Taxation as Theft

75 posts / 0 new
Last post
Flamenca's picture
WTH?

WTH?

P.S. A map from 1800...

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
algebe's picture
@mykcob4: "Private schools

@mykcob4: "Private schools are a form of discrimination if they take money away from public education."

Parents who choose to send their children to private schools are also taxpayers. Do you not think that children in private schools should get an equal share of taxpayer-funded education expenditure? Not all children in private schools are from rich families.

Harry33Truman's picture
That's what I told him.

That's what I told him.

Flamenca's picture
I totally disagree with this,

I totally disagree with this, Algebe. In the region where I live, there are public schools in deplorable conditions, with no money for subtitutes teachers, for example, meanwhile private schools are increasing their public subsudies' income every year.

Before I was born, there weren't enough public schools in my country to cover the demand, so they used to pay subsudies to private school, to build schools in some places where it was needed. Fair enough.

Now, it's the opposite situation. We have more schools than we should, and some politicians are trying to devaluate public school (which was wonderful when I was young) by investing public money - which is needed to mantain decent public schools- in private schools, in which parents are able to pay hundreds of euros a month for their kid enrolment, while last winter in some public schools, some kids had to wear a coat in class, because there wasn't enough money for the central heating, for instance.

That's outrageous and creates unequality.

PS. A public school a few meters away from my house still has asbestos and they don't make the investment for taking it out.
PS.II. Edited because of grammar mistakes.

algebe's picture
Angiebot:

Angiebot:
It sounds like politicians and administrators in your region need a few pokes with a cattle prod. Leaving asbestos in a school is tantamount to murder.

But direct funding of children can work. It was introduced in New Zealand in the 1980s. Each child is entitled to a certain amount of funds. If the parents decide to move their child to another school, the funds follow the child. So schools work really hard to retain students. In addition to student funding, schools also get grants for buildings and maintenance.

At the same time, they put the governance of schools in the hands of elected local representatives, usually parents. There have been problems, but on the whole it's worked quite well.

I think it's important for parents to have some choice about their children's education. I also think it's important for schools to see students as valued customers, not as cost items.

Flamenca's picture
Algebe: It sounds like

Algebe: It sounds like politicians and administrators in your region need a few pokes with a cattle prod That's the least they deserve. xD

Now I live 25 minutes away from Madrid city... So imagine what's happening in other parts of the country.

I'm not saying that private schools should be banished, and your direct funding idea sounds nice ('though I need more explanation about the origin of those funds and how they should be managed...), but it's outrageous to see public schools fading while private schools thrive with public help.

mykcob4's picture
No Algebe I don't think that

No Algebe I don't think that they should get any taxpayer money. Heres why.
1) Public schools were created to provide education for all even those who could not afford it. Knowing that education is the key for success of each individual we have to create an opportunity for all to get an education.
2) That means that the public at large should pay for public education and share the financial burden equally or equitably.
3) People can send their children to private schools all they want, but they should not take money out of public education to do so. That will cripple public education and if public education fails then millions will not have an opportunity for education no matter what anyone says that is the reality.
3) If poorer kids go to private schools, fine, but don't ask public school to pay for them to go to a private school. They can go to private school if they can find a way to pay for it, but they have a perfectly good option in public schools, or they would if conservative bastards wouldn't keep cutting the funding!

Harry33Truman's picture
What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? Funding for public schooling has gone up:
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending

Also, the justification for government funded education is that it is impossible, as Thomas Jefferson said, for a nation to be both ignorant and free. The funding should be tied to students, not schools.

Nyarlathotep's picture
I'd just add that the instant

I'd just add that the instant you start sending tax dollars to private schools, they aren't really private any more.

UnKnown's picture
"Private schools are a form

"Private schools are a form of discrimination" - So if people pay more for a better service, it is discrimination?

algebe's picture
@Unknown: "So if people pay

@Unknown: "So if people pay more for a better service"

Private schools aren't necessarily better. They also offer different forms of education, such as Montessori. Another obvious example is religious schools. Also, many people want to send their children to single-sex schools. They should have those choices. Cutting off public funding to private schools makes them less affordable for people of limited means.

UnKnown's picture
And in some people's mind,

And in some people's mind, the different form of education is better. But yeah, I agree.

algebe's picture
The biggest problem with

The biggest problem with income taxation systems in modern countries is their absurd complexity. The compliance costs are enormous, and unlike any other area of law, taxpayers are guilty until proven innocent. I think the core problem is the definition of what actually constitutes taxable income.

