THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE

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Sheldon's picture
Just like Breezy, what you

Just like Breezy, what you choose to believe about evolution is irrelevant. Scientific facts can only be amended by new scientific facts, and the scientific method has very strict principles of validation, that require a lot more than hearsay in an internet chatroom.

" If by chance we did evolve it was litterally a miracle and evidence for existence of God,"

Yet again you are pointing to a scientific fact and claiming "godidit", this is literally unevidenced nonsense. However we don't need to worry about chance, as species evolution and common ancestry are objectively evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt.

"I firmly believe in the theory of evolution,"

"have Darwinists found those bones yet?"

Oh dear...that has all the hallmarks of trolling.

David Killens's picture
@Jason74

@Jason74

"I'm sure you've heard the staggering numbers associated that by 'chance' we evolved so quickly without boring you with the numbers the chances we evolved in such a short time frame from a primal soup is one chance against all the grains of sand in the universe."

Four billion years is an appreciable amount of time.

CyberLN's picture
Jason, you asked, “So

Jason, you asked, “So basically the question is, could it be possible that science and God(religion) be compatible with each other?”

No.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jason74 - ...then came along

Jason74 - ...then came along Hubble and made his analysis for the Big Bang theory that the universe at one point was a singular form some 10 billions degrees [Fahrenheit] and only a few [millimeters] in diameter...

  1. There is no singularity in the big bang theory.
  2. An object with a diameter of a few mm is not a singularity.
Jason1974's picture
Sheldon

Sheldon

'Selection bias', scientific fact of evolution? Last time I looked it's still a theory, like I said I believe in evolution but not the same way.
Sheldon how many coincidences do you need. First of all I stated that the religious origin of the universe was similar to current science facts, secondly I stated that evolution and religious evolution were similar both which are 2 thousand years apart, thirdly with current affairx science has predicted a cataclysmic event unless humanity changes its habits which religion has also predicted. I'm not saying that the supernatural has any influence over science instead the relationship between the two, it seems the more science finds out about topics like the universe or evolution it seems to
snug up to religion quite well. Piggy backing on science I don't have to, the facts I've stated about science are obviously true like evolution and the Big Bang are still theories is it not Sheldon? why not use science as a tool, atheists have been doing it for years. To me it's all about learning and not to try and debunk atheists, I love reading about science etc it's fascinating like philosophy.

Nyarlathotep's picture
You can be confident a

You can be confident a speaker doesn't know wtf they are talking about when they tell you that [insert scientific theory here] is still just a theory. What did they expect it to turn into? A chicken?

Sapporo's picture
Definition of theory:

Definition of theory:

A coherent statement or set of ideas that explains observed facts or phenomena and correctly predicts new facts or phenomena not previously observed, or which sets out the laws and principles of something known or observed; a hypothesis confirmed by observation, experiment etc. [from 17th c.]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/theory

Sheldon's picture
"Last time I looked it's

"Last time I looked it's still a theory."

A theory in science is the pinnacle of scientific understanding. Valid scientific theories explain facts, these 're broad explanations of naturally occurring phenomena. Sometimes where it is appropriate contained within these theories are smaller explanations of how small aspects of them behave, these are scientific laws.

Did you not know this? This seems to be a very common misconception amongst theists, but creationists in particular. It displays a fundamental ignorance of the most basic facts of the scientific method.

"Sheldon how many coincidences do you need."

Is that a question? If so I don't understand what you mean, need for what? A coincidence doesn't exist, it's just our subjective perception of how likely we think an event is. It's meaningless.

"First of all I stated that the religious origin of the universe was similar to current science facts, "

You cited one religion, and your claim is risible nonsense as I explained in detail, and you are now ignoring. 6 days isn't comparable to over 14 billion years, just for a start. There is nothing remotely scientific about the risible myth that makes claims about trees bearing magic fruit, and talking snakes.

"secondly I stated that evolution and religious evolution were similar both which are 2 thousand years apart"

And the claim is still laughably wrong. Nothing ahout the biblical creation myth is comparable to evolution of life, or the currentc scientific understanding of how our solar system formed. The myth couldn't even get the basic chronogy of events correct.

" science has predicted a cataclysmic event unless humanity changes its habits which religion has also predicted"

And this claim is also so stupid its risible, as the scientific explanation is objectively evidenced. The biblical myth of revelation of course is not. Again pointing at scientific evidence and claiming godidit isn't evidence, it's risible nonsense.

"the more science finds out about topics like the universe or evolution it seems to
snug up to religion quite well"

Rubbish, you're talking through your arse sorry. How does a superstitious myth claiming humans were created in an instant using unexplained magic just a few thousand years ago, reflect an evolution that took billions of years and saw humans evolve 150k years ago? That's a laughably stupid claim.

