Purpose

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ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Sapporo said:

Sapporo said:

An accurate descriptor for such things would be groundless speculation or conjecture.

Ironically, the internet/computer, things which you used to communicate your message above, were hypothesized prior to their creation.

Sapporo's picture
You seem to be confusing

You seem to be confusing invention using known phenomena with pure speculation based on no observation whatsoever.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Sapporo said:

Sapporo said:

You seem to be confusing invention using known phenomena with pure speculation based on no observation whatsoever.

1.) Recall that you have demonstrated (in the "Reference-A" below) that you confused the "teleological argument" (an argument for supposed creators of our universe), with "teleology in biology/teleonomy (purpose in the scope of biology/evolution etc)".

1.b) Reference-A: Your false claim, that I had supposedly argued for the existence of supposed creators of our universe.

1.c) Reference-B: My response to your false claim, showing evidence of purpose in the context of science.

1.d) You are yet to admit your error, and I detect that is where your false claims originate from.

Sheldon's picture
Far more things were

Far more things were hypothesised that were complete nonsense. What separates them, and the achievements you have cited is scientific rigour.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Sheldon said:

Sheldon said:

Far more things were hypothesized that were complete nonsense. What separates them, and the achievements you have cited is scientific rigour.

I don't detect the relevance of your remark above.

Sheldon's picture
"I don't detect the relevance

"I don't detect the relevance of your remark above."

Well don't feel too bad, simple sentences are obviously not your thing. You prefer overblown pseudoscientific flimflam, and the pretence it contains some profound but esoteric message that the hoi polloi can only marvel at but never comprehend. Keep trying though, you might get there.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Sheldon said:

Sheldon said:

Well don't feel too bad, simple sentences are obviously not your thing. You prefer overblown pseudoscientific flimflam, and the pretence it contains some profound but esoteric message that the hoi polloi can only marvel at but never comprehend. Keep trying though, you might get there.

1.) As per my invention "non-beliefism", I don't subscribe to pseudoscience.

2.) I do however observe that your prior remark remains irrelevant.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
The BlindWatchmaker said:

The BlindWatchmaker said:

Oh dear it gets worse for PGJ!

So now his what he calls a hypothesis, not only is supported by an unproven paper by Matos Et Al and Ramon Guevarra,
Which the latter has said "hasn't been tested enough" and wouldn't personally call it entropy.

And then you post this, "A different meaning of the term hypothesis is used in formal logic, to denote the antecedent of a proposition; thus in the proposition "If P, then Q", P denotes the hypothesis (or antecedent); Q can be called a consequent. P is the assumption in a (possibly counterfactual) What If question."

So essentially you admit, you have no scientific hypothesis and that you're essentially asking, "what if".

But yet, We are supposed to accept your quips as being on the whole, reasonable.

Remember, The burden of evidence is on you! Great claims demand extraordinary evidence, And you have failed to meet this standard. You quote mine and rely on theories papers(one in particular that the co-author, says requires more testing) and the unproven supersymmetry, to support a claim that human purpose it to create artificial general intelligence.

And still you offer none of your own independent testing/results/data to confirm the papers(and didn't investigate its possible failures), you've not offered any causal link to how ALL humans are working towards this goal.

Well thanks for wasting everyone's with your unfounded silliness.

1.) Remember that Guevarra et al had composed a later version of the paper, with quite similar equations, as I had pointed out before, although you ignored that.

1.b) Reference: Consciousness as a global property of brain dynamic activity

2.) Did you actually read Wikipedia/hypothesis?

3.) If you did, you would quickly see that my hypothesis possesses ingredients as specified on that page.

4.) There are demonstrably smart people that detect my "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network" as straight forward. That you are unable to process my work, does not suddenly warrant that it is invalid!

4.b) Reference: Discussions with PHD Phyisicist Garret Lisi, and PHD Computer Scientist Eray, wrt my work

5.) You constantly ignore the Wikipedia sources presented to you, and express your opinions on the matter, contrary to evidence. That is not how science works, Science may not care about your feelings!

