The Transgender deulusion

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Algebe's picture
@Terminal Dogma: I think

@Terminal Dogma: I think transgenderism is anti-natal which would seem unnatural and anti-evolutionary

And I think that throughout the history of our species, a significant percentage of individuals have always lived and died without reproducing, while some males (e.g., Genghis Khan) have left vast numbers of progeny. I can also see significant evolutionary advantages in having non-reproducing (gay, trans, etc.) uncles and aunts to support breeding couples.

What do you mean by "unnatural"? Religious bigots like to fling that word around to justify their prejudices.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Unnatural as in goes against

Unnatural as in goes against the obvious natural instinct to reproduce and perpetuate the species found in every living thing that is not sick or physically/mentally defective.

LogicFTW's picture
Quite a few of our closest

Quite a few of our closest animal relatives display homosexual behavior, chimps, bonobos, etc. Many other of our more distant animal relatives do too.

I need to look it up to verify, but I believe every animal species that has been shown to have sex for pleasure, (like us humans,) have also shown homosexual behavior. Homosexual activity sounds pretty natural to me.

arakish's picture
There was a nature

There was a nature documentary about this some years ago. Forget the name, forget the channel. Damn wish this Alzheimer's would go away.

This documentary showed so many, many different species of mammals displaying homosexual behaviors. Basically, what I drew from that documentary is that ALL mammals have homosexual behaviors.

I would go look for this in papers, but I feel if Terminal Dogmatism wants to know for sure, then he get up off his lazy ass and search for himself.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
That doesn't make it

That doesn't make it unnatural, and there is mountains of research showing homosexuality is natural. However a more salient point is that, cars and planes and boats are unnatural, as are houses, also science and medical care of any kind, along with of course art, music, philosophy, logic etc etc..

Paradoxically and just off the top of my head, rape, killing, cannibalism, even of your own offspring, and incest are all natural.

I think this amply shows that unnatural behaviours are not necessarily pernicious or immoral, anymore than natural behaviours are guaranteed to be beneficial or moral.

Sheldon's picture
I think what you think is

I think what you think is wrong.

Now where do we go?

Qu@si's picture
"deulusion"

"deulusion"

even the OP is wrong...so where do we run?

Searching for truth's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe

you clearly either misunderstood my original post or chose to ignore it. This conversation has 0 to do with religion or feelings but, you can try and turn it in to that. I won't address them since they have 0 to do with this topic.

Algebe's picture
@Searching for Truth:

@Searching for Truth:

You obviously thought this issue had something to do with atheism, or you wouldn't have raised it here. I responded in that context.

So why did you choose to air your prejudice in this forum?

Searching for truth's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe

"Last time I checked, foreskins and clitorises were manifestations of the "most basic levels of biology", yet two of the world's major religions insist on slicing them off infants to please their imaginary friends.

Rational thought is also an emergent quality of the "most basic levels of biology", but religious people somehow suppress it and turn themselves into birdbrains.

That's all religion and 100% irrelevant.

"You obviously thought this issue had something to do with atheism"

While i do not think being trans directly means a person is an atheist, most of trans that i have seen (in a video, comment sections or written an article) have identified as atheist. I am not sure if they identify as an atheist because it seems to not "condemn" them or because it agrees or ignores them. While i will admit this is a small sample size and does NOT mean all trans are atheist. The other reason i brought it up here is the people that post here that are not too busy being assholes and trolls seem to focus on science, and this issue seems ignore science for feelings. So, i was looking to hear from the ones that focus on science to see what they think and make a case for or against this issue using science( not feelings).

LogicFTW's picture
To me science seems to

To me science seems to explain transgender just fine.

Nature/science does not care what thought patterns you have in your head about social norms. Society, culture etc at this day and age decided that "girls" like to play with dolls, where dresses, like the color pink, be more soft and caring, where "boys" are supposed to be more gruff, play in the dirt, etc. -- Lots of examples where: makeup, dresses, high heels, stockings, etc were originally worn by men, and later women adopted those styles but men abandoned them.

Nature/science does not care about any of that, we are a part of nature, if a brain decides to switch up those roles there is nothing wrong with that. Nature also does not care if a person feels if they are the opposite gender but wants to take on the sex of the opposite type in the reproduction cycle. It wont work. Modern medical science can change some physical traits, but is not at the point where a person lacking certain sexual organs can carry a baby to term. Although the tech is not far off as some people would like to think it is. At current rates of advancement, human sex identity may change a lot, or disappear almost entirely.

LogicFTW's picture
Hmm sticking to science...

Hmm sticking to science... well, I will try, do not know what you will consider science or not.

TLDR: Biological sex is science, gender choice is personal. Like anyone that makes a personal decision important to them those that choose to be transgender should be supported through a difficult transition.

...read on for the rationale behind my TLDR.

Gender is essentially a more advanced version of cell mitosis. The relentless push of efficiency via evolution has made simple cellular division more complex, especially in humans.

First we got dna, the code that every cell has that carries the instructions on how an advanced organism can build and live.
- Then we have the cycle, where instead of simple cellular division we have a sort of "start over" where a new form of the collection of cells working together is created, in a scenario where the host body provides it protection and energy to give the new cellular grouping a chance to survive.
- Then we have another advanced evolutionary trait where instead of only using 1 organism's dna to reproduce asexually. The organism reproduces sexually. Hence the two sexual genders most animal species have. Two genders also give the advantage that they can also form a bit differently from each other to compliment each other, forming new strengths to cover weakness, for instance the male providing food for the female and young.

