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@David and tinman
How about we focus on the main objective we are trying to achieve now then, we get to that. Deal? This whole thing is getting messy as it seems people can't follow or respect the guidelines set out to actually and finally (maybe) reach some sort of common ground. Honestly, all this seems like some people are too scared to see if there even is common ground. There are enough threads around where people can go and argue/show their hate, this thread is not for that nor looking to achieve that.
I just made a similar post, not enough people know the Islamic faith. It is better that you make an important claim and offer the evidence for that claim, then we can counter.
You keep talking about common ground yet have no clear definition of what you mean by deity. You have rejected objective empirical evidence and the scientific method, so there is no reason the onus should be on the atheists here to find a common ground with your beliefs, which you have yet to define or evidence in any objective way?
As for respect you have espoused the worst kind of religious bigotry and prejudice here, so again why you think you can demand respect for your beliefs, which are a choice, but offer none to people based on who they are, is baffling yet fairly typical of theistic arrogance.
Is it ever moral for a 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old girl? You can talk about respect for your beliefs when you have the integrity to answer a plain question about your claims for them.
You must understand that you can't simply make a claim like yours and not expect some disparaging comments. All of these comments, many ridiculing, are also completely valid. "Can God create an immovable object?", "Why does God need a Prophet?", "What IS God?", "If the Quran is a miracle, why can't it be understood by all?". The list goes on and on, you must come close to answering these comments before they will offer you respect. If you can make a comment that stops us in our tracks and makes us say, "Oww, hang on, he has a point here", you are going to struggle. You must have something of substance to bring to the table. Start by stating what you class as sufficient evidence to continue. Maybe make some Buddha-like comments we can relate to, something...
Look at this and you will understand my point. https://www.venganza.org/
I know you're taking the piss, but you have a good point. The Qu'ran is claimed as a miracle, if this is true, it should be read in any language.
I have read a few times, "Evidence from an Atheist point of view". This is a moot point. Atheism is simply saying, "I don't believe you". No evidence required, right? Most people who know about this topic are just starting to get into Islam and it is extremely difficult to locate evidence from a subject we know little about. I think this needs to slide into a Muslim making a claim about, say, the creation of the world, then offering their proof that this is true. Then move on to God made man out of clay, then show your evidence for that, and so on. From this, we can share evidence.
@Lain,
Thank you for your post but, what you are suggesting has been tried before and failed as we have nothing we agree on as to what constitutes as evidence. Most people here are trying to understanding Islam in 5 mins, that wont happen is there is a lot it. With all due respect but its not as empty as atheism. This is not a thread for debate at the moment but, a place to try and find common ground. Science has been wrong in the past and continues to changed daily, and even some atheists on this site have disagreed to what evidence is to them so, i am trying to see what atheists will even agree to when it comes to evidence then move on to your suggestions. In a few different threads, most recently one titled "problem with epistemology" you will see some atheists arguing with the validity of what other atheists claim to be true or what constitutes as evidence. So let's all work together and at least have the atheist agree to what evidence is to them so then what will be acceptable evidence when it comes to Islam. Then, hopefully we can have a constructive conversation rather than some of the stupid posts that have already been posted prior to yours.
I think you missed the point a little. Like most theists, they don't understand what atheism is. It is simply you making a claim and me saying, "I don't believe you". Nothing more, no burden of proof, no position, no opinion. The moment someone says that there is no God, now has a burden of proof, that isn't an atheists position. It doesn't mean their point is not valid, it just means they now have a burden to prove. This burden falls on the claimant, not the recipient. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". To establish a common ground, you must first present what you claim to be evidence for the existence of ANY God, then your God. You can do this with the beginning of the Quran and show how God created the world et al, with all of what you consider evidence. You, as this is your thread, must establish what level of evidence you require to have common ground. Science is tricky and many points that have been made here, can be contradictory and also both correct. Quantum physics has opened an enormous door we are only beginning to get our head around and how this relates to conscientiousness, that in my view, is the only reality. Look at it from my point of view. Lets say we are talking in a pub when you realise that I believe that Harry Potter was a real historic character in a real event and that J K Rolling was some sort of Prophet. How would you be able to establish to me ANY kind of common ground? It would be almost impossible because you would think I was nuts. Then, lets say that 1.2 billion people believed Harry Potter was real, how would you approach that? You would say, "I don't believe you, show me your evidence", would you not? You are making an incredible claim that most of us here do not believe, you must throw us a bone. Show us what you consider to be evidence we can discuss.