"Piggy backing on science I don't have to, the facts I've stated about science are obviously true like evolution and the Big Bang are still theories is it not Sheldon?"

No, you clearly don't know that the word theory in a scientific context is an abbreviation of scientific theory, and that when validated such theories explain objectively evidenced facts. Or that this represents the pinnacle of any scientific idea. Again only creationists make such basic errors about science.

No such evidence can be demonstrated for the vapid hokum in religious claims. They're as different as two beliefs could possibly be. Though you seem unaware of this.

"why not use science as a tool, atheists have been doing it for years."

Science is used as a tool, what on earth are you talking about? It also has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism, nor atheism with it. I am an atheist because no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity. I accept science because it is the best method we have for understanding reality and is based on the best objective empirically testable evidence. It's success in understanding the universe is manifest in everything it has done.

"To me it's all about learning and not to try and debunk atheists,"

Then pit your bible down and learn some basic facts about the scientific method, and how it works. Learn what logical fallacies are, and try to remove them from your reasoning, and spot them in others.

"I love reading about science "

I'm sorry but this isn't reflected in your posts which have used some of the most risible creationist cliches. Like describing evolution as 'just' a theory, implying it's not therefore a fact, as if it can't be both. Only creationists make such basic errors about scientific terms.

David Killens's picture
Jason, religion and science

Jason, religion and science do have the common theme that "back in the past was the beginning". But that's all they have in common because when you examine religious texts their description on how the universe worked is at odds with science. The bible got a few things right. But that same bible got a lot of stuff very wrong. Jason, you are ignoring the mistakes and only bringing to light a few simple common themes.

Jason1974's picture
Well apparently things can

Well apparently things can pop into existence from nothing why not a chicken, how about a monkey.

Let's face it religion will always be on earth and to best of our knowledge always has been. The same can be said about atheism I'd imagine. Science and religion are a long long way off to knowing the truth. Someone once said that atheism and theism will still be debating exactly the same thing hundreds of years from now and have been already for decades with no progress. Seems a waste of time.

Anyway good luck everybody and if you live near the sea I suggest to get the hell out of dodge.

Sapporo's picture
@Jason74 who said that things

@Jason74 who said that things can pop into existence from nothing?

Cognostic's picture
@ Jason Who said there was

@ Jason Who said there was nothing?
Energy hitting the Higgs Field manifests into matter. Where is this nothing you speak of? We have no example of nothing existing anywhere.

Sheldon's picture
Ah, I see you're going to

Ah, I see you're going to ignore every rebuttal, and just roll onto your next raft of claims like all the other vapid drive by proselytisers.

"apparently things can pop into existence from nothing why not a chicken, how about a monkey."

Or a diety from a bronze age superstition, unless you can demonstrate objective evidence for it and offer an objective explanation of where it came from and how it came to exist. Same rules apply after all. FWIW I have never ever heard an atheist claim things can pop into existence from nothing. only theists make this claim.

"Let's face it religion will always be on earth"

Evidence this claim please.

"to best of our knowledge always has been."

So what?

"Science and religion are a long long way off to knowing the truth. "

Science only deals in the best testable objective empirical evidence, religion can demonstrate no objective evidence for its claims. comparing the two is like comparing ancient Witch doctors to modern medicine.

"Someone once said that atheism and theism will still be debating exactly the same thing hundreds of years from now and have been already for decades with no progress. Seems a waste of time."

Then why come here?

" if you live near the sea I suggest to get the hell out of dodge."

Ironically Dodge is equispaced between the east and west coast, and your grasp of global warming is as tenuous as your grasp of evolution.

Cognostic's picture
RE: THE ORIGIN OF THE

RE: THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE.
1. You do not get to say the universe had an origin or even a beginning. You can not assert that it is not one more process in a long line of processes. You can not assert a god done it. You can not assert a multiverse. You can not assert anything past Plank Time as that is the extent of our knowledge. Physics breaks down a plank time and we have not made our way past it. Any assertion being made beyond Plank Time is pure hypothesis. The "Big Bang" is not a theory of cosmology (Creation of the universe.) It is a theory that adequately explains the "EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE."

2. RE: "Then of course the Big Bang, the begging, energy, matter came into existence."
Think about it. If the universe was a hot dense mass, what do you imagine actually came into existence that was not there before? We know that time, energy and our version of physics break down at Plank Time but that does not mean something was not there. We do not know. I love this quote and so I am going to use it again.

An atheist was talking to the Pope and as the conversation progressed the Pope got more and more angry. Finally the pope blurted out " You, you are like a blind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that isn't there." This is a wonderful summation of the atheist perspective. Atheists are completely okay with the idea that "We do not know." And so we keep looking.

