Theists, define your deity(ies) once and for all!

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Fahad's picture
Finally. Someone asked that.

Finally. Someone asked that.
So basically, the both points, 1 and 2 are similar.
Problems it created, or the way it harmed the society. Well one just needs to look at statistics, just see where Atheists live. One might say, best place, US, it is super power, it is secular, and definitely, secularity paves way to Atheism. So what US did? Or if we more specifically say, West is good place with lots of Atheists compared to other parts of World. So what West did? West has highest crime rates in World. It has highest rape rates. US is the capital of rape. Acid Attacks? It's in West man.
Moreover, countries which are adopting Western style, suffer same, Like India, 2nd highest rape rate.
In case of killing, US destroyed Libya killing hundreds of innocent, destroyed and is by the way destroying Iraq, killing hundreds, Supports Israel, which has worst UN history and is ethnically cleansing Palestinians, it destroyed democratic Iran and forced it under dictatorship, it destroyed Afghanistan, made drugs available in Afghanistan, and in fact CIA involved in drug businesses, and countless other crimes. .
The belief in Atheism allows you to be the judge of what you do, it is very basic error in human mindset, cause you must not be judge of what you do cause you can always justify yourself, I started a thread, in which I talked about same issue but the site moderators deleted it and stuff like that. Idk about that.
What this movement has achieved so far? Unbalanced distribution of Money, citizens living under debt killing, intolerance, racism, hatred and countless other stuff, each problem deserves a thread and debate of its own about its causes.
If anyone out there, want to talk About tolerance within religions, he is most welcome to open up a new thread and inviting me there, this thread is very messed up now and out of its original topic.

CyberLN's picture
Farad, I will respond to a

Farad, I will respond to a few items in your post:

“Problems it created, or the way it harmed the society. Well one just needs to look at statistics, just see where Atheists live. One might say, best place, US, it is super power, it is secular, and definitely, secularity paves way to Atheism.”

The U.S. is actually religious compared to countries such as Japan. Tell us what the quality of life is like there.

“US is the capital of rape.”

You best look that up. You’re incorrect.

“The belief in Atheism allows you to be the judge of what you do, it is very basic error in human mindset, cause you must not be judge of what you do cause you can always justify yourself,”

Atheist is not a belief. The rest of the above statement doesn’t demonstrate a difference from one person to any other.

“I started a thread, in which I talked about same issue but the site moderators deleted it and stuff like that. Idk about that.”

No, I am a site mod. We did NOT delete any posts or threads of yours on purpose. There was a cyber attack and we lost several days worth of posts.

“What this movement has achieved so far? Unbalanced distribution of Money, citizens living under debt killing, intolerance, racism, hatred and countless other stuff, each problem deserves a thread and debate of its own about its causes.”

Please cite, in detail, how I, as an atheist, am intolerant, racist, hate others, etc.

David Killens's picture
@Fahad

@Fahad

"In case of killing, US destroyed Libya killing hundreds of innocent, destroyed and is by the way destroying Iraq, killing hundreds, Supports Israel, which has worst UN history and is ethnically cleansing Palestinians, it destroyed democratic Iran and forced it under dictatorship, it destroyed Afghanistan, made drugs available in Afghanistan, and in fact CIA involved in drug businesses, and countless other crimes."

I agree, what the US is doing is atrocious, inhumane, and unconscionable. But please remember, all of those actions are decided and driven by theists, it is definitely NOT atheism behind any of those evil acts.

Your assertion about atheism and crime is incorrect. I suggest you withdraw that assertion, because there are valid studies that support the fact that predominantly atheist nations have lower crime rates.

Sheldon's picture
"The belief in Atheism"

"The belief in Atheism"

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the absence of belief in any deity or deities.

"destroyed democratic Iran and forced it under dictatorship,"

An Islamic dictatorship, credit where credit is due after all. Also I agree Israel policies have a poor record on Palestinian human rights, but many Israelis denounce that record, and lets nor forget Hamas, an Islamic terror organisation in Palestine with broad support are sworn to utterly destroy Israel, and Israel has every right as a nation state to defend itself against such terrorism, regardless of the origin of that state. The root of their problems are intractable religious beliefs that lay claims for a divine right to contested territories.