By the way, it's "Iain" not Lain.
@lain
“I think you missed the point a little. Like most theists, they don't understand what atheism is.
On the contrary, I get the point and fully understand what atheism is. Respectfully, I think you are the one who missed the point based off the rest of your post. This thread is NOT a debate, it’s simply trying to find common ground as to what atheists believe is evidence. As I have said, atheists have already disagreed to what they think evidence is so, how are we (atheists and Muslims) are supposed to try to have a conversation when both are speaking 2 different languages by not even agreeing what evidence is?
“It is simply you making a claim and me saying, "I don't believe you". Nothing more, no burden of proof, no position, no opinion.”
Thanks for proving my point when I said Atheism is empty.
“The moment someone says that there is no God, now has a burden of proof, that isn't an atheists position. It doesn't mean their point is not valid, it just means they now have a burden to prove.”
This sentence is contradicting itself, is an atheist says there is no god, then they are making a claim they need to prove. Prove how you reached that conclusion and why
“To establish a common ground, you must first present what you claim to be evidence for the existence of ANY God, then your God.”
Thanks for proving you don’t even know what the current objective of this thread is.
“as this is your thread,”
The intent was this to be OUR thread hence the title Muslim AND Atheist but, even if it is my thread as you claim then why not 1) either follow the guidelines or 2) do not post at all since you clearly are not following the guidelines to help achieve the objective
Re-read the initial post and try to understand the objective, if you still do not get it I respectfully ask you to stop posting anything not related to the objective and wasting space. Although, if you are the same as some of the other atheists that have posted, you will most likely ignore and continue to do as you wish.
Oh, and if 1.2 billion poeple belived in harry potter and one of them tried to reach common ground with me in an effort to try and see things from the other's point of view and set out specific guidelines in an effort to genuinely reach a conclusion i would go along and see where it goes.
@Hulkster
For starters, I would like to commend our new friend (Iain) on that fantastic couple of posts attempting to reasonably explain to you and help you understand some misunderstandings you have been unable to figure out for yourself. Sadly, you pretty much just waved his polite gesture aside as if it meant nothing. Too bad. More on that in a few, though. By the way, great having you aboard, Iain. It was a valiant effort, at least. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Okay, here's the deal, dude. All joking and horseplay aside (for the moment). Apparently, what you are failing to grasp is that everybody on here understands perfectly well what your objective is for this thread. The problem you fail to see, however, is that you are addressing a group of atheists. Meaning, the ONLY thing any of us have in common is that we do not believe in a god. Period. Otherwise, we are all individuals. Strongly independent individuals, for the most part. And because of that, it is highly unlikely you will find any two of us on here who hold exactly the same beliefs on any given subject. Your frustration stems from the fact you are trying to treat us as you would a congregation of Baptists, or Methodists, or Pentecostals, or whatever other type sect you care to choose. Sorry, buddy, but trying to clump us all into one specific belief about "evidence" (or any other subject, for that matter) is basically an exercise in futility. You would have an easier time (and probably more fun) trying to herd kittens in a field full of butterflies.
For instance, what I may determine to be acceptable evidence may very easily get scoffed at by any or all other members on this site. And whatever some other atheist member might consider credible evidence may get ridiculed just as easily by me and many others. In other words, there is no "atheist standard of evidence". It simply does not exist. You would have to have a private discussion with each and every atheist on this site to gain the results you are looking for in this thread. And pretty much everybody's "standards" would be different in some form or fashion.
Personally, my response to the whole, "What would you consider credible evidence?", is pretty simple: "I do not know." Here's the thing, though. If your Allah, or the god in the bible, or any of the other thousands of gods that have ever been invented are truly as all-knowing and all-powerful as people claim them to be, then that particular god should know EXACTLY what it would take to convince me it is real. If it does NOT know this very important thing, then it really isn't much of a god, is it? At the same time, if it DOES know this thing, yet it refuses to provide me with that which would convince me, then it must obviously have some reason that is does not want me believing in it. In which case, it is STILL not much of a god, as far as I am concerned. Basically, if it ain't worried about me, then I ain't worried about it. Pretty simple, in my book. Therefore, all this talk about some type of "collective credible evidence" seems to be a rather moot point, as it all pretty much boils down to the individual.
Now, back to Iain's fantastic posts that you just rather backhandedly dismissed. I sincerely suggest you go back and read them again with a little less frustration. I will not try to explain everything in them to you, because he did a fine job the first go-around. I would like to echo one very important thing he said, though, because you obviously are not getting it.....
Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s). Period. If you tell me Allah is real, and I tell you, "I do not believe you," then I have absolutely NOTHING to prove to you. I do not have to provide ANY evidence or proof as to why I do not believe you. (Why does everybody find that to be so complicated to understand?)
Look at it this way, if I come up to you and say I have a pet Leprechaun that lives at the end of a tiny rainbow in my bedroom closet, I imagine you would say, "I don't believe you." (If you were being polite. Personally, I would probably tell me something like, "I think you are full of shit and bat-shit crazy!" But that's just me.) Anyway, either way, please tell me what evidence you believe you should be required to produce to prove to me you do not believe that? Better yet, what would be your reply be if I were to demand of you, "Oh, yeah! Give me evidence and proof as to why you do not believe my pet Leprechaun exists, Mr. Smartie-pants!" See how that works?
Anyway, for what it's worth, I do hope that helps a little, dude. Catch ya around....
I like/agree with your post. I would agree a 2nd time if I could just for the:
"You would have an easier time (and probably more fun) trying to herd kittens in a field full of butterflies."
line.
Thanks Tin Man. It is quite alarming how many theists do not understand what Atheism and Evolution are. I was sent a link by a Muslim mate of mine (I'll put the link at the bottom if you're interested, but have something ready next to you that you can punch with frustration!), who claimed evolution was akin to, "wrapping a piece of meat in tin foil, throwing it into a damp cellar and expecting it to turn into a rat!". Idiots like him are incredibly dangerous to humanity and must be exposed. I have to take the afternoon to calm down sometimes before I reply as many simply choose to miss the point. The conversation seems to be assumed that God exists, then we have to disprove it. So frustrating...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDmkkL71MOo
@Tinman
While I would like to start off by thank you for your post, I would also like to add that I disagree with a lot of what you said especially “Meaning, the ONLY thing any of us have in common is that we do not believe in a god. Period. Otherwise, we are all individuals. Strongly independent individuals, for the most part”. Most people here have almost the EXACT same view on almost everything, which is fine and natural since people tend to gravitate towards likeminded people. Anyway, rather than addressing your post point by point I would rather save us both the time since it will inevitably go nowhere. Maybe I was wrong by trying to find common ground with more than 1 atheist, oh well, I tried. “Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s). Period.” In theory/definition yes, in reality, NO its not.
Oh, and if you said you had a leprechaun, I’d say I want one too lol. Anyway, if you or anyone is up for a civil 1 on 1 discourse please let me know. I am sure we can find a different platform where we can talk 1 on 1 without random people jumping, I think it would be a great way to attempt to see things from the other person’s point of view.
@lain
Thank you for replying, similar to what I said to tinman, in an effort to not waste time I won’t go in to details on how we disagree since it won’t go anywhere. Maybe this idea would have been better as a 1 on 1 type of chat. Anyway, if you or anyone is up for a civil 1 on 1 discourse please let me know. I am sure we can find a different platform where we can talk 1 on 1 without random people jumping, I think it would be a great way to attempt to see things from the other person’s point of view.
"Most people here have almost the EXACT same view on almost everything,"
Rubbish, you really do talk nonsense sometimes. just look at some of the exchanges on a wide range of topics, and you can see that beyond a lack of belief in a diety opinions vary wildly and sometimes quite aggressively. It suits you to believe that atheists are all the same, as it makes it easier for to dismiss their lack of belief that way, rather tha address the fact we're all individuals with minds of our own, able to objectively weigh evidence and arguments.
If you want this thread to go anywhere and not waste time then demonstrate your best evidence for your deity. If it's not good enough then c'est la vie, but this endless whining that no one will accept your evidence so you won't offer any is getting very tedious now.
@Searching for truth
We certainly do not all agree on everything. I imagine you are thinking about the two transgender threads, where atheist tend to be on the side of: transgenders need our support, understanding, and that we recognize the difference between biological sex and what a person personally considers their gender to be.
We could make comparisons all day on things generally agreed upon, I could make a long list I am almost certain both you and I agree on. Slavery is bad. Helping an elderly person with the door is good. Torturing people (for any reason!) is bad. Reporting a major crime to the proper authorities is good, and on and on.
I know of several atheist that think transgender people are an abomination and need to be rounded up and "cured." I know of lots more theist that are deeply moved and supportive by the plight transgender people face and will drop everything to help a transgender person in need.
@Hulkster Re: "I would also like to add that I disagree with a lot of what you said especially “Meaning, the ONLY thing any of us have in common is that we do not believe in a god. Period."
