Hey guys!
I just wanted to start this thread because I do believe proving that God exists is an important topic and I am not one to shy away from it. It is a massive debate, but I simply want to hear your thoughts.
What would be the minimum requirements for you to believe that God has been proved?
What would be the minimum requirement for you to believe that Jesus has been proved (life/death/and Resurrection)?
If you could list the evidence points that would be great
for example
1. God would have to physically appear before me and say I exist
2. We'd have to find Noah's Ark or something
etc.
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Real simple. A pile of real world, hands on evidence that surpasses science. Repeatable, cross tested evidence, utilizing the best method of discovery we know, the scientific method.
Or a global undeniable god miracle / wrath. A giant face in the sky that everyone in the world can see simultaneously plus a miracle far beyond anything man can do.
Given such evidence of your god I would probably 10x as devout as you are.
So a giant face in the sky would convince you that gods exist? Why? Why couldn't it be something else? Like... swamp monsters from Mars taking over by convincing us they are god or gods.
Well I did say "plus a miracle far beyond anything man can do." An easy example is everyone instantly regaining lost limbs.
Honestly though, even despite all of that. Logically it would make more sense that humans discovered the technologies to do this, and they then kept this technology secret until they could deploy both in such a manner, to further whichever religion they wanted to promote/create. It would be enormously difficult to pull off, but still to me, would make infinitely more sense then one of the current major religions god was real, and like depicted in the various books.
Course this supposed god is all powerful, he could just reach into my mind and take away my "free will" and make me believe him. That would work. I invite this god to do that to me right now... nope, still me, still do not believe in gods.. Guess the "god" won't for whatever reason, like, that god does not exist.
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It could be something else, but it would have to be simultaneous and universal to everyone. If it was some sort of miracle that happened only to me, my logical mind would immediately go to that I was hallucinating. The first thing I would consider is, did someone slip a powerful drug in my drink? But if everyone near and far experienced it too, that builds credibility to the event greatly.
A giant face in the sky was just the first thing that popped into my head as an example, borrowing from old hollywood movies.
Swamp monsters from mars would not convince me :) They would only convince me they were swamp monsters,if I saw a bunch in person, and was able to discern for myself they were not actually people or created by people.
Strictly speaking; it isn't possible. It is possible to provide an argument/evidence to convince someone (in general); but you won't be proving it.
But if you allow me to change the question to what might convince me? To borrow from LogicForTW: a repeatable religious ritual/faith healing/etc restoring the missing limbs to amputees would get my attention. It's not the only thing; but that is what comes to mind first.
Id believe in god if he gave me a big hug and said sorry for all these diseases and natural disatsters. Now lets go drive down my streets of gold.. OMG god is trump? I just see too many similarities
Before I'd accept proof of god, I'd need a proper definition of what god is.
Given such a definition, I'd next like to see spontaneous combustion of every priestly pedophile and money-grabbing televangelist, and the return of all the treasure of the Vatican to the descendants of the people from whom it was looted. Oh and I'd love to see Creflo Dollar's executive jet turn into a turkey in mid-flight.
HAH! I love your list algebe
@John: "I wish people would give better answers to this"
First of all, I think good evidence of god would be some form of direct action against people who are doing harm in his name. I can understand god taking a hands-off approach to the evil that people do for their own reasons, but surely he has to take some responsibility for the scriptural wriggle room that has allowed evil to flourish right in the heart of his churches.
Second, we can define atoms, molecules, bananas, camels, glass, paper, Donald Trump, Mick Jagger. So it is possible to assemble evidence that these things exist based on those definitions. But where is the definition of god? Is he a bearded old man farting lightening out of clouds, or is he an invisible force? There's no litmus test, because we don't know what we are supposed to be testing. So we can't even start to speak seriously about the proof required to accept god.
smells like a tergiversation.
"tergiversation"
I haven't heard that word for several hundred years.
@Nyarlathotep: Only smells???
@whatistruth1838.146: I'm sorry, but, Massive debate for whom? I don't see people debating whether gods, or god exists, or not, I see any believers pawned and disillusioned screaming to the wind that god exists, precisely because they doubt. I'm an atheist, I have no doubts about it, and while you're raising a book written by Greeks in the third century, I have science, history and the best ones giving me the reason... https://youtu.be/VuyYGVDCdN0
Another thing... Do you think finding Noah's ark would prove Jesus existed? It's curiosity Ôo)-~
ehm.... and @John 6IX Breezy, remember, Michio Kaku just wants to explain the whole theory in an alternate way, but if you really believe that someone takes him seriously, you're worse off than meets the eye.
First , present a concept of a god that is falsifiable. Then we can begin to present evidence for proving this deity of yours.
A bruce almighy type chill session with notorious G O D him/herself.
What is the point of proving there is a god?
1. There's too much money to lose eradicating all religious posturing and divisiveness. Propose it to a Christian and see.
2. Picture a galvanized global population as a homogenized worship machine uttering praise drivel in lock-step unison to some ethereal dictator.
