Ever since I was a kid, it always confuses me as to whom believers pray. I don't know if they are praying to god (whose name depends on the religion), to jesus, to the holy spirit. What's a holy spirit, anyway? And I don't get why some people actually believe in intercessions and asking god for something through Mary, Peter, Paul, or whichever saints and martyrs they could think of. This idea alone makes me realize that religion indeed is ridiculous. Isn't god a jealous god based on the stories written in the scriptures? It seems that he gets jealous when someone prays to a rival god but does not seem to mind when someone prays to his "allies".
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people in christianity either pay to saints, Mother Mary, Jesus or God Father at different times for different spiritual and material needs. I don't know anyone who prays to the holy spirit.
Well the 3 (god, jesus, holy spirit) are the same "thing", just in different forms, hence how they are the "Trinity" (tri means three, i think -inity may mean together" or powerful together" or something of that sort). So it really doesn't matter which one you pray to, because you are praying to the same "thing". Hopefully that helps.
So just one of them is not powerful enough?
In order to be succesfull as a religion, christanity, in the early days, adapted many items of the roman and egyptian believes. So christians can call upon many saints and angels for specific deseases and problems. As I understand it, they use there dedicated prayers to ask the saint or angel to present and negotiate there case/favor before that trinity. They 'pay' with offerings and promises. Not sure if they are 'allowed' to directly address the 3 gods.
I hope you do appreciate what you are talking about logically, because it appears you are contradicting yourself or just plain absurdity. If G,J,H are the same thing then you are saying G=J=H. It therefore means that a set containing these as elements has a cardinality of 1 not three. This also means that when J is here, there are no H and G anywhere simultaneously. It also means that it is the same thing with different names at different times.
This is the reason I ask why God impregnated Mary by himself, gave birth to himself and sacrificed himself to himself? otherwise they are different entities but you claim they are the same.
***tree comes rumbling up taps shoulder***
"Psst. Look at the dates..."
***tree rumbles away***
rmfr
If you want my opinion on the matter, here is what I found after years of research on this topic.
The trinity never made sens because it was a phrase taken literally after a huge bloody debate.
It originates from the pagan trinity, the 3 gods that were grouped together. but in the bible it was used allegorically to symbolize the 3 gods or 3 Flavian emperors being all the one messiah.
So each emperor had the right to rule, one after the other in succession.
Other phrases like "The son is the father" are all allegorically referring to the Flavians.
Since the first Flavian name(the father) was "Flavius Titus Vespasianus" and his son name was the same "Flavius Titus Vespasianus"
So any person living in the roman era and hears the phrase "The son is the father" he would immediately link the "coincidence" that the emperor fit that condition.
The Trinity is just referring to the "coincidence" that the 3 of Flavian emperors were called the One Messiah when they were emperors.
3 in one.
Any person living in the roman era would easily make the connection.
We are so far removed from that era that without knowledge of the propaganda campaign the Flavians made to keep the throne, we do not see the connection. (the church destroyed all records of this in history too)
But some evidence is still there, like;
-The early christian symbols are the Flavian symbols that the flavians put on their coins.
-So many of the Flavian members were saints.(eg: the first historical saint is Flavia Domatilla, the daughter or niece of Titus the emperor)
-The emperor was also anointed like Jesus.
-The emperor was also the chief priest of Rome (pontifix maximus). The same title of the pope today.
-In history for a long time the emperor was the pope until they split up later.
-All Flavian historians declare that the Messiah is no one else but Vespasian(the father) and his dynastic family.
-Flavius Vespasian(the father) just like Jesus also is said to heal the blind and makes miracles.
And much more.....
This leaves us with the conclusion that the Flavians either used Christianity as a propaganda tool and modified the text accordingly or they actually invented the text altogether.
With even deeper study of the text, there is no shadow of a doubt that the Flavians published and financed the gospels.
Though I leave it at that for now since it would go out of topic otherwise.
That's very interesting, I never knew that. Good post.
thanks
A more descriptive summery of it in a video can be found here:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/156142/Cesars_Messiah__The_Roman...