Well, okay. After reviewing that remark, I admit I should have worded that better. My bad on that, and my apologies. (Sincerely.) What I actually should have said was, "Meaning, the ONLY thing any of us DEFINITELY have in common is that we do not believe in a god. Period. Anything else beyond that is pretty much up from grabs." In my head at the time I originally wrote that post, that is what I was seeing/hearing. Unfortunately, there are times when little important details tend to take detours between my brain and my fingers when typing. Interesting how one word can make such a drastic difference. Go figure. *shrugging shoulders* Anyway, again, my bad on that. I can definitely see how that original statement could cause misunderstanding.
So, that being said, you are absolutely correct that many atheists on here do share common views on various topics. At the same time, however, we also have vastly different views and opinions on just as many other topics. In that same respect, you (a Muslim) and I (an atheist) share common views and opinions on a few things. Just like I also share many common views and opinions with most of my other Christian and Muslim and Pagan and Catholic and atheist and Buddhist friends. Bottom line is, man, we are all humans. And those who live in the same areas and those who frequent the same type internet sites and so forth naturally have a few common interests. It's only natural. But to expect and to try to insist that there is some sort of "standard atheist rules for evidence" that can be applied to all atheists in general is simply a pipe dream. Believe it or not, big guy, I do understand and sympathize with your inability to understand this. (Sincerely. I'm not trying to be a smartass or sarcastic.) Ummm.... Maybe I can try to explain it like this....
My wife is a member of a gardening site, because we have started learning to grow various vegetables over the past three years. She goes there to discuss various gardening techniques with others of varying experience levels in gardening. They get tips from each other and share gardening stories and so forth. But every person on that site comes from an incredibly wide array of backgrounds, ages, races, religious beliefs, genders, nationalities, and so forth. Meaning, the ONLY things any of them on that site DEFINITELY have in common is an interest in gardening. Period. Sure, no doubt there are many folks on there who share similar views/opinions in other areas besides gardening. At the same time, I have no doubt there are many on there who would go nose-to-nose and get downright hateful with each other over which particular gardening techniques may be better or worse. In other words, opinions vary, even among those who are gardeners. Granted, most analogies are not totally 100% accurate, but I do hope this at least helps you see it from a different angle.
Re: ".... a great way to attempt to see things from the other person’s point of view."
For better or worse, being able to see things from another person's point of view is an ability that has somehow always come natural to me. Sometimes it can be a great "gift". Other times, as you might imagine, it can also be quite the burden and not very fun. In regards to this discussion, you have to remember I have actually been on your side of the fence before. Not as a Muslim, of course, but very much within the religious mentality. As a result, I am very much aware of its lure and appeal. I am very much aware of its "sense of security". I am aware of the feeling of "comfort" it can provide. Along those same lines, I am also very well acquainted with its pitfalls and trappings. I am intimately familiar with the ever-present and often overbearing feelings of guilt, worry, and indecision that surrounded me on all sides like a moderate to heavy fog. It restricted how far I could see, and sometimes obscured my vision such that it often made simple decisions more complicated than necessary. Granted, there are many people out there who are totally fine with that fog. They are happy to be able to see only a short distance. It makes their lives more simple. Easier. That inhibiting fog actually ends up becoming a form of comfort and a "security blanket" to them. And - hey - if that is what makes them happy and provides them with comfort and peace in their lives, then that is all fine and well with me as long as they are not hurting anybody in the process. To each his own, as far as I am concerned. Personally, I absolutely hated that fog. I despised it. I felt suffocated in it. And it took me many years to find my way out into the clear. And ever since I finally cleared away that fog, I have finally been able to take a deep breath and look around and totally enjoy my life and the blue sky above me.
So, like I said, I am totally able to see things from another person's point of view. The question is, are you truly willing to try to do the same?
@Tin-man
It seems we are slowly (very slowly) but, surely getting somewhere.
“Well, okay. After reviewing that remark, I admit I should have worded that better.”
Understood, and it’s kind of weird seeing someone heartless apologizing? Lol. Tinman, no heart, I’m sure you get what I mean. Maybe you aren’t as “tinman” as you think.
“Believe it or not, big guy, I do understand and sympathize with your inability to understand this.
