"Soul"

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mjfermalino's picture
"Soul"

Does the soul excist? Many are have been on the experienced. Afterlife, neardeath, being consciuos about their spirit seperated from their physical body.. even the greatest scientists claimed that there is afterlife and have been to heaven (and hell). but most havent been in this situation and still unconvinced.. these are the heaviest claims of some poeple and proof that there is really someone with a divine power. what your insight about this?

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XyberEX's picture
Illusions created by the

Illusions created by the brain during highly stressful moments (hey, I'd freak out too if I were about to die/thought I would die in a moment) using images sounds and sensations storied in our memories to create these places, and nothing more.

mjfermalino's picture
but most of them have almost

but most of them have almost the same interpretation of what they saw. how would you explain that?

Travis Hedglin's picture
Every year people around the

Every year people around the world report NDE's, and Christians report meeting Christ and Hindus report meeting Brahman, so why should I believe either one of them when all the religious NDE's seem to see what they expect to see. Seems more reasonable to me, by far, that the brain does weird shit like this when we are dying. At least that doesn't require the existence of every god ever imagined, in all these different kinds of heaven, existing simultaneously somehow.

Nyarlathotep's picture
If we are just going to make

If we are just going to make shit up, why stop at 1 soul, why not 50 different souls?

Nordic Fox's picture
Some scientifically

Some scientifically illiterate people would probably try to say "that's where multiple personalities come from" or some nonsense....

But I agree!

Travis Hedglin's picture
First, I would have to ask

First, I would have to ask exactly what we are talking about when we say 'soul', as it is a vague and useless word that doesn't really mean much in discourse. Is it memory? Personality? Identity? Or is it just some amorphous energy that animates us, but doesn't actually 'do' or 'is' anything resembling us. All relevant parts of 'who we are' from memory to our personality or identity can be affected by medication or a blow to the brain, meaning that they are likely a product of our mind. Since our mind obviously does not survive our death, whatever persisted after that would not have either our memory or any other quality that makes us who we are, as people.

Is it worth identifying what was left as 'us', when it contains nothing that made us who we are, and what would it matter if it lacks the ability to think or feel? What good is an existence like that?

Nordic Fox's picture
I think the soul is a concept

I think the soul is a concept, not a factual/actual thing.

Now, if people wanted to call the electricity in our brains 'the soul' then I guess I could accept that, but it isn't what most people would consider the same thing.

If we had existence outside our own bodies... Our bodies would have no point. If our brains don't run 100% of who we are, what we do, and how we do it... Then it is odd that nerve disorders disrupt muscle function, cognitive thought process, etc.

And if it 'left' when we were unconscious, then the brain would be useless. But brain surgery is performed with the patient awake and alert, because if you hit the wrong parts it can damage them for life!

I doubt the existence of the 'soul' with 99.999% confidence, because there are perfectly rational explanations for many 'experiences' people claim to have.

Such as 'out of body' during surgery instances... People in comas were found to have sometimes profound awareness of their surroundings, through senses of hearing, smell, touch... And just like when you are dreaming outside stimuli can effect your dream.

If people are semi-conscious during surgery, and overhear a surgeon asking for a scalpel to cut away some tissue, the patient may dream about 'seeing' this take place, very much like leaving the TV on when you fall asleep can make you 'dream' the TV show that comes on while you're sound asleep.

So, no... I don't believe in souls I guess lol. It's an interesting idea, but entirely inaccurate according to the way things tend to work.

watchman's picture
Personally I've always looked

Personally I've always looked at the "soul" from the point of view of its supposed creation .....

If we look at a very early embryo ...say four cells ..... then in which cell do we find the soul ..?

Better still ... lets go back a step .... the formation of the first cell ....is the soul in there.?... crammed in with all those DNA coding's ?

Or perhaps one stage further back.... does the soul reside in the egg or in the sperm ?

It surely cant be in both...... how could that possibly work ........ and quite apart from anything else ,how has it eluded detection for millennia (particularly since we have developed scans and embryonic sampling techniques ) thus it cannot be in either cell , egg or sperm ....therefore ,in my opinion ,it cannot exist.

Nordic Fox's picture
Very true, I'll have to

Very true, I'll have to remember that example!

Apollo's picture
NordicFox,

NordicFox,

You make sense. The word soul derives from the Greek language, as does psyche. The word soul and psyche are about the same meaning and refers to cognitive powers. Its where the word psychology came from. psychology studies the mind, or soul, or psyche. It is as you say, an abstraction, a concept, as there is no psyche, mind, soul, without a body.

