I have come to the conclusion that it's nigh on impossible to reason with religious people, for if you could, there would be no religious people. What do you think?
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Except if these religious people would start to open their minds and understand the things around them, then it could be easier to reason up to them.
Don't hold your breath.
Some are so deeply indoctrinated they won't acknowledge error regardless of the evidence presented. Some may have so much invested in religion they cannot afford to leave. Such is the reason for the Clergy Project, that allows atheist preachers that cannot afford to quit a way to communicate with others in their sad situation. One does have hope people observing these discussions from the sidelines will see from the evidence provided how silly and man-made religion is.
Chill out bro...you should know from your religious upbringing that Jesus had the most trouble with the "religious" establishment of the time, and not the sinners and tax collectors. Man made religion is silly, but so is unbelief because of man made doctrines. Seek, brother, seek! :-)
I reason with them just fine, it is when it is time for them to reason back that problems emerge. Not all religious people are immune to reason, many have actually never really had the opportunity to really discuss things with a person who doesn't agree with them. That is generally the audience that I am aiming for...
Sounds reasonable lol. So, can you present to me a question that you already "know" the answer to, that you suspect my lack of reason will prevent me from understanding as a theist? Shoot :-)
Who is the greatest mass murderer that ever existed, that killed more humans?
Ahhhh let me take a guess, Jeff...God, or Yahweh of the Old Testament? Please, you'll have to do better than that. Most of your audience doesn't even believe in the book (Bible) which describes such things. You can't have it both ways chief lol.
"Who is the greatest mass murderer that ever existed, that killed more humans?"
"Ahhhh let me take a guess, Jeff...God, or Yahweh of the Old Testament?"
It is funny that your GOD came to your mind first lol
WRONG, the christian god cannot possibly exist.
'The Church' is the right answer and and you proved to me that The Antichrist might be right lol
All you needed was to use your reason and do a Google search.
Everybody knows that the church killed more humans then any other organization on earth.
They also killed cattle and beasts that just happen to belong to some Christians that just happen to have a slightly different interpretation of a book.
That all depends on whether you are a Young-Earther or cosmological creationist.
Jeff, I'll believe your google search for now. Then I will do some research. My question was for you to pose an argument based on "reason", which is why I answered your question in such an open ended fashion.
Instead, you go and make an assertion that most intelligent Atheists worth their weight in salt can't REASONABLY assert, which is that "...the christian God cannot POSSIBLY exist." That, my friend, is the quintessence of an unreasonable BELIEF which you cannot prove, and perhaps proof that you may be more stubborn and obstinate than some of your most zealous religious opponents. You say "WRONG" about the Bible and "right" about the antichrist in an attempt to discredit me, before we've even had a chance to engage in any sort of healthy debate.
So, again I'll give you the floor...assuming the Church (is that the Christian Church, which has only been around for about 2000 years??) has killed the most people in history, how does that prove your assertion that God doesn't exist? Or does one have nothing to do with the other...and you still have me somewhat interested.
"Jeff, I'll believe your google search for now. Then I will do some research."
Never believe anybody, yes do your research.
"My question was for you to pose an argument based on "reason""
Yes you need reason to understand that I would not says GOD when I do not believe in his existence.
You underestimated me and payed the price:P
So to start our "healthy debate" do you concede that I managed to find a question that I knew the answer with just plain reason and you could not answer it correctly with your reason?
My reason tells me that Google is your friend :P
Instead, you go and make an assertion that most intelligent Atheists worth their weight in salt can't REASONABLY assert, which is that "...the christian God cannot POSSIBLY exist."
Why is that?
It has been proven that the christian god cannot possible exist by many atheist in many debates even on this site.
The problem lies with the christian god contradicting logic itself.
Search the forum(you need this skill) for topics on this subject(I have one myself) and check out why it contradicts logic.
"You say "WRONG" about the Bible and "right" about the antichrist in an attempt to discredit me"
The antichrist is the name of the OP that made the claim that theists cannot be reasoned with, else they won't be theist anymore.
"WRONG" about your answer of god being the mass murderer, although according to your belief he beats the church, that is why he came first in your mind.
"how does that prove your assertion that God doesn't exist? Or does one have nothing to do with the other"
one have nothing to do with the other
:)
-one was taking up your challenge about a question
-the other was a logical conclusion most knowledgeable atheist have arrived to.
I think every atheist book has a logical conclusion on this point.
That is why the argument usually is shifted by knowledgeable theists on the argument of GOD in general.
Here is a quote of the forum host:
"Some Claims Can Be Refuted
The above line of reasoning applies only to unfalsifiable claims, or claims that cannot be proven to be true or false. While this description applies to many religious beliefs, other religious claims can, in fact, be refuted with relative certainty. This is because the claims themselves are internally inconsistent and break down in the face of logic.
Take, for example, the Abrahamic God worshiped variously by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Supposedly, the Abrahamic God is simultaneously all-knowing, all-powerful and benevolent. These three traits cannot coexist with the world that we can perceive. When a major catastrophe occurs and wipes out thousands of people, it's impossible to assert that a benevolent and all-powerful God could be responsible.
Either God is impotent with no power to stop such a disaster, or he simply does not care about the suffering of humans. So while it may not be possible to disprove the existence of every definition of God, it is certainly possible to refute gods defined with contradicting attributes. "
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/arminnavabi/atheism-vs-agnosticism-w...
Have fun reading and learning.
Then and only then come debating please.
Well, Jeff...I read the article and confirmed through Google about the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church. Also, the millions of people who have died at the hands of religious institutions. Very interesting, and I accept that throughout history many people have wrongly committed murder in the name of Religion, perhaps we can go so far as to say "false religion" in my opinion.
So, is this your reason for dismissing the Christian faith and it's believers? Are we all just "sleeping giants" lying in wait to murder and destroy anyone who does not conform to our God and his tenants? Not me, my friend :-)
Finally, is it unreasonable to consider that since God (as defined in the Article) is "all knowing", "all powerful", and "benevolent", that an Eternal plan (which also includes justice for these atrocities and murders) might just be something that will inevitably occur in a way that exceeds your intellectual grasp at the moment?
Or, is it perhaps even more reasonable to admit that you just may not know everything that there is to know about life, the future, and eternity...and that your negative response to the "church" and concept of God may be a more emotional response, because of what Catholics did during the Inquisition hundreds of years ago?
Think hard, and try not to just regurgitate excerpts from this reply with clever refutations. Please feel free to speak from the heart, and try not to worry about what Christopher Hitchens would have to say lol.
Bah, people are religious, churches are often more theopolitical organizations that use religion like a blunt instrument to push their agendas. Even today a number of ideologies are pushed under the banner of religion that have little to do with it, I wouldn't blame a knife for a stabbing, it is the people using the tool you have to watch out for.
Agreed.
Yea organized religion is a sleeping giant that can be convinced of anything once you tell them god wants this.
EG:
The previous pope went to the most ravaged country with aids and asked all Christians not to use condoms.
He killed over 7 million people with aids, a horrible painful death in less a sentence.
That is the power of mind control.
When you learn about the history of the popes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r544ZRSbKw0
You will come to understand that it is just politics to control the people.
The same things happening to the popes where everywhere within the church.
Re read the quote since you clearly misunderstood the quote of the site host.
The christian god is not logical, it is like saying 1+1= 5.
Have a read on all the deaths:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc
We have had *so* many folks on this site say that the perpetrators of unspeakable acts done in the name of religion were not *true* (insert religion name here).
What makes me curious is, do all of you who say this agree with each other on what a *true* (insert religion name here) is?
The one their parents indoctrinated them with seems to be the trend for most.