule your belief, we ridicule anything that is ridiculous. That's why they call it "ridiculous". (Same root word.)

david chapman's picture
belief NOT based in action is

belief NOT based in action is not a belief....its a wish.

Chaos's picture
Christians hate atheists all

Christians hate atheists all the time for their lack of belief and other people of other religions for not believing the same as they believe, why is the opposite so hard to comprehend?

Marilia Coutinho's picture
Best reply of the day! :)

Best reply of the day! :)

Aaron's picture
Well it's very hard for me to

Well it's very hard for me to believe that why people hate someone just because of their region and I know their are many people who are good but same way some of people make things worst for region as they force people to believe in their own region.

david chapman's picture
then there is also the fact

then there is also the fact that SO MANY people SAY they are followers of jesus, but then cuss like a sailor.... Following someone doesnt mean doing what you choose to do that MIGHT be like him, it means FOLLOWING HIM COMPLETELY!!! Its not about TRYING to follow, or DOING OUR BEST....

Chaos's picture
I don't personally hate

I don't personally hate christians like yourself that are down for a good debate and show respect. I do hate those that blatantly lie and cherry pick from their version of the bible, which, all versions are contradicting in nature. Religion has been used to oppress people for thousands of years and it is time to put a stop to it over a group belief in some mystical creature that has never been shown to exist.

Just a summary.

JohnM's picture
Generally speaking this isn't

Generally speaking this isn't the way people show their views & that would get us pissed off
& Most views in any religion is damn rgt funny sry if I offend you but just think about you say'there was guy created everything there is no way to prove he is there (he is basically gender bias) but he is there up in the clouds in this place called heaven' well that just doesn't make sense it's like saying I got this invisible undetectable dragon in my basement

Marilia Coutinho's picture
All important points have

All important points have been made by other people here. Let me adopt a different approach:

1. "I would like to know what you guys think about people like myself who believe in Jesus Christ" is a non-question. "People who believe in Jesus Christ" defines, for us, nothing else than a person whose life is predominantly guided by fiction, which is not a morally bad thing. I don't think any of us can have an opinion about you. But "people like you" is too general. My grandmother, whom I loved dearly, was a catholic woman and also a musical genius, an extremely strong woman and, well, my grandma. If she asked what I though of her (and she wouldn't...), I'd say she was amazing. Not for believing any fictional character, but despite this fact. I didn't love her more or less for believing something that doesn't exist. You do understand that your question can't be answered, right? Logically.

2. " I would like to know why some Athiests seem to hate followers of Jesus". That is another illogical question. If you would like to know why "some" representatives of a certain group behave in this or that manner, but you don't describe what defines this sub-group, there is no way to answer the question. It doesn't qualify as a question. Who are "some"? Which "some"? Until you define this, we can't help you.

Oliver's picture
"So, I would like to know

"So, I would like to know what you guys think about people like myself who believe in Jesus Christ."

- I personally think that majority of believers lack the courage to ask hard questions. I think asking questions about why you believe what you believe, and why others believe what they believe will really help you be honest about your beliefs and biases. I think that believers are smart people, but just lack the courage to question their god. Maybe because of the way religions demonize doubt.

"I would like to know why some Athiests seem to hate followers of Jesus."

- I don't hate the followers. There's no room for hate when you just want logic, and reason to prevail.

"why some Atheists mock, make fun of, and ridicule my beliefs?"

- Bad ideas of any sort deserves to be criticized and mockery is a form of criticism.

mykcob4's picture
Well if christians would

Well if christians would actually follow "the word" and quit forcing their beliefs on everyone else maybe I would respect them, but they don't so I don't.
Maybe if they applied the same type of scrutiny that they apply to science to their own belief I might take them seriously.
Maybe if they didn't teach hate and spew hate against people just because of those people's sexual orientation, their gender, their race, their nationality, their language, their nationality and or country of origin, their chosen belief or non-belief, I might be more forgiving to them.
Maybe if they were not such hypocrites I might care about them.
If they wouldn't deny science and profess pseudo-science, deny history and replace it with revisionist history, I might consider what they talk about.
If they didn't brainwash children instead of teaching critical thinking and free thought I might even learn to like a few.
Maybe if they would get the hell out of MY government, out of politics, out of schools, out of the courts, I might think about it.
But alas, that is NOT the case.

Algebe's picture
@JJ: "I would like to know

@JJ: "I would like to know why some Athiests seem to hate followers of Jesus."

I don't hate followers of Jesus who can mind their own business and confine their activities to consenting adults. If Jesus floats your boat, good luck to you.

But I don't like being preached at by Jehovah's Witless and Morons on my doorstep. I don't like being looked at as if I just climbed out a flying saucer if I mention to a Christian that I'm an atheist (invariably after they've asked me what religion I am, as if it's any of their business). I really don't like Christians trying to influence politics or society undemocratically. Why should they assume that they have a special right to be consulted on issues like abortion and gay marriage, as if they had a monopoly on morality? And I really hate what priests and brothers, etc., have done to children all over the world. If I were a Christian, that alone would make me question god's mercy and justice and turn to atheism. Hey Jesus. Leave those kids alone.

Any Christian who comes to this forum to preach and proselytize is fair game as far as I'm concerned. Let us prey.

Kinchy's picture
I very much think this is a

I very much think this is a wind up from you. "Asking for it..." - well, doesn't really set the tone for a reasoned debate, and does seem at odds with your professed Christianity.

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