Anonymous's picture
Mj fermalino-I already

Mj fermalino-I already expressed my contempt for most of you for having "intellectual" discussions with idiots and morons. I am waiting to be banned from this forum forever for when my last post will be read. If what I said before describing most of you as weak, stupid, passive, lazy, and feeble "jerks" does not get me kicked out of this forum maybe what I say now will. I will be glad to be free from you fucking assholes. Creationists like Valya and llovequestions are insane and yet you continue to "debate" them as if they have a brain. Your discussions with the "creationists"- lack any ridicule for their "ideas" and continue for post and post and post and pages and pages and pages of intellectual bullshit. Mj fermalino is even "crazier" than the "creationists"-although that is hard to imagine. Yet you fucking idiots continue to have an intellectual discussion about the "SOUL" with Mi fermalino as if it worthy of debate. I am ready to leave this "forum" and Atheist Republic forever because you disgust me in your weak, passive, feeble, worthless, arguments about the "soul" and other ridiculous ideas. Maybe Mjfermalino is "goofing" on us just to see if "we would react to such ridiculous, crazy, insane, dumb, and stupid "ideas" like the "soul". If Mifernalino is indeed just using "satire" to be funny I apologize and congratulate him(her) on her imagination in fooling me. God Bless. Have a nice day.

mjfermalino's picture
i dont know you, but i saw

i dont know you, but i saw your subjects and read some of them.. and to be honest you seemed a little crazy to me actually. i dont know what did i did to have a peaceful thread with a ridiculous subject like this (as you said), but maybe try to make a topic on a formal way and youll have justice. :)

ThePragmatic's picture
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mjfermalino's picture
by the way, thank you all for

by the way, thank you all for your ideas.. i just want to clarify myself into this thing. just in case i may encounter some statements in line with this.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
The strongest argument you

"just in case i may encounter some statements in line with this."

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Here are my 2 cents on the soul topic.

-The strongest argument you could encounter is when theists try to mix conciseness with souls.

If this argument pops up, ask for evidence that connects the two, they will fall short.

It is a fascinating idea but unfortunately evidence for it is short.

-Second strongest argument, is visions of past events of dead people.

Again hard to verify with solid reliable evidence.

Do not make claims.

Remember the burden of proof is on the one making the claims.
You make none, you win easy.

If on the other hand you wish to find the truth prepare yourself for a very long extensive research that you might not like the answers for, if there are any.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
I would retort, that simply

I would retort, that simply because something has not been proven, does not make it so. and simply because something has been proven, does not make it so

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"simply because something has

"simply because something has not been proven, does not make it so."
But the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

"simply because something has been proven, does not make it so"
Wrong, if it has been proven that a table is inside a room, it makes it so.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
""simply because something

""simply because something has not been proven, does not make it so.""
"But the burden of proof is on the one making the claim."

I can't disagree with that

""simply because something has been proven, does not make it so""
Wrong, if it has been proven that a table is inside a room, it makes it so.

This is where I am in the minority of the vast majority of the world. I believe things are proven through science. but science is progress and sometimes progress means correcting the mistakes science made in the past. If scientists can make mistakes, but we do not catch them, how do we know the nature of reality?

Effectively what I am saying, is that in reality, there is no exhaustive and foolproof evidence for anything. I'm not argueing for subjectivism, just for the limitations of the human mind

as to your example, I just have to shrug. that is true, I suppose, but that is only an example, it doesnt cover everything that has been "proven" true

Also, our methods of proving things are improving steadily overtime

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"as to your example, I just

"as to your example, I just have to shrug. that is true, I suppose, but that is only an example,"
Glad that at least you accept a fact.

" it doesnt cover everything that has been "proven" true"
It does cover everything if one assumes that what we can perceive is what there is.
Which is an assumption with a very high level of confidence.

The problem lies with an accurate understanding of what has been proven.
Some people are just biased and mistaken about what has been proven and assumed.

Name me one thing that you think has been proven but turned out to be untrue?

"Also, our methods of proving things are improving steadily overtime"
Nope, our methods of understanding reality are improving(so we can prove more things), what has been proven already does not need to get a better method for us to know that it has been proven.

You are mixing up proven things with theorized/hypothesized things.

Eg:
All "experts"(all the scientific community) (1920's)came up with mathematical formulas that proved that man cannot possibly fly, in reality it was only proving that "normal" man without any "help" can't fly.
The assumption was on the"help" and "normal".

It has been proven however that man with the "help" of science can fly. (aerodynamics)

It is clear that you have some mix up as those "experts" had with regards to what is actually being proven, at best.
At worst you don't know what you are talking about.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Vincent Paul Tran - 'and

Vincent Paul Tran - 'and simply because something has been proven, does not make it so'

Vincent Paul Tran - "if you want to learn how to prove something, take some higher level math courses"

Uh these statements seem to be in contradiction.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
"Vincent Paul Tran - 'and

"Vincent Paul Tran - 'and simply because something has been proven, does not make it so'

Vincent Paul Tran - "if you want to learn how to prove something, take some higher level math courses"

Uh these statements seem to be in contradiction."

Sorry, my writing skills are crap and so is my logic most of the time. What I wrote was indeed a contradiction. What I mean is math is an abstraction that doesn't really exist. But is is a useful tool to "prove" something. I don't believe anything can be proven in the real world because we only know so much. But math is unique in the disciplines. It can detach itself from the real world, play around in a playground of ideas and thought, and bring back results that people who work in the real world can use in their endeavors

Anonymous's picture
Jeff-There you go again.