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
1) And yet his comments stand

1) And yet his comments stand and he as not altered his stance.
1.b) Irrelevant to my point
2) yes, have you.
3) your thought experiment is an attempt at a hypothesis which offers no causal link to how ALL humans are working on the same goal.
4) Irrelevant. Is supersymmetry a fact? a scientific law? has is ever yielded any proof/evidence? No, it has not.
4b) Irrelevant, Due to the above, Supersymmetry has no actually hard evidence to support it.
5) I do not express an opinion, they are facts, your thought experiment is what is actually simply your opinion. Science cares about facts.

To the point yet again, Let us look at the facts of your opinion.

- It is founded on a paper that is not provn
- Guevarra has stated he wouldn't call it entropy, and that it hasn't been tested enough
- Hasn't passed peer review
- Very minimal number of test subjects
- You rely on supersymmetry
- Supersymmetry has no evidence to support it, and failed every test that has been attempted, including at the LHC.
- And most importantly, you do not empirically demonstrate how all humans from the dawn of mankind to the present and future, are working towards the goal of creating an AGI.

Science doesn't care about your feelings/thoughts, simply facts.

Now please stop spamming, you have churned this rubbish on every forum and site on the internet, and no one is buying it.

Spamming according to the main page on the forum, is against the forum rules.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
We attach our own meaning

We attach our own meaning/purpose to this world,

My hypothesis aims to be objective, rather than subjective.

Sapporo's picture
Your teleological argument is

Your teleological argument is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Your teleological argument is

Your teleological argument is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics.

1.) Can you cite where in my hypothesis I had supposedly described any such teleological argument, for the existence of theistic Gods/supposed creators of our cosmos?

2.) Why would an atheist such as myself employ a teleological argument i.e. for the existence of theistic Gods/supposed creators of our cosmos?

3.) Perhaps you were referring to teleology in biology, or teleonomy?

4.) Furthermore, why would a hypothesis based on entropy maximization, be supposedly contrary to the laws of thermodynamics? (As per your claim)

4.b) Reference: Wikipedia/Maximum Entropy Thermodynamics

Sapporo's picture
Giving purpose to a closed

Giving purpose to a closed system is necessarily contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, because it adds information above and beyond the system. Assigning a purpose is necessarily teleological.

Your conjecture is not falsifiable. It isn't even something which can be derived from observation. It does not qualify as a hypothesis.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Giving purpose to a closed

Giving purpose to a closed system is necessarily contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, because it adds information above and beyond the system. Assigning a purpose is necessarily teleological.

Your conjecture is not falsifiable. It isn't even something which can be derived from observation. It does not qualify as a hypothesis.

1.) Your entire response above is "not even wrong".

2.) It is reasonably clear by now, that you have demonstrated (in "Reference-A" below) that you confused the "teleological argument" (an argument for supposed creators of our universe), with "teleology in biology/teleonomy (purpose in the scope of biology/evolution etc)".

3.) Reference-A: Your false claim, that I had supposedly argued for the existence of supposed creators of our universe.

4.) Reference-B: My response to your false claim, showing evidence of purpose in the context of science.

5.) Reference-C: (See falsifiability wrt my hypothesis here.)

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Your entire premise is the

Your entire premise is the absolute definition of "not even wrong"

Firstly 'your hypothesis' is simply trying to make a claim using papers as your foundations that are not scientific laws and very much in their infancy.

The Matos Et Al paper we have discovered is not peer reviewed, has minimal test subjects, isn't statistically analysed and its co-author last publically stated it shouldn't be call entropy and far more testing is required.

The paper by Jeremy England is disputed, Including his very own professor, Eugene Shakhnovich. Who acknowledging Englands talent in the field, but adds regarding his paper, "Any claims that it has to do with biology or the origins of life, are pure and shameless speculations.”