Taxes on goods and services, levied on value added, are much simpler and more transparent. Traders deduct tax paid on inputs, and add tax on outputs. The difference is their tax bill. Consumers pay tax on purchases.

But we've had this discussion before, and I really don't know what it has to do atheism or religion.

cmallen's picture
These Ayn Randies and

These Ayn Randies and sovereign citizens amaze me. It's so easy to be a Libertarian when you're a white, middle to upper class college student (I mean American Libertarian, I know it means something else in every other country in the world) because mommy and daddy are paying for everything. And if that's not what they are then they are incredibly gullible and willing corporate slaves.

They want to use public roads, emergency services, sanitation, and massive infrastructure which among other things brings them the internet that they so love, and not have to pay one damned dime for it. Absolutely no comprehension of the resources and manpower that go behind everything that makes them safe and comfortable in this world. So many I've talked to are utterly clueless that without laws protecting them and a service to enforce those laws, they would be the first ones eaten by someone stronger.

Of course taxation with no representation and/or with nothing to show for it in quality of life is stealing, but that is something for monarchies and extremely corrupt regimes, which of course should be fought against. But that's not what we are dealing with in western society.

When confronted with the whole public infrastructure idea, they say everything should be open to the free market. As if total control by a corporation is going to result in more representation by the consumer, or as if private companies would have the consumers best interest at heart.

And that is why they amaze me. They are grown up children who can't see past the second or third order of affect beyond their own little lives, who don't even get that they have a huge advantage being a part of a society of humans instead of roughing it on their own. It's actually pathetic and sad.

*edit: I know there is corruption and misuse of taxes in probably all western governments, I'm not implying any state is all perfect, just that there is a huge change in perspective between these and institutionally corrupt systems.

mykcob4's picture
Absolutely correct M. C.

Absolutely correct M. C. Allen!
I have been saying the very same thing since I have been on this forum.
Also, the Libertarians are atheists because it's "fashionable." They live in a world of instant gratification. they don't understand the real world. they have never had to pay for it.

Flamenca's picture
I was amazed when a found out

I was amazed when a found out what a libertarian was considered in USA, because here that word means "anarchist" and I've always related to people like Noam Chomksy, Albert Camus, Herbert Marcuse...

Harry33Truman's picture
"When confronted with the

"When confronted with the whole public infrastructure idea, they say everything should be open to the free market. As if total control by a corporation is going to result in more representation by the consumer, or as if private companies would have the consumers best interest at heart."

A Free Market is where anyone is able to enter into any trade or profession they want, and yes, allowing consumers to deal with private alternatives to government services will lead to greater representation, just as it did with the post office.

It is clear by your post that you don't have the slightest clue what libertarianism is, please go read John Locke's Second Treatise on Government then read the Wealth of Nations, they will explain it to you.

cmallen's picture
"It is clear by your post

"It is clear by your post that you don't have the slightest clue what libertarianism is, please go read John Locke's Second Treatise on Government then read the Wealth of Nations, they will explain it to you."

Just to get this out of the way: modern, young Libertarians are not what Libertarianism started as and most have no clue who Locke was. There are some older people, like Paul Rand, who have very good points and have put forth sensible issues, they are not part of this extreme movement I am talking about.

To say I haven't the slightest clue is a mistake on your part, but I freely admit that I am not an expert and that you probably do have more knowledge than I on Libertarianism's origins and possibly on where it is on the spectrum now. I don't know how old you are or how long you have even known the word Libertarian. I was introduced to Libertarianism in the early 1980's and originally appreciated some aspects of it, but I have watched it's progress over the decades and it does not make good social sense to me, it only makes sense for raising a generation of slaves and for giving businesses real power over people's lives.

The private prison system has created more prisoners, not less crime. Private Postal, while doing some positive things, has also stripped workers of rights. Yes, there is something to be said for private contracts; for one thing, they can force government agencies to get their shit together. You won't catch me saying that any government is a-okay across the board. But major public services should not be controlled by an unelected, unregulated body of persons who want to make a profit. You sound very naive to me when you say that it leads to greater representation by the general public.

I won't argue against Locke, because I actually respect Locke and he was writing for a different time and a different system.

Everything I said here is non-expert opinion, based upon nearly 50 years experience and living in several countries and seeing how other governments work and how they handle things. But I can tell you first hand that the US private health care system sucks hard compared to almost everywhere else I've lived. That includes the Persian Gulf where I live now. That is not to say all market is bad or that private enterprise is bad, most of it is positive.