"The belief in Atheism allows you to be the judge of what you do, it is very basic error in human mindset, cause you must not be judge of what you do cause you can always justify yourself, "

As I said atheism is not a belief, but I have read that sentence over and over and can make no sense of it sorry. what does it even mean?

Sheldon's picture
You're just piling

You're just piling unevidenced claims up one after the other. What objective evidence do you claim the koran has for a deity? If it contains any then you can demonstrate here, easily.

Fahad's picture
What the hell you keep asking

What the hell you keep asking about objective evidence?
Got it?
Not for everything you need to be objective. We can proof God is there, how? We evaluate what God gave us, In my opinion Quran.
You wanna evaluate Quran, open up a new thread, this thread is not about this. It was about defining, not proving.

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Sheldon's picture
How is it possible to

How is it possible to accurately define a deity without offering any objective evidence to support it?

"We can proof God is there, how? We evaluate what God gave us, In my opinion Quran."

So I ask for objective evidence and you offer a repetition of your opinion? Again if the koran contains any objective evidence for your deity then please demonstrate it here, it should be easy, yet all you keep doing is repeating the unevidenced claim.

"this thread is not about this. It was about defining, not proving."

Once again then since this simple facts seems to be lost on you, one cannot accurately define anything without sufficient objective evidence. Your definition was nothing more than a string of unevidenced assumptions, as theists and religious apologists always seem wont to do. Now I will keep asking for evidence as long as theists keep making claims without it, nor does this require a new thread, as it it is entirely apropos for your claims in this thread.

Now what objective evidence can you demonstrate for your deity or your definition of it?

Fahad's picture
What the hell you keep asking

What the hell you keep asking about objective evidence?
Got it?
Not for everything you need to be objective. We can proof God is there, how? We evaluate what God gave us, In my opinion Quran.
You wanna evaluate Quran, open up a new thread, this thread is not about this. It was about defining, not proving.

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arakish's picture
Fahad: "Cause One of the

Fahad: "Cause One of the characteristic of God is that it is not present in any dimension, he created this universe, and he is not part of this universe, therefore, you can't see."

Notice bold emphasis above. You just described how something DOES NOT exist.

The ONLY evidence the Qu'ran gives is what should be done with non-believers. Death to all infidels. And if you contradict this FACTS (Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science), then you are nothing more than a gullible con artist for Islam.

rmfr

Fahad's picture
I'm highly doubtful You ever

Arakish
I'm highly doubtful You ever read Quran. I find lot of other stuff in it.
I'm not saying God exists in this universe, I'm just saying it exists, in what form, idk. But how we see him, we see him by his signs
“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth”

[Fussilat 41:53]

arakish's picture
@ Fahad

@ Fahad

You wrote:

Arakish
I'm highly doubtful You ever read Quran. I find lot of other stuff in it.
I'm not saying God exists in this universe, I'm just saying it exists, in what form, idk. But how we see him, we see him by his signs
“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth”

[Fussilat 41:53]

In response to

Fahad: "Cause One of the characteristic of God is that it is not present in any dimension, he created this universe, and he is not part of this universe, therefore, you can't see."

Notice bold emphasis above. You just described how something DOES NOT exist.

The ONLY evidence the Qu'ran gives is what should be done with non-believers. Death to all infidels. And if you contradict this FACTS (Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science), then you are nothing more than a gullible con artist for Islam.

And you my dear sir, as kindly as I can put it, are full of bullshit and horse hoowhee. So full of it you cannot smell the brain diarrhea you spew forth.

Now let me touch on this bullshit and horse hoowhee you have dumped all our nice lovely home. ***several expletives can heard to rumbled by a tree as it cleans Fahad's crap***

"I'm highly doubtful You ever read Quran. I find lot of other stuff in it."

Of course you find nothing but cherries. You are too damned afraid to spetic tank diving to look for Allah's Nastiest Turd. You should go back to school and learn how to think critically, and utilize logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought. Something you have shown no capability.