Thanks? Lol. I still think we are still kind of talking about 2 different things. Let me see if I can explain. When I said “evidence from an atheist’s point of view” I was not expecting 100% of atheists to agree to 100% of what every single atheist considered to be evidence. For example, you come and you say you consider these 7 things to be evidence, then, Logic says I consider these 10 things to be evidence then a 3rd person says I consider these 5 things as evidence. I, then wanted to take whatever and talk about the maximum of 5 things that could be common among the atheists that said they consider this and that as evidence. Make sense? The reason I said a maximum of 5 things since the 3rd person only claimed they believe in 5 things to be evidence so maybe all 5 of this claims are shared by you and logic or maybe only 4 or even 2. After seeing the responses from everyone perhaps I also could have worded this whole thig different or simply taken a different approach. We live and learn.
“In regards to this discussion, you have to remember I have actually been on your side of the fence before. Not as a Muslim, of course,”
Yes, you have.
“I am intimately familiar with the ever-present and often overbearing feelings of guilt, worry, and indecision that surrounded me on all sides like a moderate to heavy fog.”
See, it’s comments like this that I do not agree with, and that’s fine we do not have to agree however, it seems your experience with religion (I am assuming Christianity) was and is very different to mine. Honestly, I do not feel the “heavy fog” you refer to and that can be due to many reasons. Its comments like these (which I am not saying are bad) that makes me think you don’t get the true understanding of how Islam works and what it’s about. Most people here I have noticed constantly use Christianity (and understandably so) as their “punching bag” when talking about religion, and anyone who has studied or looked in to the 2 with an unbiased fashion will see the huge differences between the 2. While I do admit that you have to a certain extent have tried to see things from the other point of view, I feel like maybe your experience with Christianity often “fogs” up your judgment. I have been to Alabama many times and spent a decent amount of time there, it constantly reminded me of Dalton, GA (lived there for a few years) when it comes to the people and religion (Christianity) to a certain extent.
“So, like I said, I am totally able to see things from another person's point of view. The question is, are you truly willing to try to do the same?”
I am a Muslim that’s on an Atheist website where I have faced a plethora of insults, religious discrimination, and prejudgment yet, I am still here conversing. What do you think? Luckily, I am not a sensitive snowflake and can handle the ignorance by most here. It makes those rare moments of when someone actually has something of value to say, worth it.
Seeing how trying to have a civil conversation in a public thread seems to be impossible, I am still up to having a 1 on 1 chat with anyone willing on any private platform they choose.
@Searching for truth complaining about "religious discrimination" after previously mentioning that he believes non-Muslims will be tortured in hell - THAT is my understanding of "religious discrimination".
@sapporo
So I see you have become a shameless liar. What a pity. You want to show me where I said what you are blatantly lying about?
"I am a Muslim that’s on an Atheist website where I have faced a plethora of insults, "
You opened with a thread espousing the worst kind of religious bigotry and prejudice against transgender people, and now you're whining about being insulted, talk about hypocrisy. You choose to believe in your archaic superstition, whereas transgender people have no choice about who they are.
What evidence can you demonstrate that the deity you believe in exists?
Is it ever moral for a 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
Do you think gay people should have the same rights as straight people?
Do you think it is moral to torture humans forever after they die?
As I have said before, if you want your beliefs to be respected start by having the decency to answer people's questions honestly, and if your beliefs are immoral and repugnant then expect people not to respect them. I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want, but no one can demand the belief itself is respected, that's absurd. No belief should be ring-fenced from criticism in any truly free society.
@Hulkster
Re: "Tinman, no heart, I’m sure you get what I mean. Maybe you aren’t as “tinman” as you think."
Thanks. I actually got a good chuckle out of that. Yeah, I grudgingly admit I do have a heart at times. I especially have a soft spot for kittens and puppies. However, make no mistake, under the right (wrong?) conditions, all those feelings and emotions in that heart can be turned off as easily as flicking a light switch. Thankfully, that is something I do not have to concern myself with too much nowadays. *grin*
Re: Evidence
Okay, so it is obvious at this point there is a big miscommunication problem going on here. From your explanation in that last post, though, I do believe (I hope) I see where the problem may be. I now understand what you are saying about simply wanting to take the minimum number of "acceptable evidence items" that most atheists have in common and discuss those items. Now, I realize in your mind that seems like a reasonable and fair request. And if we were talking about almost any other topic, then - yes- that would be a reasonable and fair request. But I ask that you take a moment and step back and fully consider what it is you are asking. A couple of other folks on here have already attempted to explain, but I will try again as best as I can.....