Professor Rahul Sarpeshkar also comments on it, "It would be nice to have some concrete physical instantiation of these abstract constructs" He hopes to see the simulations re-created in real experiments, perhaps using biologically relevant chemicals and energy sources such as glucose that are necessary but not sufficient.

Other experts have said, an important next step for England and his collaborators would be to scale up their chemical reaction network and to see if it still dynamically evolves to rare fixed points of extreme forcing.

So again, Another pillar to your 'hypothesis' that is not proven and disputed among the community.

So moving away from the sources that you cite which are far from being scientifically concrete, You make the bold claim that your precious paper is scientifically objective, if this was true you ought to eliminate personal biases, a priori commitments, emotional involvement.

Also there would be scientific measurement, as the accuracy of a measurement can be tested independent from the individual scientist.

To be properly considered objective, the results of measurement must be communicated from person to person,
and then demonstrated for third parties.

You offer absolutely no results of measurements, data or tests that you have done, to causally link all these papers, to show that every human in existence, from babies that don't make it to day one, to humans who hit the century mark, are purposefully working toward the goal of AGI.

Furthermore, as recently touched on with you requiring supersymmetry to play a role in your hypothesis, This theory has still to this day never shown any positive results. It is completely without evidence to support it.
It has failed every single test that its put in for, including at the LHC.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
TheBlindwatchmaker said:

TheBlindwatchmaker said:

Your entire premise is the absolute definition of "not even wrong"

Firstly 'your hypothesis' is simply trying to make a claim using papers as your foundations that are not scientific laws and very much in their infancy.

The Matos Et Al paper we have discovered is not peer reviewed, has minimal test subjects, isn't statistically analysed and its co-author last publically stated it shouldn't be call entropy and far more testing is required.

The paper by Jeremy England is disputed, Including his very own professor, Eugene Shakhnovich. Who acknowledging Englands talent in the field, but adds regarding his paper, "Any claims that it has to do with biology or the origins of life, are pure and shameless speculations.”

Professor Rahul Sarpeshkar also comments on it, "It would be nice to have some concrete physical instantiation of these abstract constructs" He hopes to see the simulations re-created in real experiments, perhaps using biologically relevant chemicals and energy sources such as glucose that are necessary but not sufficient.

Other experts have said, an important next step for England and his collaborators would be to scale up their chemical reaction network and to see if it still dynamically evolves to rare fixed points of extreme forcing.

So again, Another pillar to your 'hypothesis' that is not proven and disputed among the community.

So moving away from the sources that you cite which are far from being scientifically concrete, You make the bold claim that your precious paper is scientifically objective, if this was true you ought to eliminate personal biases, a priori commitments, emotional involvement.

a.) New theories/hypotheses ought to be scrutinized. While you cite scientists that dispute the papers I cited, I see you've conveniently excluded that scientists detect that the papers are sensible. (Perhaps to suit your false claims)

b.) Why did you exclude those?

c.) Don't you recognize that that's how science works?

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Also there would be

Also there would be scientific measurement, as the accuracy of a measurement can be tested independent from the individual scientist.

To be properly considered objective, the results of measurement must be communicated from person to person,
and then demonstrated for third parties.

You offer absolutely no results of measurements, data or tests that you have done, to causally link all these papers, to show that every human in existence, from babies that don't make it to day one, to humans who hit the century mark, are purposefully working toward the goal of AGI.

1.) What benefit do you derive from ignoring evidence? Why ignore the evidence that contrasts your claim above, in my prior response (See source)?

2.) Furthermore, a majority of your argument has occured while ignoring the reality that purpose need not be subjective. Until you admit your error, where you reasonably confused the "teleological argument" (an argument for supposed creators of our universe), with "teleology in biology/teleonomy (purpose in the scope of biology/evolution etc)", you won't be able to process my hypothesis!

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Science works by producing

Science works by producing testable, measureable results to support the hypothesis made, of which, you have done no such thing.

Ignoring evidence, I'm the one actually producing evidence! lol

Your ignorance is quaint.

