The Theist Position

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Cognostic's picture
No one cares about your lack

No one cares about your lack of belief. You are not making a claim. You can believe as you wish. NO CLAIM HAS BEEN MADE.

Even if you said you believed in god, that is not a claim. You are not asserting anything about the real world. You are talking about your own perception / belief. How will I argue "No you don't believe in god." Stupid position for me to take.
You have no burden of proof because only you know what is going on inside of your frucking scary batshit brain. When you assert, there is a god, you are saying something about the nature of reality and that can be challenged. PROVE IT.

Craybelieves's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

You’re right I’ve allocated belief to 99.9 percent there is a God and 0.1 percent there isn’t. Your best bet is to allocate your belief to 0.1 percent there is a God and 99.9 percent there is not.

Cognostic's picture
And why would you do that

And why would you do that without evidence?

Sheldon's picture
You're confusing belief with

You're confusing belief with knowledge. Also no one can even say if the unfalsifiable concept of a deity is possible or not. Let alone how probable it is.

You're all at sea...

Craybelieves's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

“All you have said is that theists do not accept the claim that "God does not exist." This says nothing at all about whether or not they believe the claim "God Exists."”

I have said Theist do not believe God does not exist this says nothing at all about whether or not they believe the claim “God exists”.

All you have said is that atheist do not believe God exists this says nothing at all about whether or not they believe the claim "God does not exist."

Do you believe the claim God does not exist? Yes or No? Whatever you say here is a positive claim you’ll need to provide evidence for me to examine. Abstinence from answering the question in a simple yes or no is an argument from silence or dishonest tactic to avoid the question which I will take to mean that you don’t believe the claim God does not exist.

Edit: For clarity

Sky Pilot's picture
catholicray,

catholicray,

"Do you believe the claim God exists? Yes or No? Whatever you say here is a positive claim you’ll need to provide evidence for me to examine."

The Jesus character specified ways by which people who believe in him can prove that he exists. So far not one person in 2,000 years has ever been able to do what Jesus said they can do if they believe in him. So why don't you become the first person and pass the tests? If you don't do it by noon two days from today you are an atheist when it comes to Jesus.

Craybelieves's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes

So you have chosen to avoid the question through dishonest tactics. I’ll let you try again just this once. Please re-read my post.

Sheldon's picture
Catholicray "@Diotrephes

Catholicray "@Diotrephes

So you have chosen to avoid the question through dishonest tactics"

Now that's fucking hilarious...

Cognostic's picture
What didn't you understand.

What didn't you understand. I believe the claim "god does not exist" to the standard of evidence provided 99.999% I give an extremely low percentage to the possible existence of any kind of magic. witchcraft. or spiritual woowoo. The evidence of absence is enough to establish a lack of existence. We have 6000 years of NOTHING>

Craybelieves's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Depends on what you’re looking for.

Cognostic's picture
I did not say absence of

I did not say absence of evidence. I said evidence of absence. Evidence of absence is definitely evidence that can be produced to support absence, it is used by science all the time. (Must we do the bear cave analogy again?). Key words ("not necessarily") I've got 6000 years of missing gods and bullshit excuses for missing gods. I've got 6000 years of inane excuses. I have hundreds of thousands of failed gods that are no longer worshiped. I have so much evidence of gods missing that I am drowning in evidence. What in the hell do you have supporting your imaginary assertions but for idiotic twists of phrases and inane attempts at justifying your belief. YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT THE FEELING IT'S ALL TRUE. YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. TIME TO GROW THE HELL UP!

arakish's picture
@ catholicray

@ catholicray

Now you are just playing stupid. Remember my Razor: Arakish’s Razor: NO EVIDENCE = NO EXISTENCE.

It means the same thing as "absence of evidence = evidence of absence." If there ain't no evidence, then your sorry ass thug does not exist.

Please provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.

rmfr

Craybelieves's picture
@arakish

@arakish

Bullshit depends on what you're looking for. In this case given my definition you're looking for a paradox. That's why my position is I do not believe in the non-existence of paradoxes.
I don't have to provide jack squat I haven't made a claim.

Cognostic's picture
@catholicray: No one here is

@catholicray: No one here is looking for a paradox. We are looking at someone scared shitless of an actual conversation. Yes you don't have to prove "RatShit" You can believe whatever you want to believe. You can remain ignorant your entire life and it affects none of us. Now take a cookie, go to your room and enjoy your delusions. (You have come onto an atheist site to argue that you don't have to prove anything. That was a brilliant move!)

arakish's picture
Cognostic: "(You have come

Cognostic: "(You have come onto an atheist site to argue that you don't have to prove anything. That was a brilliant move!)"

And adding. You don't have to prove anything due to the fact that you cannot even prove nothing. Three things NOFacts, Truth, Evidence. Without these, religion will be nothing more than lies plagiarized from myths, legends, faerie tales far older than ANY religion currently in existence.