*deeeeep thinking*..... Okay, let's try this.... Remember my answer to what I would consider credible evidence for the existence of a god? My answer was simply, "I don't know." And that is true. I have absolutely no idea what I would accept as evidence for a god. Not a single clue. And while this may not be true for all atheists out there in the world, I do know there are a few others on here, at least, who have given similar answers. So, with that in mind, how exactly are we suppose to provide you with something we do not know? As many others have already said numerous times, provide whatever evidence you may have, and it will be up to each individual to judge it according to his/her own values/standards of what would be acceptable and convincing. However, even beyond that, you seem not to understand you are asking us to tell you what we would consider evidence for something we do not even believe exists. Look at it another way...
I do not believe Santa Claus exists. Fine, right? But suppose somebody came up to me and said, "Santa is real. I know it for a fact. I even have evidence. Tell me what would make you believe Santa really does exist." Guess what.... My answer would be the exact same thing. Namely, "I don't know." But then I would immediately ask, "What evidence do you think you have that would prove Santa does exist?" At that point, it would be entirely up to that individual to provide whatever "evidence" he had, and then it would be up to me to judge it and decide if it is anything that convinces me Santa is real. And you can substitute anything you want in the place of Santa. Unicorns. Leprechauns. Easter Bunny. Thor. Odin. Shiva. And the list goes on and on.... Bottom line is, I simply CANNOT tell you something I do not know. Therefore, when you ask us for what we would consider to be valid evidence for something we do not believe in, in our minds it is an absurd question/request. What it amounts to is that YOU are making the claim your god is real. YOU are the one claiming you have proof of this god being real. Therefore, it is up to YOU to present that evidence/proof so that others can evaluate it based on their own personal/individual standards and make the decision for themselves. Some might agree that your evidence is indeed credible and convincing, in which case you may have a few extra Muslims to add to the flock. Others, though, may be considerably more skeptical, in which case your evidence will not budge them.
Something else to keep in mind. In my above example, I used Santa, right? Well, even though Santa "knows when you are sleeping, and knows when you're awake, and knows when you've been bad or good," I think most would agree he would not be considered omnipotent or omniscient. (Even though the flying reindeer and sled are pretty dang cool.) Your god Allah, on the other hand, and the god in the bible (one in the same, if my understanding is correct) are both reported to be exactly that. They know EVERYTHING and they can do ANYTHING. Therefore, as I have already explained in an earlier post, if those gods do indeed possess those impressive attributes, then they know EXACTLY what would make me believe in them. And they could very simply do whatever would be required to make me believe in them. Matter of fact, they supposedly know exactly what I am thinking and writing at this very exact moment. They even knew many eons ago that I would be sitting here today at my computer writing this exact post. So, to me, it stands to reason that if they wanted me to believe in them, they could very easily make that happen with the snap of their fingers. And since I do not yet believe in them, they (for whatever reasons) do not want me to believe in them, OR they are not real. Either way, my life goes on just as merrily as before. And I feel I must repeat how much nicer my life has indeed been ever since I dropped that deadweight anchor called "religion". I see things more clearly now than I ever had before, and it is a wonderful feeling. I recommend everybody try it. *Big Grin*
Whoops. Looks like this post has turned into an essay. Sorry about that. Got carried away. Gonna go ahead and cut this off before I start getting hate mail. Anyway, hope this helps a bit. Not sure how much more clearly I can explain it.
Edited multiple times for spelling and grammar, because obviously I have forgotten how to write/type this evening. Grrrr....
@ Tin Man
100,000 agrees credited to your account. Thank you.
And I have given an answer almost exactly the same. The only way I can know if it is evidence is if you provide what you think may be evidence, I take it, test it, test it again and again and again and again, until I either disprove the evidence, or prove it.
I have always been saying, if it cannot be falsified or verified, then it is not evidence. That is just another way of saying, if it cannot be tested, it is not evidence. So, this is a form of evidence I will accept.
Here is a hypothetical for you, SfT. If a humanoid being said it was god and we detonated a thermonuclear warhead on top of it, and it was still there after the smoked cleared, I just might believe it is god. However, I would then also wonder if it is not a holographic projection. See what I mean by being tested?
rmfr
P.S. — Where is that 10-K Agree button?
@Hulkster Re: Post starting with - "It seems we are slowly (very slowly) but, surely getting somewhere."
Since my first response to that post got a little long-winded, I was not able to address everything in it. Gonna give it a shot here.
Re: Me - “I am intimately familiar with the ever-present and often overbearing feelings of guilt, worry, and indecision that surrounded me on all sides like a moderate to heavy fog.”
You - "See, it’s comments like this that I do not agree with..."