If all you are going to do is look for cherries on cherry trees, then you will never be able to think critically for yourself. You need to read the whole thing verse by verse, one verse at a time, thinking critically about what each verse says. You cannot see the PURE EVIL done by religion if all you do is read large chunks of verses, skipping over the bad shit. Start thinking for yourself.

"I'm not saying God exists in this universe, I'm just saying it exists, in what form, idk. But how we see him, we see him by his signs."

What signs? Do you have any objective hard empirical evidence for these signs?

Qui asserit, onus probandi non habet qui autem negaverit. Non solum qui criticum probat contra asserit morionem.

And a verse from the Fussilat 41:53 “We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth.

Pure BULLSHIT! And Horse Hoowhee.

Just the same thing as what is written in Bible, re-worded, that your thieving, murdering, child-raping wannabe warlord plagiarized for his own self-aggrandizement.

Psalm 19:1-6 — “The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. Day after day they pour out speech, and night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their voice has gone out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his room, like a strong man rejoicing to run his course. His going out is from the end of the heavens, his circuit to its ends.

Hey Everybody,

I think we got us a new "NOT searching for truth." What y'all think?

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
I've never read Harry Potter,

I've never read Harry Potter, this doesn't stop me laughing at anyone who claims WITHOUT DEMONSTRATING ANY OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE, that wizards are real.

"“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth”

Chop chop then, as the endless unevidenced claims are becoming a bit tedious.

rat spit's picture
For the record, I’m not a

For the record, I’m not a theist. I’m a pretheist. I believe in a Being who predates any religion or form of worship. To define Him :

Very Powerful
Industrial Grade Steel Toilet
Sees the Future
Grumpy
Sends People to Hell
Doesn’t Want to be Bothered
Invented the Evil One to deal with humans
Non-Local/Non-Spatial Existence (unless he chooses otherwise).

That’s all I can think of.

Sheldon's picture
You claimed you believed in a

You claimed you believed in a superhuman entity, and that you called it "god". You have repeatedly claimed it intervenes in the universe to control everyone's thoughts.

That's a theist.

Theism
noun
belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

ratspit "Until science can convince me that I’m not interacting with a Diety"

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/no-atheist-shall-pass#...

That is a claim you are a theist right there. It's also a text book appeal to ignorance fallacy.

rat spit's picture
Again. No. You’re wrong.

Again. No. You’re wrong. Maybe you’ve misread me. I might call him “my god” in conventional terms - because I know Him personally and He is a Supreme Being.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven’t claimed that He is a god. He’s an industrial grade steel toilet, Sheldon. That’s all you need to know.

He doesn’t intervene in the world and He isn’t putting thoughts into people’s head. That’s the work of the Evil One - or rather the sphere of the Evil One’s.

You really want to paint me as a Theist, I know.

rat spit's picture
Furthermore, this Supreme

Furthermore, this Supreme Being doesn’t fit any of the criteria of the usual God.

He didn’t create the world or humans
He isn’t eternal AFAIK
He doesn’t pass down laws for humans

Look. He evolved into a perfect Being. Basically no one can touch Him. Therefore, he is Supreme. He’s like Zeus, okay. Does that make you happy. I believe in Zeus. Okay? I’m a pantheist now. Are you happy?

Sheldon's picture
He's an unevidenced fiction

He's an unevidenced fiction you've created, same as all the other deities. I know theists like to fiddle with the deities they create, but it has no more meaning or relevance that an encyclopedia on the care and rearing of mermaids.

Sheldon's picture
ratspit "Stop putting words

ratspit "Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven’t claimed that He is a god."

Right here.....>>>> "Until science can convince me that I’m not interacting with a ****Diety*****"

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/no-atheist-shall-pass#...

rat "He doesn’t intervene in the world "

You have repeatedly claimed he does, that he talks to you and your thoughts are not your own but come from him.

rat "You really want to paint me as a Theist, I know."

Nope, I could care less, it's you who have repeatedly made claims that define you as a theist. You also like to try and use woo woo and dishonest semantics, nevertheless you have claimed to believe in a deity, and that you call it god, amd tat intervenes in the universe by talking to you.

