Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular

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Gnostic Christian Bishop's picture
Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular

Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other and is responsible for many honor killings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvdqNU8rX4

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments;, veils hijabs, or beards are three examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

The Golden Rules or some form of reciprocity exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable. In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

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Tin-Man's picture
"Is it honorable to force men

"Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?"

Hmmmm.... Tough question, but I think I'll give it a shot. So, after much consideration, my answer is, "NO."

Next topic, please.

Algebe's picture
Did anyone notice that "veil"

Did anyone notice that "veil" is an anagram of "evil"?

Forcing people to hide their faces for some crazy religious BS is just that. Human beings need to see each other's faces to understand each other.

Tin-Man's picture
Best I can tell, Algebe, is

Best I can tell, Algebe, is that the places where women are forced to wear veils do not give a damn about understanding women in the first place.

chimp3's picture
Of course forcing women to

Of course forcing women to wear a veil is wrong. My opinion does not seem to matter to the Iranians though.

Diotrephes's picture
Gnostic Christi...,

Gnostic Christi...,

When Paul established the Christian rituals he specified that women are to cover their heads in church and that if they didn't then the men were supposed to grab them and shave their heads.
http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/on_women/01_1c11_04.html 13 pictures.

MCD's picture
Of course not

Of course not

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
No, it is not moral,

No, it is not moral, justifiable or acceptable in any way shape or form to force any human to adopt a religious garb or bodily adornment.

Both major Abramaic religions force misogyny on their adherents, only the degree varies in the practice.It is all bollocks and all designed to identify those of "faith" and those who to revile, injure, kill and despise. Women are the bottom of the shit pile in both major religions when it comes to equal rights, authority over themselves and their bodies.
I've debated with the apologists and read all the quotes about the wonder of women, but the fact remains that Abramaic religions control their bodies, dress, speech and freedom of movement. Equally disgusting in every respect.

Diotrephes's picture
Old man who sho...,

Old man who sho...,

According to the biblical fairy tale all of the martyrs have to wear a white robe. Would you refuse to wear one?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
As I am unlikely to be a

As I am unlikely to be a martyr to anything but me old back and knees I think that questions is moot.

Diotrephes's picture
Old man who sho...,

Old man who sho...,

Every time I see haj pilgrims in their white wraps I think about that passage from Revelation 6:11.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Hajj-2017...

Sushisnake 's picture
Is it honourable to force

Is it honourable to force woman to wear hijabs or burkas? Nope. Is it honourable to force a priest to wear a dress and live a life of celibacy? Nope. Is it honourable to deny women can be head of a religion because a Bronze Age book says so. Nope. Is it honourable to force your religious beliefs down someone else's throat? Hell, no!

But since I suspect the OP is really talking about Islam - I mean, he's called Gnostic Christian, so perhaps he sees no problems in Christianity at all- I'd have to ask what we're supposed to do about it? We can (and must) denounce it in humanist terms, but it won't get us far: we're apostates. The harshest criticisms must ( and do) come from Islam's coreligionists. Why? Well, imagine Muslims telling Christians to get their act together. Imagine how the YEC and Westboro Baptist Church would take it. Imagine the Vatican. Islam needs a Reformation, but religious reformations have to come from within. The best we can do is support moderate and cultural Muslims to make that happen. Bombing the fuck out of them hasn't worked too well. Working to make blasphemy and apostasy laws a thing of the past internationally would help. While ever Spain can jail five young people for upsetting the faithful during RCC mass, we haven't got a leg to stand on. We're reduced to do as I say, but not as I do.

David Killens's picture
Was it moral to force people

Was it moral to force people in Germany to give the Nazi salute? It is moral to force someone to clench their left fist over their heart for the anthem? Societal and maybe even legal pressures may put that person into the situation where they either submit, or be ostracized.

Personally I find all of it repugnant. And this kind of crap extends to more brutal and cruel acts, such as female genital mutilation. At the worst a man may lose his foreskin. But for a woman, they are doomed to a life where pleasure is replaced with pain.

I live in a city with many immigrants, and over the years I have witnessed many people from these kinds of nations. They have good hearts, but I wish they could see themselves through my eyes. In almost every circumstance, the women must still stick to their traditional coverings, while two weeks after arriving, many men suddenly are sporting open shirts, chains, and other very western garb.

For me, it is obvious that such acts are nothing but one group (men) establishing a very firm control of the other group, women. In their eyes women are second class citizens.

But make no mistake, Muslims are not the only group who still attempt to dominate women. Go to any church on a Sunday morning, and take a poll. Who is driving the family car? The husband, or the wife?

Diotrephes's picture
If women didn't like it they

If women didn't like it they would whack the men upside their heads.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Not an easy thing to do when

Not an easy thing to do when you are sitting in a pool of your own blood at the town gates while your neighbours stone the fuck out of you....

Diotrephes's picture
Old man who sho...,

Old man who sho...,

While people hate to be oppressed very few people are willing to do what needs to be done to end their oppression. If a guy is oppressing his wife she could easily whack him while he's sleeping. There's a story about that in the Bible.

Sushisnake 's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes

" If a guy is oppressing his wife she could easily whack him while he's sleeping..."
Really?! That simple? If only women realised, Domestic Violence would end tomorrow. Yay! No more dead kids and dead women!

" There's a story about that in the Bible."
Yeah? There's one about a righteous man called Lot handing his daughters over to a mad mob to be gang raped, too. Mind if I look elsewhere for my moral code?