Ummmm.... Okay, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean that as it sounds, but here is how that statement comes across to me. It is you pretty much saying you do not agree with a personal experience I had. Rather along the same lines as this:
Me - "My Mom died last year, and I was very upset about it."
You - "Gee, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your statement about that."
Uh, basically, whether you agree with it or not does not make my statement any less true. Those feelings of guilt, and doubt, and indecision, and worry I experienced as a result of religious indoctrination were all very real to me for a vast majority of my life. Now, you say that is something you do not experience. And that is great for you, as far as I am concerned. I am actually happy for you that you have never had to feel that type of smothering oppression. I assure you, it is not a pleasant experience. And because it is something you claim you have not experienced in regards to your own religion, how on Earth can you possibly expect to relate to it in any meaningful way?
Re: " Its comments like these (which I am not saying are bad) that makes me think you don’t get the true understanding of how Islam works and what it’s about."
*long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, pause*....... *long, long, long, long, long, long, long pause*...... Please excuse that. I literally had to sit here at my keyboard for several minutes composing my thoughts and calming my nerves a little before responding to that, because I truly do want to keep my tone as civil as possible during this post....*deeeeeeep breath*....*slowly exhaling*.....
Okay, I'll give this a shot. If memory serves me correctly, you once told us you actually CHOSE to follow Islam after many weeks/months of actively researching and comparing it to other religions. And if I recall correctly, you said you chose it because it is the only one that made logical/reasonable sense to you. (Please correct me if I am wrong.).....*deeeeep breath again*......*exhale slowly*.....*shake the jitters out of my hands*.....*pace about the room for a moment*..... (Wow, seriously, I am not exaggerating or trying to be an ass. For some reason, I really am having some strange difficulties with this. Was NOT expecting the type of reaction I am experiencing at the moment. Dang.... Okay, sorry. I'll try to keep going...) So, anyway, you are absolutely correct in saying I do not get the true understanding of how Islam works and what it is about. That is very true. I totally do not get it. But I will give you one even better than that. Even though I grew up in a Christian environment and was taught Christian beliefs, I do not get the true understanding of how Christianity works and what it is about. It never made sense to me as a slightly educated and naïve little kid, and it makes even WAAAAAAAY less sense to me now as a highly educated and vastly more experienced adult. And while I may not be incredibly well versed in the Koran or Islam, I have learned enough over the years to determine that comparing Islam to Christianity and choosing between the two is very much like comparing two demented psychopaths and choosing which one is the better person. "Well Psychopath #1 (Christianity) is okay, I suppose, but he's just sooooo.... oh, I don't know, passive-aggressive. And he dresses funny. Psychopath #2 (Islam) seems so much more confident and assertive, though. Plus, he seems to have better taste in clothes." So, no offense, but in my mind you basically chose Islam because of attitude and a better tailor.
Because here is what it all boils down to for me. As much as I despise them. As much as I condemn their actions. As badly as I wish there was some way to completely eradicate them from the face of the Earth, I almost cannot help but have some small amount of grudging respect for all of those Christians and followers of Islam that we label as "extremists." I'm talking about those who are even to this day burning friends and family members alive in the name of the Christian god because those friends and family were accused of being witches. I am talking about those who mercilessly and slowly saw the heads off "non-believers" while they are still alive in the name of Allah. Oh, and the ones who would strap several pounds of explosives and ball bearings to themselves and set it off in the middle of a mall full of innocent people...... IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. And WHY would I ever consider having even the slightest amount of respect for such groups or individuals? Because at the end of the day, THEY are the only ones who are TRULY following the guidelines of their precious holy books to the letter. THEY are the true Christians. THEY are the true Muslims. No matter how despicable their actions. No matter how fucked up it all may be, THEY actually have the balls and the commitment to "walk the walk" and follow and carry out the difficult and unpleasant commands within their books, as opposed to just picking out all the goody-goody feel-good stuff that is easy to follow and makes them feel good inside.
*deeeeeep breath*.....*slowly exhale*...... Okay, I think I'm gonna go outside and chop some firewood now.
@Hulkster
Oh, and one more thing real quick since I have had a chance to settle myself a bit....
Before we get the inevitable excuse of, "Well, those extremists are not true Christians or Muslims because they misinterpret and do not follow the teachings of the bible or Koran in the proper context", here is an inescapable fact for you. Those Islamic extremists read and use the same book you follow. And pretty much all of them were born and raised in that faith, while YOU consciously chose it only a relatively short time ago. Perhaps YOU should trot your happy butt over to Iraq or Afghanistan or any other Islamic country of your choice and approach any one of those extremist groups (or, in some cases, government officials) and explain to them how they are not "true Muslims." Be sure to stress to them they are not following Mohammed's or Allah's teachings in the proper manner. Then send me a postcard letting me know how that worked out for you.