(hard to find a working video of this)
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Why complicate things when the truth is out there. There is only one religion out there that says "Dont associate partners with God" and that says That there are 4 Books that have been revealed by Messengers to Mankind. If One book had everything there woudnt be any other. If Zabur Book of David had everything that God wanted to reveal on mankind there woudnt be Taurah and Gospel. If Gospel had everything that God wanted to reveal then there was no need for the Holy Quran. But Quran has everything so there was no need for more.
The Quran says
“And We sent… Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah: We gave Him the Gospel” (Surah 5:35)
O you who have been given the Scripture! Believe in what We have revealed confirming what is (already) with you...Quran 4:47
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.Quran 2:23 -
Quran is a way of life. Without any confusion or misconception.
Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely, have found in it (the Quran) many contradictions. Quran 4:82
And your god is One God. There is no god but He, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Quran 2:163
Verily, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book for mankind in truth. So whosoever accepts the guidance, it is only for his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he goes astray only for his own loss.Quran 39:41
Jamal - "Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely, have found in it (the Quran) many contradictions"
You must know it is stuffed with contradictions, just like every other ancient religious writing; lying for J̶e̶s̶u̶s̶ Allah much? It isn't easy to prevent contractions when you are just making shit up. Isn't it interesting that religious people from all faiths tell the same lies, and use the same bad arguments?
To me it looks like you're using your own religion-book to 'prove' you are right and all the other believes are wrong.
Bad luck, other religions do just te same, even with simular arguments.
But as a way of life, you should keep your faith. It seems to give you happyness and satisfaction.
We seen to be attracting more religious people to this atheist forum. weird
Well, it's good I suppose. We can have some discussions with them.
Until recently there were so few theists that I was going to volunteer to become an honorary one, just so we could have a good argument.... I don't think I'd do very well though.
There was always Kenny.
So you believe the verses other than the one that talks about Contradiction. Its like accepting & agreeing with everything someone tells you and saying I disagree in the End.
I love Jesus - Isa PBUH - I love Mary - Maryam PBUH. I love Moses - Musa PBUH. (My Sons named after Him).. I love David PBUH - I Love all the messengers that Almighty sent to us. I believe them all. They all had ONE Message for The Mankind. I believe in All The Books. What is the Message of All the Books including Quran? Lets Leave the Messengers debate aside. Lets Focus on the Real Message Please. For once.
Quran very clearly says:
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,- (Surah Al-Imran, 33)
Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? (Surah Al-Imran, 65)
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. (Surah Al-Imran, 67)
Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Messenger and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith. (Surah Al-Imran, 68)
And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous (Surah Al-Baqara, 130)
(Verily, Ibrahim was an Ummah (or a nation), obedient to Allah, Hanif (i.e. to worship none but Allah), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrikin (polytheists), (He was) thankful for His (Allah's) favors. He (Allah) chose him and guided him to a straight path. And We gave him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he shall be of the righteous. Then, We have sent the revelation to you (O Muhammad saying): "Follow the religion of Ibrahim ( to worship none but Allah) and he was not of the Mushrikin(who associate) (16:120-123)
Who did Abraham prayed to and bowed to. One Almighty. He didn't associate any partners with Almighty. Nor did Moses or Noah or Adam. Nor did Muhammad Pbuh or Jesus Pbuh. Their message was same. To submit to one and only Almighty God.
Quran says: "Say ye, "We believe in Allah and the Revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Ismail, I`saac, Yakub and the Tribes and that given to Musa and I`sa (Jesus) and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we submit to Allah." (2:136)
"And Zakariya and Yahya and I`sa (Jesus) and Ilyas : All in the ranks of the Righteous." (6:85)
The Quran also states that Jesus, like Adam, was created :
"She said, O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has ever touched me.?" Even so, Allah created what He wills, when He has decreed a matter, He but says to it, "BE!" and it is!" (3:47)
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, "BE!" and he was." (3:59)
The following verses prove that Jesus could not be the son of God :
"No son did Allah beget, nor is there any God along with Him. (If there were many gods), behold each god would have taken away, that he had created and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him." (23:91)
"He begetteth not, nor is He begotten." (112:3)
The following verse highlights the fact that I`sa confirmed the Divine messages received before him :
"(I have come to you) To attest the Torah, which was before me and to make lawful to you, part of what was (before) forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me!" (3:50)
The fact that Jesus was not one of three persons within a multiple deity, is confirmed by the following Quranic statements :
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of Allah ought but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him, so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not, "Three," desist, it will be better for you, for Allah is One God, Glory be to Him (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And enough is Allah as a Dispose of Affairs." (4:171)
"They disbelieve who say, "Allah is one of three (trinity) for there is no God, except One God. If they desist not from their word (for blasphemy), verily a grievious chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them." (5:73)
Jamal - "So you believe the verses other than the one that talks about Contradiction. Its like accepting & agreeing with everything someone tells you and saying I disagree in the End."