Furthermore, in reply to your last paragraph of utter nonsense, do not Straw-man my position, I have made no argument that purpose IS subjective! The only claim I have made on the topic was:

"i'm drawn to a quote by Nobel prize winning physiologist Albert Szent Gyorgyi who said, "Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest".

So please don't be stupid enough to think people cannot process your 'hypothesis' because it is fairly straight forward but it is unsubstantiated.

Let us go over some more points, in this thread alone you have called your paper a 'hypothesis', a 'scientific hypothesis' and referred to it as a 'hypothesis' in the sense of a 'what if' situation.

So essentially you don't appear to know what your paper actually is! In reality it comes across more as a thought experiment or a logical argument, and if it is the later then i would say that your 'hypothesis' requirement for supersymmetry allows one to dismiss your entire argument.

If you have a premise that is propped up by the theory of supersymmetry, then we can dismiss it, as it has no evidence as theory to support it.

Scientific claims can sometimes be made to be reasonable, for example when people claim the position of an electron.
It may appear reasonable but the claim is unsupported and not true.

fishy1's picture
Again, we could only have a

Again, we could only have a purpose if we were created. But since we are only hear by completely random chance, their is no purpose, except any purpose we place on ourselves.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Hi Fishy1,

Hi Fishy1,

I would say in my opinion, that is where the evidence points too.
But I would be happy to change my mind as and when the relevant data comes in.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Science works by producing

Science works by producing testable, measureable results to support the hypothesis made, of which, you have done no such thing.

Ignoring evidence, I'm the one actually producing evidence! lol

Your ignorance is quaint.

Furthermore, in reply to your last paragraph of utter nonsense, do not Straw-man my position, I have made no argument that purpose IS subjective! The only claim I have made on the topic was:

"i'm drawn to a quote by Nobel prize winning physiologist Albert Szent Gyorgyi who said, "Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest".

So please don't be stupid enough to think people cannot process your 'hypothesis' because it is fairly straight forward but it is unsubstantiated.

Let us go over some more points, in this thread alone you have called your paper a 'hypothesis', a 'scientific hypothesis' and referred to it as a 'hypothesis' in the sense of a 'what if' situation.

So essentially you don't appear to know what your paper actually is! In reality it comes across more as a thought experiment or a logical argument, and if it is the later then i would say that your 'hypothesis' requirement for supersymmetry allows one to dismiss your entire argument.

If you have a premise that is propped up by the theory of supersymmetry, then we can dismiss it, as it has no evidence as theory to support it.

Scientific claims can sometimes be made to be reasonable, for example when people claim the position of an electron.
It may appear reasonable but the claim is unsupported and not true.

1.) Many here like you, had already started on the wrong foot; they posited that purpose could merely be subjective or ignored that purpose may be objective.

2.) Reference: Telology in biology/teleonomy

3.) Your words: "Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest".

3.b) My response: It sounds like the electron is exercising some purpose. As Wikipedia/Teleology in biology or teleonomy expressses, organisms may undergo purpose or goal-directed paradigms.

3.c) Why is it supposedly infeasble for the human species to compound some purpose as well?

4.) Have you worked on any hypotheses or theories of your own?

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Wrong again, Honestly. The

Wrong again, Honestly. The number of logical fallacies you have committed in this thread alone is quite astonishing.

Not my words, they are the words of nobel prize winning physiologist Albert Szent Gyorgyi.
I simply stated how it stuck a chord, more for its eloquence then anything else.

Please get your facts straight, this is becoming rather dull.

But for the record, Electrons are a wonder of nature, a sub atomic particle involved in practically everything.
They play an essential role or participate in numerous physical phenomena, chemistry, thermal conductivity, magnetism, electricity and also plays a participating role in things such as electromagnetic, weak interactions and gravitational.

However, Purpose isn't something I would equate to the electron, and doesn't describe the essence of the electron.