Jeff-There you go again. Discussing the subject of the soul although a waste of time might be slightly, marginally worthy of limited discussion just for fun. But "debating" "the soul" about people who experienced death and their souls went to heaven or hell is not funny but ridiculous, stupid, silly and not worthy of discussion. It would be ok (I guess) in a limited and superficial way to talk about heaven and hell in the bible and argue how absurd and childish the whole idea of heaven and hell is. It is another thing to even begin to discuss the subject with people who said their "souls" went to heaven and hell. Having an "intellectual" discussion with "stories" about people who went to heaven or hell is an embarrassment and a disgrace to my integrity. Jeff-you do it all the time--intellectually trying to make an argument with the absurd and ridiculous. It would be like "intellectually" proving there is no Santa Claus because everyone knows reindeer can't fly and Santa can't fit down a chimney. Debating the soul with people who said they went to heaven or hell is beneath my integrity and a waste of time. Argue if you must with stupid claims and fantasies but leave me out of the bullshit.

Travis Hedglin's picture
You are annoying, if you don

You are annoying, if you don't want to see people discussing things, you would be well advised to get the fuck out of the debate room.

Anonymous's picture
Travis-As always you don't

Travis-As always you don't "get it". Discuss anything you want. There are a million "places" do go and have a meaningful debate. Even though I think it is stupid to argue with creationists "Adam and Eve and the talking snake--do it if you must. Belittle yourself and your integrity but ok have your silly conversation. Even though I myself think it is stupid have a conversation with the creationists about HEAVEN and HELL. BUT to demean yourself even further to discuss whether anyone or someone's soul actually went to heaven or hell is total fucking wacky and bullshit. Is there anything no ,matter how ridiculous or nuts that your not ashamed of "debating".. Travis--Lets have an intellectual debate if Santa Claus "exists" along with Rudolf the red nose reindeer. You should get the fuck out of the debate room as you humiliate yourself by being a silly man. God Bless .. Have a nice day

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Travis--Lets have an

"Travis--Lets have an intellectual debate"

If you had a honest question, and were capable of it, I would love too. I will not hold my breath.

science's picture
No one has ever given me a

No one has ever given me a logical explanation of exactly what a "soul" is? Theists say that when you die, your body dies, but your "soul" goes to heaven. When I ask exactly what is a soul, I have never recieved an answer that really explained it. And if the theists REALLY believe that your body dies, but your "soul" dosen't, then why are they so hesitant when someone asks them if they would be cremated? I questioned a friend of mine who is a devout theist. We were discussing how expensive it is for funerals, especially ones with "all the trimmings," and I said that more, and more people were opting for cremation, theist or not. My friend replied," oh, I don't know, I would feel funny." ( there's that older generation again...the ones that @#$%&d up their kids...OUR generation!!) REALLY, NOW!! I stated that it's supposed to be your "soul" that goes where it is supposed to go, it dosen't matter what happens to your body, so what are you so afraid of?...and AT THAT POINT, IS IT really GOING TO MATTER, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!! Theists sometimes don't even believe their own nonsense!!

science's picture
And on the subject of people

And on the subject of people that awe dying seeing Christ, or whomever it is they believe that they will see...whatever a person believes, is what they will think they see, ( look up in the clouds...some people insist they see Christ, or God, or Allah, or their deceased grandmother, or whomever, you get the idea) especially when a person is that close to death, your mind does crazy things. We all know about the little boy who says he saw God..the whole story was a phony, the book, and the movie was pulled. Lets face it...these things DO NOT exist...anytime someone says they do, or has a story about it, it turns out to be a bunch of balony.

LoisKobb1964's picture
What IS a soul supposed to be

What IS a soul supposed to be, anyway? What does it look like? How much does it weigh? What is it made of? Where does it reside? At what point in embryonic development do we get a soul? Do identical twins share one soul, since they developed from the same ovum and sperm? Where do souls come from? We have no concrete ideas, only the vaguest notion of some kind of "energy" which is somehow able to retain all of our memories, experiences, and personality after we die. And then it floats away to some Never-Never Land to live forever. Why? What is the point of all that? Depending on your religion, it's either because God is lonely and needs some company in heaven (I guess he is bored with the angels and seraphim and whatnot), or because you have to keep being reincarnated until you reach some arbitrary pinnacle of perfection. None of it makes any sense to me. It's one of the many reasons I gave up on Christianity.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
I see the question of whether

I see the question of whether there is a soul as whether we are strictly materialistic beings or if there is something beyond that in a person. I have no idea myself

Nyarlathotep's picture
"What IS a soul supposed to

Apostate Vivienne - "What IS a soul supposed to be, anyway? What does it look like? How much does it weigh? What is it made of? Where does it reside? At what point in embryonic development do we get a soul? Do identical twins share one soul, since they developed from the same ovum and sperm? Where do souls come from?"

A great list. Those would be the first questions anyone would ask if they were serious. I'd just add "how do we know we have only 1 soul?".

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