3. The various religion-based money making schemes would contrive new memes denouncing the revelation as a dirty trick (see #4, below) to precipitate the ruination of complete cultures and even nations.
4. It would be denounced as being just a little too coincidental with a time when technically capable machinery could, and probably is, the real AI behind the revelation.
5. The ultimate mutual denouncement of the atheist and theist factions, with the former dismissing the so-called revelation pursuant to #4, above, would be the new Phoenix from the flames. You think there's bloodshed now?
6. And, who cares? It won't make anything better than the deity should have made better already if it was real and capable of all the crap the bible babbles (in conflict) on about.
7. The event will only reveal that polytheism has been the real living notion of a god, and despite the event, remains the truth. Not everyone will be accepting of the revelation and dismiss it with the thought that their own real god will reveal itself next.
8. What brand of god do people subscribe to? Is the revealed one packaged that way?
OP - Get out of your imagination for just a millisecond and look at yourself. Now jump back in because you can't suffer a heavier dose of the reality outside of it. I realize you need your deity-driven immortality, and your imagination is the only place it can survive and live large, so don't attempt too many excursions beyond your fantasies. I'm guessing you are pretty well anchored in your imagination and it is providing you the inner strength to visit atheist forums and pitch the dream world it contains. Great, we love Disney too, but tell me what there is to gain with some kind of god-proof that people, injured by all things theological now and into antiquity, would want? There's some serious retro-splainin' to do.
The title of the OP is, "Minimum requirement an atheist to feel God is proved?"
First question is which atheist?
To prove a god you'd need empirical evidence supplemented by substantiated independent verification and peer review. No hearsay, no biblical citations, no unexplained miracles, no supposition, no "the world seems to be organized so there has to be a creator. No fallacy of logic, no leap of faith. Direct proof. I offered help in this thread. No theory or hypothesis. Concrete direct evidence. You can't say god did this and point to some act of nature.
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/helping-those-need-it-...
Your task is monumental. It has never been done and you won't be able to do it either. You can't prove jesus, let alone a god. Given your tactics and practices in the past, I can't see any way that you will even come close to achieving this. A bunch of YouTube propaganda videos just doesn't hack it. Redefining terms to suit your narrative won't get it done. Posting unrelated irrelevant scenarios is irresponsible.
You'd have to have a set of documentation that is verified and accepted universally, and I don't mean just by theologians. The evidence has to be beyond circumstantial because you believe that your god still exists.Eyewitness accounts aren't credible because we have to assume the witness is telling the truth and actually saw something, without being able to confirm or even test what they claim they saw. Also, personal experience is not credible for the very same reasons.
Now given that minimal standard I say it doubtful and highly improbable, even impossible for you to produce a god.
For start it would take testable evidence that can be peer reviewed. Then it would require some acts that only a god could do. Heal all amputees, cure all sick people of the world, and end world hunger. Then it would have to answer some questions. Why do you allow false religions? Why do you allow people doing evil in your name? Why do you allow so much suffering to happen? That is a few questions I can think of off hand. For a god to prove it is real, it would have to appear to everyone on the planet all at once. Even if their was a god proven, I wouldn't worship it.
21stCenturyIcon
I did not say it was the god of the christian bible.
I like the answer that Matt Dillahunty gives to this question....."I don't know what would convince me of god's existence....but I would think that if he/she/it exists, he/she/it would know what would convince me and provide such evidence".
I like this answer too.
I struggle to think of any possibility of what could convince me, even the answers I provided earlier in this thread I realize on more introspection probably would not convince me, due to all the contradictions, lies, etc that the major religions represent. So I leave it to this supposed god that has supposed infinite powers to do it :)
LogicForTW,
Suppose you were from a town in the 8th Century and a group airplanes flew over firing flares and then a big parachute jump took place with hundreds of guys floating down from the sky on white parachutes. If you knew the book of Revelation fairy tale you would think that you are seeing Jesus and his angels. That's a Twilight Zone scenario. But one's level of skepticism is most likely directly related to what he thinks is possible based upon his knowledge and imagination. Since we are more knowledgeable than ancient people it would take a tremendous amount of evidence to move our needle on the belief scale.
If all 7 billion + people had a picnic on the moon and ice cream cones on the Sun without any ill effects or special precautions and we saw the extent of the universe it's possible I could start to believe.
Well put.
And since I am now aware of the possibility of powerful psychoactive drugs and ever increasing incredibly sophisticated virtual reality systems, I realize that I can not even fully trust my intuition or my physical reality through the senses.
I trust them well enough for everyday life. I have to, or I would go insane. But when an extraordinary claim is made that goes against everything else I have learned and reasoned in life, I must consider that it is more likely I am on drugs and/or in a sophisticated virtual reality system is more likely than, whatever confounding evidence I am being presented that this 2000 year old god fairy tale story is real.
It is kind of like when someone realizes they are the sole winner of a billion dollar plus powerball jackpot. First they have to check with themselves, is this a dream? Because that is far more likely right now!
(Yes I am aware no one has ever been the sole winner of a lottery that big.)