Proof for the Torah

252 posts / 0 new
Last post
Proud Jewish boy's picture
You are quoting bible critics

You are quoting bible critics who place the Torah much later than was actually. I believe in the Torah (for reasons we are discussing) which dates itself to 3,250 years ago.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - I believe

Proud Jewish boy - I believe in the Torah (for reasons we are discussing) which dates itself to 3,250 years ago.

Might as well believe in Spiderman, because the Spiderman comic portrays it as the truth.

edit: I think you have hit the nail on the head. It seems you believe the Torah because you believe the Torah. I can assure you, that isn't likely to convince anyone here.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
My belief in Torah is NOT

My belief in Torah is NOT based on the premises that it is 3,300 years old - that was just a side point you decided to attack. Even if granted the Torah may be 2,500-2,800 years old, as bible critics claim, my evidence of Deuteronomy 28 is still intact!
Do you have a response to it or not?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - Even if

Proud Jewish boy - Even if granted the Torah may be 2,500-2,800 years old, as bible critics claim, my evidence of Deuteronomy 28 is still intact!

Right, it isn't a direct criticism of your argument, it is a criticism of you; that you play fast and loose. BTW I thought you might enjoy this:

Jewish Encyclopedia -
It is the unanimous opinion of modern critics that Deuteronomy is not the work of Moses, but that it was, in its main parts, written in the seventh century B.C.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
As of now you are the one

As of now you are the one that is losing as you still haven't answered my evidence from Deuteronomy 28. This is a childish fight, but you began it..
Btw, I don't get what you're showing me: "it's the unanimous opinion of modern CRITICS that Deuteronomy is not..."
Let me tell you something: it's the unanimous opinion of modern believers that Deuteronomy was written by Moses..
Anyways, do you have a response to my argument or not?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - As of now

Proud Jewish boy - As of now you are the one that is losing

Really? What is the score?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
The score is that I presented

The score is that I presented an argument that you so far didn't answer. Anyway, you were the one who started by saying that I'm the looser...

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - it's the

Proud Jewish boy - it's the unanimous opinion of modern believers that Deuteronomy was written by Moses

That is false; as I have several family members who are Jewish (by descent and religion) and none of them think Moses wrote 1 word of the bible.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
How does that even make sense

How does that even make sense?! Deuteronomy itself states that Moses wrote it. So if you are a BELIEVER (notice that's the word I previously used) in Torah, then by default you must believe that Moses wrote the book. Simple logic.
Anyways, idk what makes your relatives "religious" if they're missing basic tenants in Judaism. They sound more like reform Jews to me..

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - idk what

Proud Jewish boy - idk what makes your relatives "religious" if they're missing basic tenants in Judaism. They sound more like reform Jews to me

Reform Judaism is a religious denomination. I don't know what else to tell you. You might not agree with them or whatever, but they are a religion.

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

So Moses wrote Deuteronomy. He was a real whiz kid because he also wrote about how he died and was buried and no one knows the specific site of his grave. And after he was taking a dirt nap he had his story published at the local print shop. It's a good thing the printer didn't use rock slabs as the medium.

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

According to the Jewish calendar the world is only 5,777 years old and we know that's BS.

xenoview's picture
PBJ

PBJ
What verse in Deuteronomy 28 are prophetic?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Destruction of the land is

Destruction of the land is mentioned in verses 49-57.
Deuteronomy 28:49.
The exile of the Jewish nation is foretold in verses 32, 36, 37, 63.
See verses 64; 30:3-4.
See verses 65-67.
See verses 62-63.
See Leviticus 26:44

But you must read those two posts to get the shocker

LogicFTW's picture
Why is the standard of proof

Why is the standard of proof for disproving god (what came first?) different than the standard of proof for proving god? (See everything complex and amazing? That is proof! My god idea gets credit!)

Especially when atheist is simple lack of. Where a god with all this powerful is anything but simple and makes enormous claims?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
You need to explain yourself.

You need to explain yourself. I can't get what you're saying. Perhaps write slower, use more commas and make shorter sentences. Thank you

Proud Jewish boy's picture
But if I understand what you

But if I understand what you're saying, you are saying that the burden of proof is on the claimants who want to add God to the picture. I totally agree and that's what I've come to do.

xenoview's picture
Romans did take jews as

Romans did take jews as slaves, but they didn't enslave all the jews.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
It doesn't say that they will

It doesn't say that they will enslave the Jews. It is actually clear from some verses that that's not the case. notice that I didn't write slavery as one of the prophecies.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
For convenience purposes, I

For convenience purposes, I will repost my main argument:

PROPHECIES:
1) DESTRUCTION: It indeed came about in the year 69 A.C.E. when the Romans invaded the land. Josephus describes at length this invasion and destruction. It was a ruthless one, killing at least 2 million Jews. [Interestingly enough, the Torah describes "The Lord will lift against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth" - this was indeed the case with Rome which came from afar. The verse finishes off “as an eagle will swoop" - this is possibly hinting to the famous golden eagle replicas the Roman legions would raise in battle. Another verse says it will be "a nation unknown to you and your fathers". This was a great description for Rome which was a new Empire that hadn't existed up until right before their invasion of the Land (which began some years before the final destruction along with the Temple). It was a nation unheard of in history before its establishment at that time when a few tribes combined to form Rome. Another description is that its language would be unknown to the Jews, something which also turned out as predicted, as the Roman language, Latin was unknown to the East.] This is no(t such an) amusement of its own but is a lead-up to the upcoming surprises.
2) EXILE: Destruction is natural, all throughout human history. What about exile? Also somewhat common. How about a full nation being exiled? Now that's rare. It has only happened to a handful of nations. Surprisingly, one of these rare full nations were the Jews, and the Torah predicted it! But let's take it even further:
3) DISPERSION: Whenever people are exiled they are settled in one place. The Jews, however, have an interesting one; they are dispersed in the four corners of the earth! To which other nation did this happen to? Not in any history records.
4) PERSECUTION: The Torah describes our troubles in exile. There's no need to specify here, for you can open up any Jewish-history book and see how clearly this prophecy was fulfilled.
5) FEW IN NUMBER: The Jews were small in number up until about recent times. Even now we are relatively small (both relative to what we could/should have been without the exile and relative in comparison to other nations and religions).
6) IDENTITY: Whenever people are exiled, they assimilate – immediately. After all, it's only natural that you blend into your society. Something very strange was predicted and indeed happened to the Jews - they kept their Jewish identity for 2,000 years! While being exiled (prediction 2)! Dispersed throughout the whole world (prediction 3)! And under constant persecution (prediction 4)! And while being few in number (prediction 5)! Nature simply colliding with itself!
7) TORAH: "For it (Torah) shall not be forgotten from your descendants" . Torah was indeed preserved (to the exact version) throughout all the exile. Each Jewish community, from all corners of the world, all coming out with the same Torah. Our Torah is the same as the ones found in the Dead Sea Scrolls dated to 2,000 years ago (at length in subchapter “Accuracy of the Torah Text”). Our Torah survived the 2,000 years of persecution! How can a nation which is exiled, dispersed, few in number and under constant persecution preserve their writings?
8) AGRICULTURE: Israel was once a fertile power-house, as described numerously in the Torah, nicknamed "the land of milk and honey". Josephus also attests to this fertility of Israel at his times in his writings. Archaeology as well approves this, Israel once being part of "the Fertile Crescent". After the Jews left, however, things clearly changed, the once lush-green forest covered mountains are now desert or swamp; a desolate land indeed. Ever-since, no nationality took hold of any part of Israel, as the agriculture was very un-sustaining for the residence. Only a very minor population of mixed-multitudes took haven in Israel ; the once fought-over land was now a mere bridge for the continents. Mark Twain [a non-Jew and self-proclaimed agnostic was a famous writer. He] wrote after his visit to the Holy Land (in 1899) "It's like a land waiting for the return of its people".
9) RETURN: The return of the Jews to Israel - their homeland is the beginning of the fulfillment of a prophecy foretold long ago. We have indeed seen a taste of this recently as millions of Jews rose to the Holy Land, to reclaim it once more. Of course, this doesn't mean that the redemption began (for the Messiah is needed for that), but that we're seeing a taste (for most of the Jews are still not in Israel) of the ultimate completion of the return of the captives to Israel, right before it actually happens in completeness upon the arrival of the Messiah. The world was so shocked that a nation exiled, dispersed, and tortured for 2,000 years has managed to finally return to their land they for so long longed-for. They should have been shocked 3,300 years ago when it was prophesied.

Nyarlathotep's picture
smells like spam, tastes like

smells like spam, tastes like spam...and you didn't even make any corrections! sigh.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Nyarlathotep, so far you were

Nyarlathotep, so far you were the only rational guy I've had a discussion with here. Plz don't get influenced by your fellow atheists - let's talk logically!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Plz don't get influenced by

Plz don't get influenced by your fellow atheists - let's talk logically!

First off, I'm my own man. I don't need to impress anyone here.

If you want to "talk logically" (not 100% sure what that means, but OK) perhaps you should start by seriously addressing or withdrawing your claim that the Torah correctly predicted that the full nation would be exiled; because we both know that didn't happen. Because I will not consider reading any more of your argument until you remove that falsehood. Garbage in, garbage out.

Pitar's picture
The champions of theism

The champions of theism always cobble together a litany of nonsense from the source of nonsense for the purpose of preaching it....yet again. I suppose it can be interesting but it's usually the same old tripe from new minds with youthful enthusiasm and an alchemist's approach to the topic.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Do you have a response to my

Do you have a response to my argument or not? Don't try to avoid it!

Randomhero1982's picture
Evidence in the form of just

Evidence in the form of just one book... I have five next to me... doesn't mean there is an invisible sky fairy.

Where is actually evidence that can be tested and pier reviewed.

All holy books are essentially like Wikipedia, and should be made to start with "my mate reckons!".

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Apparently, you're having

Apparently, you're having difficulty understanding my post. But what you said just sounded so stupid! I encourage you to actually read and understand my previous post. Good luck!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - what you

Proud Jewish boy - what you said just sounded so stupid

ah yes, argument by insult

Proud Jewish boy's picture
SO DO YOU ATHEISTS HAVE A

SO DO YOU ATHEISTS HAVE A RATIONAL RESPONSE TO MY ARGUMENT OR NOT?

Sky Pilot's picture
You know what the Bible says

You know what the Bible says about Jewish fairy tales =

Titus 1:14 (CEV) = "Don’t pay any attention to any of those senseless Jewish stories and human commands. These are made up by people who won’t obey the truth."

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.