Harry33Truman's picture
"Just to get this out of the

"Just to get this out of the way: modern, young Libertarians are not what Libertarianism started as and most have no clue who Locke was. There are some older people, like Paul Rand, who have very good points and have put forth sensible issues, they are not part of this extreme movement I am talking about."

The Libertarian Party is a disgrace to the nation, and the movement surrounding it gives Libertarian a bad name- hence the reason I avoid the word. There is a reason why Rand Paul isn't part of the Libertarian Party, and more and more sensible libertarians have left it. I think it was Laura Southern who said that Modern Libertarians have come to switch loyalties from Capitalism as an ideal, to capital itself, which I believe is true to a degree, especially among Objectivists.

"To say I haven't the slightest clue is a mistake on your part, but I freely admit that I am not an expert and that you probably do have more knowledge than I on Libertarianism's origins and possibly on where it is on the spectrum now. I don't know how old you are or how long you have even known the word Libertarian. I was introduced to Libertarianism in the early 1980's and originally appreciated some aspects of it, but I have watched it's progress over the decades and it does not make good social sense to me, it only makes sense for raising a generation of slaves and for giving businesses real power over people's lives."

You have been around longer than I have, so I don't know how the Libertarian Movement had changed- I mostly focus on ideals, since groups and movements change over time and often come to betray their original ideals. I generally have problems with these trendy SJW and feminist libertarians, but most Libertarians are more centrist. Some are democrats, some are republicans, most are independents.

"The private prison system has created more prisoners, not less crime. Private Postal, while doing some positive things, has also stripped workers of rights."

Private Postal services gives consumers alternatives to the USPS, such as Fed Ex of UPS- since the market has opened up in postal services, the USPS has had to compete with them. As a matter of fact, since the UKs postal service is still a monopoly, you can see the difference yourself- I ordered a 250 ml thing of Brylcreem from the UK, and it takes over a month to get from the UK to the US, but only a couple of days to get from one side of the US to the other.

"Yes, there is something to be said for private contracts; for one thing, they can force government agencies to get their shit together. You won't catch me saying that any government is a-okay across the board. But major public services should not be controlled by an unelected, unregulated body of persons who want to make a profit. You sound very naive to me when you say that it leads to greater representation by the general public."

Services being offered by a private company isn't a problem. It doesn't really matter that they are unelected as long as they aren't granted government power. Hence the reason its an outrage that the Fed can create money, but not that Private Banks get to create money, because Federal Reserve notes are legal tender and the official currency of the United States, Bank Deposits aren't.

"But I can tell you first hand that the US private health care system sucks hard compared to almost everywhere else I've lived. That includes the Persian Gulf where I live now. That is not to say all market is bad or that private enterprise is bad, most of it is positive."

The US healthcare system is a mercantile, corporatist, abomination its what you get when you combine Government Bureaucracy with Private Enterprise. If we eliminated barriers to entry, allowed people to buy drugs and health insurance from other states and nations, and limited the time period which a patent on a treatment lasted for, it would be much better.

cmallen's picture
So... semantics, then?

So... semantics, then?

I am probably best described as a conservative liberal with libertarian (old libertarian) leanings and socialist ideals, maybe a "social libertarian-conservative socialist". Which sounds like a bag full of cats fighting. I don't see a way for any one of them to work on their own. I see capitalism as a worthy and necessary part of any healthy political/economic system, but I don't see it as an ideal. I see socialism as a way for us to function together as a society of humans (which necessarily must carry everyone regardless of how talented or "useful" they are) but not as a viable economic structure alone. To me, the most reasonable system lies somewhere in-between all that awful mess. Or maybe in Chomskey's version of anarchy, who knows. Someone smarter than all of us (or a group of smarter someones) will lead us out of chaos some day. Or the sun will explode before we reach interstellar travel and solve everything for humans.

Harry33Truman's picture
Capitalism is a state where

Capitalism is a state where people are free to make their own decisions which does make it an ideal. Government programs ought only to be a means to an end wherever applied.

You sound like a moderate progressive, take this and see:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Quiz/Quiz2016.asp?quiz=Pres2016
Click on political philosophy.

cmallen's picture
They called me a "hard-core

They called me a "hard-core liberal". Then I punched them in the face and said, "you don't know me".