You need to come up out of mommy's basement and see the world for what it truly is.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
"I don't have to provide jack

"I don't have to provide jack squat"

Then it's the perfect scenario for you, as that's pretty much what we always get. Seriously how long are you going to keep this nonsense up? Or do you think you and your beliefs have not been made to appear foolish enough yet?

Sorry, I mean or do you not think that your beliefs have not been made to not appear foolish enough yet.

arakish's picture
catholicray: "Bullshit

catholicray: "Bullshit depends on what you're looking for. In this case given my definition you're looking for a paradox. That's why my position is I do not believe in the non-existence of paradoxes. I don't have to provide jack squat I haven't made a claim."

"The theist position is that a deity exists."

The actual Theist position however is nothing more or less than a lack of belief in the non-existence of God(s).

I can simply say I don’t believe God does not exist.

YOUR CLAIMS as posted here.

That's why my position is I do not believe in the non-existence of paradoxes.

YOUR CLAIM as posted here.

Now who is the one full of bullshit and horse hoowhee? Like all Religious Absolutists, and their sub-species Apologists, you are so full of your own religious bullshit and holier-than-thou horse hoowhee, you CANNOT even smell the brain diarrhea you spew forth.

Special Note to MODS: The term "sub-species" above is not disparaging. It is simply stating the fact that Apologists are a sub-species of the Religious Absolutists.

THUS, until you can provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE because Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat, I shall forever say I do not believe your claims and you are so full of your own religious bullshit and holier-than-thou horse hoowhee, you CANNOT even smell the brain diarrhea you spew forth.

In case you need them again…

Religious Absolutist – anyone belonging to and possessing an inexorable belief in any religion because of their inability to utilize critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought, due to the Abrahamic absolutist beliefs, and is truly applicable to any inexorable religious believers, especially the worst subset, Apologists.

Apologist – a dastardly subset of the Religious Absolutists who practices apologetics, which is the assumption of presupposed conclusions that have nothing to do with reason and rationality and actual information and reality, creating irrational excuses and whatever conflicting ideas justifying their baseless assumptions, regardless of what the true facts are, through the use of beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiney-ass pleas, due to an indoctrinational conditioning that is so ingrained they never question the veracity of the nonsense they offer, or why they need to defend their faith at all.

The difference between a Religious Absolutist (a.k.a. – religious assholes) and a Religious Person (a.k.a. – civilized believer) is that the Absolutist completely believes the Bible/Qu'ran is inerrantly correct and will not accept any evidence that truthfully proves their beliefs are completely incorrect. A Religious Person actually believes science to be true and views the Bible/Qu'ran as basically a fairy tale, excepting the very few true truths it does hold.

Fallen @ AR: “Religion is a product of the imagination that was created to compensate for our primitive ignorance (ig•nur•uns), needing deliberate ignorance (ig•nor•uns) to survive in a reality that doesn’t need it anymore.

“Wish in one hand (religion) and do something with the other (science). Squeeze both hands real hard and see which one comes true.” — Prince Corwin, Chronicles of Amber

Think Critically about it.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
Unless someone can accurately

Unless someone can accurately define the deity they're asking about, I can't offer any probability on its existence. If the deity is posited as a broad unfalsifiable concept, as it is here, then I can't even say if it's possible or not, let alone comment on how probable it is.

Again this is true of all unfalsifiable concepts. I don't know why theists struggle with this simple epistemological concept. Then again, I don't understand why anyone would believe something exists when they admit they can KNOW nothing about its nature or existence. This to me is the definition of agnosticism, so why would I believe it?

If nothing is known about a claim, this demands I withhold belief until something is known. If nothing CAN be known about a claim then quite obviously I am not going to believe it, as this would mean I could believe literally any unfalsifiable claim anyone chose to make. Sad conspiracy theorists reason in this way where the absence of knowledge is a red rag to them that something is being hidden from them. The truth is there is simply nothing to know, as that is the very nature of unfalsifiable claims.

Sheldon's picture
"Certainly in arguments

"Certainly in arguments Theist posit that God exists. Atheist do the same thing."

Say what now?

"The actual Theist position however is nothing more or less than a lack of belief in the non-existence of God/s."

Same as every other time theists try this absurd nonsense, its twaddle.

Theism is the belief in a deity or deities.

Atheism is the lack or absence of that belief.

"I can simply say I don’t believe God does not exist."

Indeed you can, though this doesn't change the commonly used or dictionary definition of theism. Anymore than atheist claiming they believe or know no deity exists changes the definition of atheism ..

If you arbitrarily redefine words to suit your own position they lose all meaning in your arguments. That's all you're achieving here. Meaningless arguments...

"How is this actually different from the atheist position concerning the burden of proof?"

Because and for the gazillionth time, atheism is not a belief or a claim. An atheist has a burden of proof only if the make claims, and atheism doesn't require this.

Do you believe invisible mermaids exist?

Now think carefully before you answer, do you know that invisible mermaids don't exist?

Knowledge and belief are not the same. In the absence of knowledge of the validity if a claim which is the more rational position, belief or the withholding of belief?

I think the second position is the more rational, and I apply it without bias or prejudice.