I would say it just 'is', you cannot even determine what the true position or motion of an electron is, there is no such thing.
If you observe it, you will see it in a positon, however, that is not the fundamental essence of the electron.
There is wave function or a quantum state that actually represents the reality of it.

I don't say it is infeasible to imagine that humans may have purpose, but in science it is a must to follow the evidence regardless of what we want to see or how we feel about the data.

But I do have a problem when the claim is made that relies on debatable papers and hinges on the requirement of supersymmetry, which as anyone should know, has no evidence to support it.

But I am happy to change my mind as and when the evidence presents itself.

And yes I have, Within the realm of physics.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Sapporo - [PGJ's conjecture]

Sapporo - [PGJ's conjecture] isn't even something which can be derived from observation.

That simple statement is the most damning criticism of this nonsense offered to date, imo.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
TheBlindWatchmaker said:

TheBlindWatchmaker said:

However, Purpose isn't something I would equate to the electron, and doesn't describe the essence of the electron.

I would say it just 'is', you cannot even determine what the true position or motion of an electron is, there is no such thing.
If you observe it, you will see it in a positon, however, that is not the fundamental essence of the electron.
There is wave function or a quantum state that actually represents the reality of it.

1.) I detect that my prior expression on this matter, was valid. There are approximation methods for electron properties; that heisenberg constraints exist, may not warrant that purpose may not be ascertained.

2.) Purpose applies to organisms on the macroscopic scale, and many approximations in science occur on that stage such that purpose is described. Likewise approximations on the microscale may not warrant non-purpose.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Because, In order to test

Because, In order to test/measure the hypothesis, 'does an electron' have purpose, You would have to observe it. And as previously mentioned, once you observe the electron you are no longer describing the true nature/essence of it.

So to make a subjective claim such as that of purpose, you are just defeating yourself.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
Fishy1 said:

Fishy1 said:

Again, we could only have a purpose if we were created. But since we are only hear by completely random chance, their is no purpose, except any purpose we place on ourselves.

Perhaps you ought to contact Wikipedia/Teleology in biology or Teleonomy.

ProgrammingGodJordan's picture
1.) If you actually take the

TheBlindwatchmaker said:

So essentially you don't appear to know what your paper actually is! In reality it comes across more as a thought experiment or a logical argument, and if it is the later then i would say that your 'hypothesis' requirement for supersymmetry allows one to dismiss your entire argument.

1.) If you actually take the time to read Wikipedia/Hypothesis, you would perhaps come to find that my hypothesis is sufficiently so.

2.) Persons on this forum tend to criticize their memory of what a word or concept may narrowly concern, which may not encompass other portions of said word/concept.

Sapporo's picture
Given that the objective

Given that the objective purpose of life is to create polar bears, why should we listen to your speculation?

Cognostic's picture
@LucyAustralopithecus Said -

@LucyAustralopithecus Said - "We have no purpose."

You have made a category error. "Us" or "We" as in people, and "Life." It is not the same thing. If you do not have a purpose, it is not my problem. If the rest of humanity does not have a purpose, too bad for them.

Life's purpose is self evident. Life exists to perpetuate life. Life feeds on life. Life creates more life. Life is the Ouroboros. Life exists for life. If you live, you serve life's purpose. If you die, you serve life's purpose. If you refuse to serve life's purpose you still serve life's purpose. There is no escaping.

The real question is this. Now that humans have life, what is their purpose. You are a human and you will give yourself purpose. Now your purpose seems to be looking for a purpose or imagining that you do not have one. At any rate, your purpose in this life will be your own. Sit and refuse to have a purpose, in which case your purpose will be to sit and pretend you do not have a purpose, or create a purpose for yourself. You are what you do. You steal and your purpose is to be a thief. You complain and your purpose is to complain. You make pseudo intellectual statements like Breezy and your purpose is to be a pseudo intellectual. You make your own purpose.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
That is your subjective

That is your subjective opinion of it, does not make it scientifically true.

But a nice point nevertheless.

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