Seriously, I'm shocked. I am not for massive and irrational government spending. I am fiercely socially-liberal. But I against people hording masses of resources all for themselves, at least within a system where everyone is expected to work toward to common good. In a system where the guy with the biggest stick gets the most stuff, well, that's different. But in a system like the US and most western states it's usually luck that gives someone a fortune, even among those that work hard for it. And the nation as a whole generally works hard (not everyone of course, I know). It is dumb luck of birth or circumstance that gives some the wealth. Which is fine if you live in a monarchy, but not in a democratic republic. Economic stratification is natural and should be accepted, but not in the extremes we have in the States. It's getting to be like an oligarchy, and that is not what this country was founded as.

Yea, that all probably influenced my score.

Harry33Truman's picture
That some people earn massive

That some people earn massive sums of money is not a problem. It doesn't in any negative way affect the wellbeing of those earning less, as a matter of fact it has a positive effect. If some schmuck starts a computer company and becomes a billionaire, I don't give a shit as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, and why should I? Clearly the objectivist ethic that those who are rich are rich entirely because of their productivity, and those who are poor are just unproductive, is false- Nikola Tesla and Kim Kardashian are perfect examples of this- Nikola Tesla was hard working, he developed the technology that put us into the 20th Century, we would be a century behind without him, yet he died poor and alone as an 81 year old virgin in a shitty hotel in New York. I dont even kniw how Kim Kardashian is rich or what she is famous for, she doesn't produce anything, so what gives? That just happens sometimes, but it doesn't justify government action.

cmallen's picture
You make some good points. To

You make some good points. To me hoarding resources while benefitting from living in a society is messed up. I also don't know that it warrants gov't intervention, I'm kind of torn on that whole thing. One thing I know from my travels and experience: for one person to have something, usually someone else has to not have something.

UnKnown's picture
1. "It's so easy to be a

1. "It's so easy to be a Libertarian when you're a white, middle to upper class college student" - Someone's skin colour and economic position shouldn't dictate what is wrong or right.
2. "As if total control by a corporation is going to result in more representation by the consumer, or as if private companies would have the consumers best interest at heart." - Not one corporation, but more (beauty of the free market). The private corporations has the only aim of profits. This is done by having the consumer's best interest at heart.

mykcob4's picture
@ UnKnown

@ UnKnown
You have ignored history. In the late 1800s and early 1900s business operated with little to no regulation or oversight. Thus monopolies dominated the landscape, abused children and slave labor was out of control. That is the result of a Libertarian idealism. If you think that there will be more competition, then you don't know history.
You should understand the difference between a "free" market and a "fair/free" market.

UnKnown's picture
Problem with the monopolies.

Problem with the monopolies. The monopolies were either enforced (which is regulation), or it isn't enforced, but one business is the only business that produces 'X' because they are the only one that set out to do it. If it is the former then there is a high rate of regulation, and is thus not libertarian. If it is the latter, then all it takes is another competitor to get into the business of producing 'X', which is libertarian. Then the price of 'X' will go down and quality will go up, as well as working quality and wages.

-"Thus monopolies dominated the landscape, abused children and slave labor was out of control. " - Sure if you take one period of time, it may be bad, but if compared to before, conditions are better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1kYlJEF1vg

Harry33Truman's picture
Child labor predates

Child labor predates capitalism, and slavery was abolished in 1865.
We didn't have any regulations from the creation of the Constitution until 1887, but we only had Free Market Capitalism from 1865 to 1913.
The existence of monopolies cannot be blamed on capitalism. These monopolies were actually backed up by state governments. The ludlow massacre for example, commonly attributed to Rockefeller, was actually done by state troopers under the request of Rockefeller.

mykcob4's picture
Child labor predates

Child labor predates capitalism? Huh?
No, Harry, you are wrong.
https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/history-ch...
https://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_hist...

The USA has always been a "free market capitalist" nation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism
And yes I can blame monopolies on capitalism if those businesses are corrupt and not regulated and overseen by a lawful governing body. BTW Teddy R. Fought against monopolies in 1902 which is smack dab in the middle of 1865 and 1913. So free unregulated capitalism is the culprit.
https://kapush.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/roosevelt-the-trust-buster/

algebe's picture
@mykcob3: "Child labor

@mykcob3: "Child labor predates capitalism? Huh?"

Of course it does, unless you consider the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and other premodern civilizations to be capitalists. Child labor and child slavery have existed throughout history. The very concept of childhood as a time for play and learning is modern. It's because of the huge productivity improvements made possible by the industrial revolution and capitalism that we can now afford to support a non-productive child population.

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.