The Atheist turned to the Pope and said. "I see we have a lot in common. You sir, are also like a blind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that isn't there. The difference between us is that you have found it." This perfectly sums up the Theist position. They actually believe they have found something. What they have actually done is magically create an answer and insert it into the void. This is known as the "God of the gaps" fallacy.

3. "Now you got to admit that the similarities are either a coincidence or science and religion are connected in some way?"

I have no idea at all how you managed to arrive at this conclusion from the "God of the Gaps." You are asserting that a made up- fictitious assumption is somehow connected to scientific inquiry. It makes no sense at all to me.

4. RE: "Can Science and God be comparable?"
Understand that the idea of God is a hypothesis that is not backed by facts or evidence. It is an assertion that was invented to explain things. There is no argument that can be asserted for the existence of the Christian God that can not be used for the Muslim God, The Hindu Gods, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Turtles all the way down, or Blue Universe Creating Bunnies. You can not assert a magical being into existence. Attempting to explain an enigma (the origin of the universe) with a greater enigma (A magical, all powerful, omnipotent, universe creating being who happened to make us in his image and who watches over us yet allows rape and murder to take place) is absurd.

Finally; it appears that you are using "Science" as a noun. This would be an equivocation fallacy. You are comparing science with a God. Science is a process. It is a process by which we understand the world around us. It requires observation, measurement, repeat-ability, demonstration, and repetition. Only then can something be said to exist or be real. Only then can we have justified true belief. Prior to that, people can believe anything they like and be wrong about it. All science does is test beliefs. So far the God belief has failed all scientific inquiry. There is no evidence for anything identified as God.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@OP,

@OP,

To answer your question, the Quran and science are 100% compatible. So yes they can be compatible. Actually, even in some cases the Quran was right while science was initially wrong and science only corrected itself overtime that is not end up only becoming true once it matched what the Quran said over 1400 years ago

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

You mean once the original verse had been bent and twisted and 'metaphorised' to match scientific fact. LOl you persist in this lameness when better minds than I have debunked your claims and the claims of others.

Fllying horses, visiting heaven...science pfft....who needs it? You have magic.

Cognostic's picture
Oh hell, NOT THIS BULLSHIT

Oh hell, NOT THIS BULLSHIT AGAIN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_LFByCaEaE

Just for a start.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "To answer your question,

Re: "To answer your question, the Quran and science are 100% compatible."

...*face palm*.... *grooooooan*.....

toto974's picture
And in fact, the industrial

And in fact, the industrial revolution get started in seventh-century Arabia, and one of the first caliph landed on the Moon and lauched an expedition to Proxima Centauri...

Sheldon's picture
If your magic book is

If your magic book is inerrant, why is so much effort invested to silence or kill its critics?

Sheldon's picture
"the Quran and science are

"the Quran and science are 100% compatible."

Is this the same science you rejected in your BS thread where you pretended to want "common ground"?

You still haven't even pretended to answer my questions, and it's been months...

s it ever moral for 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
What evidence can you demonstrate to support your belief that a deity exists?

toto974's picture
So many (voluntary?)

So many (voluntary?) misconceptions about scientific facts and method by our theist brethens... Are we not tired of "debating" the same things over and over with "SFT" and other would-be atheist-slayer that come here?

Sheldon's picture
We shouldn't be too hard on

We shouldn't be too hard on SFT, bless him. Then again the opinions he expressed on gender dysphoria were appalling bigotry. Scratch that we should be hard on him.

Ramo Mpq's picture
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Sheldon's picture
Anyone else notice that

Anyone else notice that theists who are seldom clear or cogent, become even more cryptic when their verbiage is debunked?

Cognostic's picture
When you can not support your

When you can not support your position with facts, baffle them with bullshit.

Sheldon's picture
"When you can not support

"When you can not support your position with facts, baffle them with bullshit."

You'd think we'd all be more baffled more of the time, given how well equipped SFT clearly is to baffle us.

Cognostic's picture
I'm clearly baffled by his

I'm clearly baffled by his ability to ignore the obvious.

David Killens's picture
Religion hands you a book of

Religion hands you a book of assertions, while science attempts to prove by observation and mathematics.

Of course both have their genesis stories, that is an inevitable process. But attempting to dovetail the religious genesis stories into science is just that, forceably shoehorning one scenario into another. But religion fails because many biblical genesis tales and attempts to explain the heavens have now been proven false.

The heavens are not supported by the mountains on the horizon. The sun and moon do not take daily flights across the heavens, and the heavens themselves are not immovable and fixed. Religion preached that.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Being pregnant and reading

Being pregnant and reading that a certain incredulous few cannot grasp very fundamental principles in cosmology, is as staggering as it is frustrating!!!! lol

Please, please, please, read a book other than the bible and try to understand what you're talking about, i.e. the big bang.

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