No not at all. If your son came home missing 1 shoe and told you
A) a dog took it from him
but then later told you:
B) it wasn't a dog, a bully took it from him.
We don't need to believe either story to know the stories contradict each other. Notice that the instant you start defending your religion, you seem unable to understand the simplest of logic, which should give you great pause.
Stop the mankind stuff. You are not talking in the mosque. The book itself is looked upon with doubt for it contradictions and atrocities against humanity. Tell me, how did any of you holding these books come to kno about the God mentioned in?
Dear Brother,
Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely, have found in it (the Quran) many contradictions. Quran 4:82
Go through it again. Quran says it has no contradictions "IN IT". It tells about the books that were revealed before it but also says they are not present in their original form anymore whereas Quran is in its original form and thus has no contradiction whatsoever "IN IT".
The Quran says very clearly in Chapter 112:
Allah in the name of The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him."
Now find me anything where it contradicts to it in the "QURAN'.
I can find you hundreds that go with it in the Holy Quran.
Quran says about Taurat and Bible:
Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)
Holy Quran Chapter 5 Surah Al Maidah verse 13: Then they (the Jews) broke their covenant and because of this We deprived them of Our Mercy, and hardened their hearts. Now they have become so degenerate that they distort the words of the Scriptures so as to change their meanings completely.
The Hadith (sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad in Islam) as well point out to Biblical Corruption. Consider these hadith:
The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136) (Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 12)
Some scholars say so many revisions occurred in the 100 years following Jesus' death that no one can be absolutely sure of the accuracy or authenticity of the Gospels, especially of the words the authors attributed to Jesus himself.
-Jeffery L. Sheler,
Even the Biblical book of Jeremiah clearly states that the scribes of the ancient Israelites altered the revealed scriptures given to the Israelites by Allah, and thus changed them “into a lie”.
" 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8 New International Version)
So in conclusion, one can see that the Quran maintains that the books of the Jews and Christians have been corrupted, altered and edited over time. When the Quran talks about the Torah, Psalms and the Gospel it is speaking about the original versions given to Moses, David and Jesus. It is not talking about the current Torah, Psalms and the Four Canonical Gospels we have today.
The Quran says :
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. [Quran 3:187]
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.[Quran 5:15]
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse[Quran 2:159]
Jamal .....
Forgive my interrupting your preaching ...... but I'm reading your posts as you saying ...there are no contradictions in the Quran ??
But surely ...you are overlooking 79:27 ... "Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ?"
& 79:30 ... "And after that He spread the earth."
Allah creating heaven...then earth... fair enough .
But then what is this ??
41:9 "Him Who created the earth in two Days"
& 41:12 "Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ...."
so Sura 79 says Heaven then Earth while Sura 41 says its Earth then Heaven....
Now that looks an awful lot like a contradiction.
And then again what of Sura 39:4 ,"If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created."
So Allah could have a son.
and Sura 6:101 ,"The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?"
but then again Allah cannot have a child......
how very contradictory.
Let him beleve that some devine entity handed the original text to Moses and/or David and/or Jesus.
From there on, it seems the entity didn't care for an update.
It looks to me like the first edition was written by a very clever (group of) men.