FFS!

Diotrephes's picture
Sushisnake,

Sushisnake,

That's the reason why people are always being oppressed. They refuse to stand up to their oppressors. In the case of men/women the women submit to mistreatment and then raise boys who also grow up to oppress them. They are solely responsible for their own oppression and want other people to rescue them.

BTW, there's a rape story in Judges chapter 19 that makes Lot look good by comparison. It's the most disgusting story in the Bible. But the point of the stories is to show the importance of hospitality in that cultural setting. There are some scenes in the New Testament where Yeshua simply told people that he was going to bunk with them for a while. That's in contrast to the beginning of his story where his family couldn't find a place to stay other than in a barn.

Sushisnake 's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes
"They are solely responsible for their own oppression and want other people to rescue them."

So these people are solely responsible for their own oppression? All oppression is bottom up, never top-down and systemic? Power has no agency or responsibility?

Tiananmen Square 1989 China

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Sushisnake 's picture
Kiev Ukraine 2014

Kiev Ukraine 2014

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Sushisnake 's picture
Standing Rock USA 2016

Standing Rock USA 2016

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Sushisnake 's picture
Standing Rock USA 2016

Standing Rock USA 2016

Just World Theory and Victim Blaming

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.scu....

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Diotrephes's picture
Sushisnake,

Sushisnake,

In 1989 China's population was around 1.5 Billion people. The small number of malcontents who were killed was insignificant. But pictures of their corpses make for powerful emotional propaganda.

There are different views on the effects of the protest. The people as a whole have become better off but the commies are still in charge and they are the main political and economic beneficiaries of the protests.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/15099/chinas_cultural_revolution_after_t...

https://chinachange.org/2015/06/02/how-the-tiananmen-massacre-changed-ch...

Sushisnake 's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes
I gave you three examples of the state violently crushing the protests of the oppressed, not one. I could have given you many, many more from all over the world, and we both know it.

My questions still stand: "So these people are solely responsible for their own oppression? All oppression is bottom up, never top-down and systemic? Power has no agency or responsibility?"

Diotrephes's picture
Sushisnake,

Sushisnake,

The idea that people are responsible for their own oppression is shown everyday in movies and in real life events. Take ISIS for instance. At first it was just a handful of thugs that showed up. They had guns and people became afraid. Then the thugs attracted more thugs and it became thousands. But in all that time the general population far outnumbered the thugs but they meekly accepted being bullied and killed. Even the army was weak-kneed. The best way to handle such a situation is to eliminate them when they are a small group. But the general population will always roll over because no one is willing to put his ass on the line.

Sushisnake 's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes

You mean the ISIS that helped themselves to all the guns, tanks and assorted military equipment the US, its allies and the Iraqi army we disbanded left lying around? The "handful of thugs" had a bit more than guns, mate. And they got a country ripped apart by war, a population reeling from that war and fuck all civil infrastructure left, because we smashed it.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isis+used+allied+military+equipment&o...

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=iraqi+army+disbanded&oq=iraq+army+dis...

And my questions remain: So these people are solely responsible for their own oppression? All oppression is bottom up, never top-down and systemic? Power has no agency or responsibility?

Algebe's picture
@Diotrephes: "There's a story

@Diotrephes: "There's a story about that in the Bible."

There are lots of stories about that in the news media. There was an even a movie about it starring Farrah Fawcett.

Sometimes abused wives kill their husbands while they're sleeping, such as by pouring gasoline on them and setting them alight. Wives who are not abused sometimes kill their husbands for other reasons and claim that they were abused.

These marriages are mixed up, shook up worlds of hurt. The only thing I can say for sure is that religion always makes it worse.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
And again Diotrephes, when

And again Diotrephes, when you do that, who looks after the children while your large, hairy neighbours drag you from the home and stone you to death? Your female neighbours do not have the strength individually to resist and their entire conditioning is to be subservient...to see the most documented version of the acquiescent victim syndrome do some research on the Concentration camp victims from Boer war to Gulag.

Do you not see a female dilemma? It is very similar except the theatre is not a barbed wire compound but a male dominated world.

Diotrephes's picture
Old man who sho...,

Old man who sho...,

Consider countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia where women have been oppressed. The leaders set the stage for everyone else. If their women were to whack them it would do more to free all of the others than anything else. They are basically aiding and abetting their own oppression by not taking action to end it. That requires violence. It's a war.

Cronus's picture
I once had this drunken

I once had this drunken obnoxious Arab customer who went on a 5 minute rant about how " the veil protects the modesty of our women" -- and how all Western women were sluts and whores.".

Nobody at the bar spoke for at least 10 seconds when he finished.

I piped up - " So your old lady is so ugly you make her cover her face. Thanks for that. But calling my mother, sisters and my old lady a slut or whore, just got you banned from my bar - asshole".

I did quite well on tips that night.

Algebe's picture
@Cronus: "our women"

@Cronus: "our women"

Those two words are full of meaning. Islam (and in some countries still, Christianity) gives men a sense of ownership over women. I saw Richard Dawkins talking with an Muslim in Jersualem. The Muslim started ranting about our women and your women and the way you dress your women. Dawkins replied that they aren't our women, they're their own women, and the dress themselves.

Countries with cultures based on patriarchal possessiveness toward women are invariably economically and socially backwards. They're wasting at least half of their brainpower.

Good for you for kicking the prat out of your bar.

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