Sheldon's picture
ratspit "Stop putting words

ratspit "Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven’t claimed that He is a god."

Right here...

ratspit "Until science can convince me that I’m not interacting with a ***Diety"

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/no-atheist-shall-pass#...

You know that a deity is a god right? So they are your words, and nothing to do with me. Do stop lying there's a good chap.

David Killens's picture
rat spit, you just described

rat spit, you just described the software that controls a self-flushing toilet.

rat spit's picture
Thank you, David. At least

Thank you, David. At least someone understands.

Sheldon - one word. Rat spit’s fork. If you don’t acknowledge the existence of Supreme Beings inside my head - I am no longer obliged to acknowledge your personal existence either. And - believe me; that would be a tremendous boon for me at this stage of getting to know your modes of attack.

One word. Small penis. Greasy wiener boob.

Sheldon's picture
My existence is an objective

My existence is an objective fact precisely because I can demonstrate objective evidence for it, your inane fantasy is not, else you'd be able to demonstrate objective evidence for that. THAT'S the difference, and please don't waste my time pretending you don't know this.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what objective facts you want to deny in another of your tantrums, or which you acknowledge as valid, I'm mystified as to why you think anyone cares? They remain objective facts, your claims remain bizarre unevidenced fantasies. This is of course as I have said again and again a facile argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, in an attempt to reverse the burden of proof, and try to obfuscate from the fact you can demonstrate not one shred of evidence for your arrogant bizarre fantasy that a "supreme being" talks directly to you, pure egotistical nonsense.

rat "One word. Small penis. Greasy wiener boob."

One word? You've outdone yourself champ, but that sentence is perhaps best reserved for your personal blog. You really need to grow up, is that what a "supreme being" whispers to you, cock jokes? You've lied repeatedly about what you have said and the evidence is there for all to see. Though typically as a theist your reaction to having your duplicity exposed is yet more puerile ad hominem.

Suck it up, no one likes a cry baby.

You have claimed repeatedly to be a theist, and that's a fact whether you are mature or intelligent enough to acknowledge it or not. If it was your error then be a man about it, instead of childishly attacking me for pointing it out.

Cognostic's picture
@In Spirit I just copied

@In Spirit I just copied and pasted the comment below because I know you will say something to contradict it in just a moment. Okay, back to reading your post.

"I believe that if anyone wants to believe in a god that they should find it in the real world and not in any written medium and then keep it to themselves."

AND HERE WE GO ------ "My personal experiences tell me there is something out there. I will call it an entity."

No - your personal experiences are within you. You are projecting them "out there." This is called "animism." It is attributing motivation and consciousness to the world around us, whether or not things are conscious or motivating. This is hard wired, genetically, into our existence. EXAMPLE: Two cave men were walking along a dirt path when up ahead of them the bushes on the side of the path began to rustle. One of the men yelled "Tiger" and ran away. The other thought, "Just the wind." and was eaten by the tiger. There was once survival value in attributing intent to the inanimate. This is no longer the case; however, this trait has been passed on through genes for uncountable generations.

Your personal experiences are real. Your attributions are in direct contradiction to your statement "God should be found in the real world." You have not found God in the real world. You simply project your god onto the real world. Any and all explorations into the real world reveal to you that you are seeing things where there is nothing to be seen. You are manifesting your own version of god and placing it out there in the world, unjustifiably.

" I have had extrasensory perceptions." You have not had extrasensory perceptions as they do not exist. No one at any time has ever produced any evidence what so ever for these imaginary perceptions. Every human being who has ever been tested for such perceptions has failed the tests. (Check out James Randi videos.) Why in the hell do you think Las Vegas is still in business? One person with any kind of extrasensory perception would clean Vegas out in a day. Vegas exists to take advantage of dopes who think they can predict outcomes better than the odds. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

" I have no idea. " is the one correct thing you have asserted. So why attribute it to something "out there" without evidence or support for the assertion? Why assume animism when none is evident or even supported. And of all things, why base all this on a heartfelt feeling and nothing more?