In 1998, Eric Rudolph detonated a bomb at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, AL, killing a police officer who was working there. That was one of my brothers in blue, and I attended his funeral. Inescapable fact: "Mr." Rudolph was following the teachings of his chosen religion, namely Christianity. And he was following the same bible that my Mom, and my Granny, and my Uncles followed their entire lives. The difference, however, is that Rudolph followed its teachings in a much more dedicated manner than the average "Christian". Show of hands here.... Anybody interested in attending the nearest KKK meeting and explaining to those fine gentlemen how they are not true Christians, and how they are not following the word of god in a proper manner?.... Anybody?... Anybody at all.... No?.... Oh, well, I tried.
Edit to add: By the way, I HAVE been to Muslim countries. Afghanistan once, and Iraq twice.
Anybody interested in attending the nearest KKK meeting and explaining to those fine gentlemen how they are not true Christians, and how they are not following the word of god in a proper manner?
Uhh... HELL NO!! Being caucasianoid, they'd treat me a hell of lot worse than any other. If I had a main battle tank, an APV full of hulking Marines locked and loaded, and a couple of Apache combat helicopters to back me up, oh, and throw in a couple of A-10 Warthogs, then, yeah, I'd tell those KKK and Neo-Nazi guys they are screwed in the head.
And since I was in the Navy, give me the whole USS Gerald R Ford CVBG for air cover...
rmfr
I replied to both of your previous post on the last page. Figured it might be easier
Searching for truth
I read your reply, so how is all that going for you? Are you reaching your goal of common ground? No, of course you are not. No one here believes your claim; it is you who must start. The guidelines you stipulate are impossible to follow; there is no evidence for nonsense claims. You HAVE to debate here to move forward, why can’t you see that? People on here are just taking the piss out of you. We are not talking different languages, there is simply no evidence to support your claim; nothing.
““The moment someone says that there is no God, now has a burden of proof, that isn't an atheists position. It doesn't mean their point is not valid, it just means they now have a burden to prove.” This sentence is contradicting itself, is an atheist says there is no god, then they are making a claim they need to prove. Prove how you reached that conclusion and why”
I’m not sure what you are asking here. If it is what I think it is, then it’s quite simple. The Atheist position is, “I don’t believe you”, just that, nothing more. This means they have no burden to prove anything as they are not making a claim. However, if someone says, “There is no God”, then that is different, that is a claim, then there is a burden to prove. This point is actually not the Atheist position (Even though inwardly they may think it).
““To establish a common ground, you must first present what you claim to be evidence for the existence of ANY God, then your God.” Thanks for proving you don’t even know what the current objective of this thread is.”
This is my point exactly, you are going nowhere with this. In order to find a starting point, you must find some substance to work with. You are not doing that, you can see from the posts that you are now not being taken seriously when you had a good start. I am not ignoring your objective here; I’m doing my best to be kind and respectful by helping you to see how your thread has been taken by everyone. You are asking people to share evidence of which they don’t believe exists, can’t you see that?
Everyone has been going along as you put it for three pages now, and so far you haven't offered a single solitary word that infers you have any evidence of any type for your beliefs, is it a secret or something?
I'll make it very simple for you again, what evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists? Hell I've removed the word objective for you, and have even freed you from evidencing your own beliefs, how much more latitude you can be offered is hard to see. Your inability to offer anything can only infer one thing, tic toc.
" we have nothing we agree on as to what constitutes as evidence."
Hardly surprising as you have demonstrated none.
"Most people here are trying to understanding Islam in 5 mins, that wont happen is there is a lot it."
It's superstitious flimflam. and no amount of grandiose claims from you will change that, and what's more you've had days to offer something, anything, but have not done so.
"With all due respect but its not as empty as atheism. "
What a truly meaningless idiotic thing to say, like claiming tennis is a better sport than not collecting stamps. The "with all due respect" part was hilarious though.
"Science has been wrong in the past and continues to changed daily, "
Another gem, science can correct an error, move on and gain knowledge each time. Science has refuted religions claims with empirical evidence, name one thing asserted as true by science that religions have disproved?
"what will be acceptable evidence when it comes to Islam"
Same as everything else, Islam doesn't get to set a special standard for evidence, nor does any religion.
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