My dear brother Watchman,
Im glad you asked me something from the Quran, I hope you and science have no doubts about the creations of Heaven and the Earth. Now coming to the point as we know Quran tells about many creations in different chapters and different verses. The fact that creation of Heavens and The Earth is told in detail is just like I say I Made Cake & Coffe with Floor, Milk and Eggs and Sugar. Or I Made Coffe and Cake with Milk, Eggs, Sugar and Floor. You wouldn't call it contradiction in fact its one of the same thing. Whatever You say I made it. Not you not John nor James.
Now Oops my brothers did you miss or overlook something really BIG while you mentioned verses 41:9 and 41:12. Why didn't you quote 41:11 my dear brother??
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
So it means that both came into being and its not written FIRST , SECONDLY , THIRDLY. No Sequence is not given that way.
Allah says in the beginning of this verse that those who exploit this information contained in this passage to raise doubts about its authenticity are equally interested in promulgating blasphemy and denying His unity. Allah is telling us that in course of time, there will emerge unbelievers who will make use of this apparent contradiction.
Verse 11 and 12 says, moreover the heavens were created in 2 days. The Arabic word used in the beginning of verse 11 of Surah Fussilat is summa which means; ‘then’ or ‘moreover’.
Allah, may He be exalted, created the earth first, before the heaven, but it was not spread. Then He rose over towards the heaven and fashioned it as seven heavens in two days, then He spread the earth after that, and placed in it mountains, rivers and so on.
So the creation of the earth itself came before the creation of the heavens, and then came the spreading of the earth with its mountains, trees and so on, after the creation of the heavens.
This is indicated by the fact that He says: “And after that He spread the earth” [an-Naazi‘aat 79:30] and He did not say that He created it. Then He explained what is meant by spreading it by saying: “And brought forth therefrom its water and its pasture” [an-Naazi‘aat 79:31]. The way in which it has been reconciled between these two verses is clear and there is no problem with it, as may be understood from the apparent meaning of the Holy Qur’an. End quote.
@Jamal...
Just a couple of points.....
!/ I aint your brother.
2/ You claim no contradiction in this verse (41) and yet to refute my claim you found it necessary to resort to the Islam Question and Answer website....which seems to have several questioners who also see this verse as contradictory.
link:
http://islamqa.info/en/70217
Also ...the same site is quoted on the Ummah ,On-line Muslim Community forum.....
link:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?442797-Losing-my-faith-because...(Surah-Fussilat-41-9-12)-need-help/page5
Where again ,it appears that several posters also see these verses as contradictory.
and yes ...you are right ...I omitted verse 11...it was irrelevant to my point .
I ' m sorry I still claim these verses as contradictory.
Your reference to the multiple meanings of Arabic words used in this verse also is also surely a contradiction of the several verses which claim the Quran is given in "plain Arabic" for the sake of clarity.
Allah can do anything he wants. Dear watchman how badly you are caught quoting Quran and trying to create a confusion. You quoted 6:101 but you didnt quote it all. You skipped the later half. after this you've proved your credibility and your sources. The whole verse goes like this
[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.
Jamal, you keep using gender-specific pronouns when referring to your god (six of them in the post above). How do you know your god is a male? If your god is not a male, why do you not use feminine pronouns?
@Jamal....
Quite correct ....well spotted.....I did not ,indeed ,include the whole verse...... again because it has no bearing on my point that the two verses contradict each other....39:4 . indicates that Allah COULD have a son if he so wished. while verse 6:100-101 indicates ,as you have pointed out ,that Allah being "alone" CANNOT have a son.
You see....contradictory.
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, "BE!" and he was." (3:59) Quran
@Jamal ...
You say ,"He created him from dust".....now ,I don't want to be pedantic......BUT.....
25:54 ......And He it is Who hath created man from water
96:1&2....In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot
16:4 .......He hath created man from a drop of fluid.
...now I'm sure you know there are 4 more verses that say man was made from clay , only 3 verses that say dust , and even 1 that says it was "mire".
Now I'd be interested to see if you claim these are not contradictions.
Allah made heavens and the earth. Angels and Humans/Jinn. He is ONE. Has has no father nor any son. There is no one like him. I see no contradiction in it. Because it is the Word of God.
@Jamal ...
This "Allah" you keep mentioning.....
Is this the same Allah that was worshipped at Mecca ,at the Kaaba .....before the birth of Mohamed . ?
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