YES, WE ARE IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT - SO WHY GO THERE?
Truth is it can't be defined for I know hardly anything about it so all I have really stated is subjective and meaningless.

The things that happened will not help. They will be things that are non-verifiable. They will be things that you have not tested through repetition. They will be things without empirical evidence. Finally; they will be things based on WooWoo superstitious nonsense. If you want to continue thinking and believing the way you do, it is best to just keep them to yourself. Woo Woo, when exposed to logic and reason, can not exist.

In Spirit's picture
Hi Cognistic

Hi Cognistic

I like your down to earth educational and logical replies. You make me think and question and that's a good thing.

"@In Spirit I just copied and pasted the comment below because I know you will say something to contradict it in just a moment."

I love what you wrote here. It gave me a chuckle wondering what I might be saying to contradict without having read the rest yet.

Now having read it all can you send me a link to a worthy dictionary that defines Animism. I have never heard of this word and what I am finding so far are many different meanings that confuse me even more.

Thanks

Nyarlathotep's picture
Animism is a term that

Animism is a term that describes a subset of religious beliefs. The belief that all objects (like rocks, water, air, etc) are alive/have soul/spirits.

In Spirit's picture
Nyarlathotep

Nyarlathotep

Would the definition compare to aboriginal Indian beliefs in North America?

Nyarlathotep's picture
In Spirit - Would the

In Spirit - Would the definition compare to aboriginal Indian beliefs in North America?

I've had very little experience with those religions, I really can't say.

Doug R's picture
I agree with your original

I agree with your original post. I too have had experiences of ESP throughout my life, and indeed have learned how to facilitate them. (I haven't learned how to absolutely, 100% ensure they happen every time, but I'm very close). Fact is, critical thinkers (I am one myself) tend to ASSUME that it's hokum, which is the antithesis of critical thinking. I was booted off the Street Epistemology FB group because THEY refuse to have an open mind about such things. I've done my best to convince mathematicians, scientists, and many other highly intelligent individuals. Even members of the Magic Circle. ALL of them simply claim it's "coincidence".

Anyway, I am able to point you in the right direction, having researched this my entire life (and the truth emerged almost entirely from personal reflection, albeit I have read science and philosophy extensively).

What you are experiencing is an above-average innate connection with "Collective Consciousness". In essence, all it is, is the coming together of two or more individuals in a conscious and combined effort or endeavour. There are literally trillions of different collective consciousnesses, and every one of us is part of hundreds or thousands of them. I call them "bubbles of consciousness" as a metaphor to aid understanding the concept.

As you read this message, your consciousness and mine are sharing ideas. From now on, a tiny part of my consciousness has been transferred into yours. This happens every time we have a conversation, watch the TV, or read a book. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

A door is a fairly mundane object, you might think. But that's because they are so ubiquitous. In reality, the door is a marvel of engineering. Our forebears invented the door, and we take it for granted. But every time you walk through a door, you are subconsciously enjoying the fruits of design from men who died thousands of years ago. That is to say, you are experiencing ideas that emerged from their consciousness. You are in this way, subconsciously connected to these long dead Humans, even though you don't think about it.

If you explore this concept, you start to realise that everything around you that is Man-made, and nearly every thought in your head, is the result of connected (or collective) consciousness.

A great mind experiment is to identify thoughts which you can categorically say are original, and not at least partly dependent upon the consciousness of other Humans. Once you recognise what KINDS of thoughts these are, your mind will be opening up to a deeper spiritual understanding of reality.

NewSkeptic's picture
@Dougie

@Dougie

You have entered another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Your thoughts exist only in, the Twilight Zone!

Now that we are bubbliciously connected, perhaps you could send me a check, would really help with my kids college expenses.

In the meantime, I think your caregiver is on the way through that mystical door. You must have soiled yourself again.

Cognostic's picture
Call it agency, animism, in

Call it agency, animism, in short, something is alive in the bushes and it is out to get you. The individual with the most responsive fear reaction will survive. Richard Dawkins uses this analogy in some of his lectures. In my use, something is moving, it's alive (not the wind) and it is dangerous, "Run Away."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

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