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Yes
So you don't follow the rules put down your inerrant holy book? Or do you just pick and choose from them? Or have customs changed and some rules cited in your book no longer apply? Or did the rules change over generations? Or are those rules up for interpretation?
I am not an Old Testament Hebrew, but a New Testament Christian. I follow the commandments in the New Testament, and the ones in the Old Testament that are affirmed in the New Testament. As far as Shrimp, in the New Testament the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament were done away with. That is why I don't follow the laws that were put in place for the Hebrew Nation, but not for the Church. e.i. Stoning homosexuals, sowing with different seeds, or killing a rebellious child.
BTW I love Shrimp, They are part of the meal my Grandma makes at Christmas.
Mathew 5:18-19
Yes, and those laws were fulfilled in Christ.
Could you perhaps elaborate? When, where, how?
Urged on by watchman, I will respond. Though I doubt if an explanation will help.
Here is an example, The sacrificial laws in the Old Testament about killing a lamb to temporarily cover sins, was fulfilled, when, 2,000 years ago. Where? On the cross. How? Jesus became the perfect lamb, fulfilling all the previous sacrifices that looked forward to His sacrifice.
OK. But that doesn't really match what he says.
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
until heaven and earth disappear - That hasn't come to pass, has it?
And the last part of the verse says, "until everything is accomplished".
Nothing will pass from the law, until either, Heaven and earth disappear, or everything is accomplished.
And you claim everything is accomplished?
Perhaps the NLT will make more sense to you.
"Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved." Does that help at all?
Galations 3:19-25 "9 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.
21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."
Here is something from David Guzik
"- Jesus fulfilled the doctrinal teachings of the Law and the Prophets in that He brought full revelation.
- Jesus fulfilled the predictive prophecy of the Law and the Prophets in that He is the Promised One, showing the reality behind the shadows.
- Jesus fulfilled the moral and legal demands of the Law and the Prophets in that He fully obeyed them and He reinterpreted them in their truth.
- Jesus fulfilled the penalty of the Law and the Prophets for us by His death on the cross, taking the penalty we deserved."
So, yes, Jesus, fulfilled the law when He died on the cross, the phrase, "everything is accomplished" means fulfilled.
Sorry for the long post.
No need to apologize.
(Compared to some Travis Hedglin and Valiya posts, your post is very short. :)
---
"Nothing will pass from the law, until either, Heaven and earth disappear, or everything is accomplished."
Sorry, but there is no "or" there. So, no I can't make out that is actually supposed to be "accomplished". Not even in the NLT translation.
---
Now, just because it is interesting and educational, I compared the New Living Translation with Young's Literal Translation.
(https://www.biblegateway.com)
Galatians 3:
NLT - "19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people."
YLT - "19 Why, then, the law? on account of the transgressions it was added, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made, having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator"
NLT - "20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham."
YLT - "20 and the mediator is not of one, and God is one"
NLT - "21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it."
YLT - "21 the law, then, [is] against the promises of God? -- let it not be! for if a law was given that was able to make alive, truly by law there would have been the righteousness,"
NLT - "22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ."
YLT - "22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing."
NLT - "23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed."
YLT - "23 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,"
NLT - "24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith."
YLT - "24 so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,"
NLT - "25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."
YLT - "25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,"
Some sentences really differ. Imagine comparing NLT to the originals in Aramaic or Koine Greek. Apart from the difficulties of translating from those languages (if you start reading about it your jaw will drop to the ground), there is the state of many of the original documents, for ex:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text#mediaviewer/File:2nd_century...
On top of that there are (among other things) the ecumenical councils (who where deemed "infallible", LoL!), where several theological disputes where "solved".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council
You should ask yourself a few questions...
Why do you use the NLT version?
Who told you that NLT is the correct version?
Why do you get to pick and choose from the NT?
Who told you Christianity is correct?
Why did they say that?
Could they have been indoctrinated when they grew up?
Sorry, I should have quoted directly from NLT:
"17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."
So, again:
There is no "or" there. So, no I can't make out that is actually supposed to be "accomplished". Not even in the NLT translation.
Atheism is not 'anarchism', just because we don't believe in God doesn't mean we don't believe in rules and order.
Witness, your profile picture is a dog. Let's think about dogs for a moment. Someone gets a puppy and (hopefully) starts training it. The owner sets down rules...no peeing in the house, no leg humping, no chewing furniture, no biting the postal carrier, etc. Are these rules arbitrary? Are these rules theistic? Are these rules christian? Or are they simply put into place to foster an ordered, peaceful existence?
So do you believe, that the only reason we should have rules is because we enjoy ordered, peaceful existence, as opposed to a disordered, disruptive, existence?
'Should' is a word I would not use. There are rules, pretty much everywhere. Some I think are reasonable, some not. Some provide order, etc., some do not. We are a social species. Societies create rules for themselves. All societies.
Do you enjoy disorder and disruptiveness?
Nope, is that your reason for justifying rules? Because the make things enjoyable?
It is part of it, sure.
Even without God or the law, if I want something and just take it by force, there are consequences. The reality is that some else loses what I take. Others get upset, perhaps angry, perhaps try to take it back by force. The worse I would do to someone else and the more force is used, the greater number of people would get upset and the more the risk of retaliation escalates. We seek survival, comfort, social interaction.