Can you say the same? Or do you seriously expect us to believe that every single thing you don't believe is in fact a separate belief you hold?

So your "belief" that Macuilcozcacuauhtli the Aztec deity of gluttony, or Zeus don't exist carries a burden of proof then?

Craybelieves's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

I think if you follow the argument logically from the beginning position that I do not believe in the non-existence of God you logically end up with God being a logical option to believe in.

I don’t believe in the non existence of paradoxes.

Sheldon's picture
"I think if you follow the

"I think if you follow the argument logically from the beginning position that I do not believe in the non-existence of God you logically end up with God being a logical option to believe in."

Rubbish ray, do you think using a tsautology by the word logic before and after a claim makes it rational, seriously?

Whats more you have ignored my post content entirely and dishonestly yet again, as you've been told time and again that you're using a known fallacy in informal logic called argumentum ad ignorantiam. It is a fact that nothing can be asserted as rational if it contains a known logical fallacy. Ipso facto your claim is irrational if it contains a fallacy.

You're making a puerile and irrational claim that a claim or belief is justified until someone disproves it. That is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. Do you think we'll stop noticing or pointing this out if you repeat the fallacy enough times? What do you hope to gain here?

Arbitrarily redefining the dictionary makes your arguments meaningless. This isn't going to change.

toto974's picture
@Catholicray

@Catholicray

Since you missed it the first time...

This is a definition from a dictionary:

belief in the existence of a god or gods specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism

From another one :

Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
‘there are many different forms of theism’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theism

Another one :

Theism (pronounced THEE-ism) means “belief in one or more gods.” It covers a huge range of religious beliefs, notably the Abrahamic monotheisms, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

https://philosophyterms.com/theism/

Yet you say that the existence of these entities are not necessary?

You are saying that a lack of belief is a belief too.. Just so you can place a burden of proof on the atheists... Bad tactic as it is very obvious.

Why can't you understand that "as long as i have no direct evidence of particular god, especially as one like the abrahamic god, i will not affirm whatever about its nature"?

Sky Pilot's picture
catholicray,

catholicray,

"I don’t believe in the non existence of paradoxes."

Can you restate that in American English?

Do you believe that the paradoxes that you don't believe in are not paradoxes because you are incapable of not believing in paradoxes because if you believed in paradoxes that would be a paradox that you would never believe in because you believe in paradoxes except for the ones that you say that you don't believe in because paradoxes are paradoxes unless they are not paradoxes in which case you are the paradox?

Cognostic's picture
I do not believe in the non

I do not believe in the non-existence of God you logically end up with God being a logical option to believe in.

This has been addressed twice, Once by me. Not believing in the non-existence of god DOES NOT logically lead to anything but "not believing in the non-existence of god. It says nothing at all about what you do believe in.

This is just more inane bullshit posted in place of an actual conversation. It looks to me like a cowards attempt at trying to challenge his own belief system without admitting to himself that he is trying to challenge it. Perhaps you are fearful of the horrible sin of losing your delusions. Your fear of having a normal conversation lead your to hypocrisy and dishonesty.

David Killens's picture
@catholicray

@catholicray

"The actual Theist position however is nothing more or less than a lack of belief in the non-existence of God/s."

I see what you did there, use a double negative in an attempt to reverse the burden of proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CGyASDjE-U

Cognostic's picture
@David Killens: Excellent

@David Killens: Excellent Video - wish I would have found it first.

DISCUSSION OVER!

Sheldon's picture
Dave "God/s."

Dave "God/s."

I see what you did there, use a double negative in an attempt to reverse the burden of proof."

And how. It was tedious the first time around with ray's "I believe a deity exists, but not the claim a deity exists" absurdity.

One wonders in an atheist forum what theists hope to achieve with such manifestly erroneous and dishonest semantics..

Fall to our knees and exclaim "woe is me I've been wrong all these years not to believe. "

..sorry I mean wrong not to not not believe....or is it to believe not to believe?

Christ on a bike....pathetic nonsense.

Can anyone really find this bs compelling in the absence of a single shred of objective evidence..

Apparently the depressing answer is yes...

toto974's picture
This is a definition from a

This is a definition from a dictionary:

belief in the existence of a god or gods specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism

From another one :

Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
‘there are many different forms of theism’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theism

Another one :

Theism (pronounced THEE-ism) means “belief in one or more gods.” It covers a huge range of religious beliefs, notably the Abrahamic monotheisms, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

https://philosophyterms.com/theism/

Yet you say that the existence of these entities are not necessary?

You are saying that a lack of belief is a belief too.. Just so you can place a burden of proof on the atheists... Bad tactic as it is very obvious.

Why can't you understand that "as long as i have no direct evidence of particular god, especially as one like the abrahamic god, i will not affirm whatever about its nature"?

MTheory's picture
Curious catholicray,

Curious catholicray,

Do you believe the wafer served at mass is truly the Body of Christ?

Eucharist = cannibalism

Cognostic's picture
Catholic Puns

Catholic Puns

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