You sound a bit like those who ask: "But as an atheist, why do you even get up in the morning?"
Because we seek survival, comfort, social interaction. You have to get up to have comfort, social interaction, get education, work to make money to by food and pay for living, and so on.
It really isn't very complicated.
Instead of listening to what you have been indoctrinated to believe in, educate yourself. Think critically. Read the Bible (what ever version you believe to be the correct one) and analyse it.
Where does the Bible come from, who wrote it, who put the books together, who decided which books to include/exclude and why, what languages were those books written in, what are the problems of interpretation of the originals?
Here is one place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity
First of all who is 'we'? Define ordered, peaceful, disordered, and disruptive. These things don't mean the same to everyone and 'we' humans are not all the same. So in order to even begin such a discussion you must first operationalize what it is you mean and then proceed from there.
We ~ I and the rest of a group that includes me
Ordered ~: carefully organized or controlled
Peaceful ~: quiet and calm : without noise, excitement, etc.
: not fighting a war
: not involving violence or force
Disordered ~ in a confused or messy state : having a lack of order or organization
medical : not working in a normal, healthy way
Disruptive ~: to cause (something) to be unable to continue in the normal way : to interrupt the normal progress or activity of (something)
All these definitions are straight from Merriam and Webster. But it is good to define terms.
My question still remains. So do you believe, that the only reason we should have rules is because we enjoy ordered, peaceful existence, as opposed to a disordered, disruptive, existence?
Just a couple of questions for you ..... if you would be so kind....
So Witmess ....
You are 18 years old....... And just how many birthday parties have you had/been to......
Just out of interest...
..and then perhaps you could tell the forum why you are quite so interested in "rules".....
Oh ...and you have some serious misconceptions about Atheists and Atheism .....
also about the efficacy of religion in general and your god in particular.
What does the amount of parties I have went to have to do with what we are discussing?
Answer Unknown.
The reason I keep asking about rules, is because I don't understand how atheist account for them? After all in a random chance universe why should there be order and peace? If your answer is just, "because we like it that way." or, "We don't account for them." That is fine, but please let me know.
“The reason I keep asking about rules, is because I don't understand how atheist account for them?”
You don’t understand …because you have preconceived ideas of what atheists are and how we think….Your ideas are wrong !
“After all in a random chance universe why should there be order and peace?”
There shouldn’t be order and peace …. And indeed if you care to look around you will find there is not order or peace.
Across the universe stars are being formed and dying all the time , planets get bombarded randomly by comets ,solar flares scorch other worlds. It is Chaos.
On our own little rock ,the human race is continuing its unending quest to find bigger and better ways to divide and destroy themselves.
It is part of our species “make up” to try to impose some form of order on chaos.
Hence the attempts by primitive man to “order” the world through the imagined existence of deities. These imaginary friends are supposedly in charge and may be begged or propitiated by various meaningless rituals.
You will note that these rituals are merely placebo.
No amount of prayer to whichever cardboard cut-out is your chosen deity can heal the sick , still a volcano , stop a hurricane or turn aside a comet.
The reality is ,of course ,that it is all in vain….. there are no supernatural heroes to come to our rescue. If we want things changed…..there is only one way to get it done……and that is for us to do it.
Gods cannot bring peace (quite the reverse in fact) ….
If we want peace WE must make it.
There is no justice…there is just us ….
If we want justice WE must make it.
This is why we make rules to govern society …. And if (and it’s a huge IF) we get it right we might just buy our selves enough time to develop enough ,to learn & discover enough to build our societies to such a point that we can co operate on a planetary scale and build a way to leave this tiny orbiting rock and spread out into the universe. Then and only then could our species consider itself safer from an extermination event ,both the random cosmological variety and the self induced destruction we seem to crave.
So you see……you sitting there on your Anabaptist backside pretending you have a personal relationship with a sky faerie that looks after you is totally pointless and helps no one , least of all yourself.
We ,at least encourage critical thinking ,rationalism and the pursuit of knowledge.
So what do your lot contribute to humanities cause.
"It is part of our species “make up” to try to impose some form of order on chaos."
Okay, so are you saying that the reason human beings want order, is because that is just the way we are? Our make-up?
I also encourage critical thinking, rationalism, and the pursuit of knowledge, and I have a basis to do so. Christian's should be rational, I believe Atheist should too. But in order to be rational there needs to be laws of logic, do you give a reason that there are such laws or do you just accept them to be true?
My lot contributes to humanities cause by thinking critically of you critical thinking.
Witness1625. Here's you big chance please list ten rules handed down by your God that you and all those of you have followed without fail, and give examples of how they have led to a better world.
God has handed down Ten Commandments, and I agree with you, no one can keep them without fail. There is no way we can do it. * We is referring to all humanity in general* That is why Jesus came and died on the cross and took our place, He bore our punishment. All we have to do is repent, and trust in Jesus Christ, like we would trust a parachute. The moment we do that, God will grant us everlasting life.
Now, I no you won't agree with me, and you might mock me, and again I would submit this as a reason you should believe in God. I just posted it because you asked.
Also, just because a person or persons holding to a certain belief are bad, doesn't mean the belief itself is bad.
So then why do Christians have rules? Isn't it pointless to have rules when a blood sacrifice has already absolved you of any consequences of breaking rules?
Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
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