Okay, basic biology lesson is over. Hopefully most everyone knew all this already...
Now that we are all on the same page on sex of a species...

Now gender.

Gender is a series of traits we identify to go with the sexes, but there is not much biologically that tells us we must act on certain traits (gender) of their sex. It is very easy biologically to want to go with a different set of traits. The mind is very complex and not much is known about it. But like many other social aspects and behavioral aspects you cannot assign a specific behavior to a particular person, whether it be race, gender, age and so on.

So cross gender people are simply going with what they feel their gender to be. It is not a disease, it may be a more rare trait, but it harms no one, as far as behavioral traits go, it is actually quite benign. Why people have problem with transgenders is beyond me, they pose no threat, especially compared to someone that carries a trait to be prone to bouts of violent rage.

Sure, many transgenders wish to assign physical traits that more closely matches the gender they wish, there is nothing wrong with that. It is difficult to be a gender that is opposite to what your outward appearance is, these people should be supported with loving understanding, just like any other trait one may develop that is not harmful to others or themselves.

Algebe's picture
@Searching for truth: most of

@Searching for truth: most of trans that i have seen........have identified as atheist

Perhaps they felt unwelcome in the mainstream religions. I wonder why. Or do you see some causal link between transgenderism and atheism, or vice versa?

Are you saying that transgenderism has no scientific basis?

Terminal Dogma's picture
Faark people have to stop

Faark people have to stop thinking atheism is anything more than a lack of belief in God/s.

Atheism does not make anyone a moral, political, sociological....or anything expert.

Of course atheism doesn't prevent anyone from becoming an expert on anything just the same for theists really.

Searching for truth's picture
@LogicForTW

@LogicForTW

"So cross gender people are simply going with what they feel their gender to be. It is not a disease, it may be a more rare trait, but it harms no one, as far as behavioral traits go, it is actually quite benign. Why people have problem with transgenders is beyond me, they pose no threat, especially compared to someone that carries a trait to be prone to bouts of violent rage."

In the way you described it here, yes, is does not pose a threat. However, this is far from reality. While I prefer to keep this conversation "opinion and feelings free" I must disagree with you saying "they pose no threat" when it comes to the real world. Ask the parents of trans people what they think, ask the men that identify as women if they feel a threat when the man competes in their sport (woman wrestling women while taking testosterone and men racing against women to name a few). Also, Toronto and NY have laws that consider speech against trans people to be hate speech, even it is scientifically and factually accurate. When we look at the trans issue and how it has effected people in the real world, it's completely different than what it looks like on paper. According to a study done by UCLA in 2016 the trans community is 0.6% of the US population. So why are the remaining 99.4% having to change almost every aspect of their public life to accommodate the 0.6% when it comes to school sports, bathrooms, speech (pro-nouns and others) and maybe a few others I can't think at the moment.

Also, in regards of it’s not hurting people, look up how parents are reacting to their trans kids. Some are ok with it while others are extremely hurt by it. While I am not saying either parent is right or wrong, I am saying that it ultimately does hurt someone. Finally, I don’t think we can’t ignore the 41% suicide rate the trans community is at. I don’t think something that is not harmful at all will result in a 41% suicide rate.

Oh, 1 last point. The way some teachers ( you can look it up) are currently teaching kids that it’s to be gay, trans or whatever. This actually hurts the kids and confuses as in almost all of the cases that goes directly against what they are taught at home and causing parents to complaing.

Link to UCLA study

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults...

Jared Alesi's picture
1. The first issue you

1. The first issue you propose is a non-issue. Any perceived unfairness in a sport is not a threat. Harm to humans is a threat, not the hurt feelings of an athlete.

2. Find me those laws.

3. Sharing bathrooms, sportsmanship, and proper pronoun usage are all skills already possessed by children over the age of 5. Gender specific bathrooms are dumb anyway, in my opinion. But if you think that being a decent person and referring to a person by their preferred pronouns is "having to change almost every aspect of your public life", you have serious ego problems. And if you only have to do it for 0.6% of people, you'll likely never have to do it at all.

4. Teaching kids is not the problem. Kids understand this stuff just fine. No kid is having an identity crisis over learning that transgender people exist. The only people that are confused are the parents that think like you do; that transgender is a disease and homosexuality is unnatural. Also, what's taught at school should take precedence over what's taught at home, every time. Parents are usually not as informed as teachers. Every parent that objects to their kids learning this stuff, I guarantee knows nothing about it.

5. Suicide rates are high, but care to guess why? When uninformed idiots with no sense of humanity form the majority of society and insist that your personal identity is a delusion, I would probably want to kill myself too. Not to mention that the demographic you gave is incomplete. Hardly any of those suicides are committed by transgender people that have completed their transitioning or at least started the procedure. Most of the suicides are teens that lived in unaccepting homes or communities, and never got the help they needed.

Conclusion:

You know next to nothing about transgender people or their struggles, even less about child education, and nothing about external factors of suicide. Yet you seem content to conclude that transgender people are somehow unnatural, despite your lack of any useful knowledge on the subject. You sir, are an ass. Have a lovely day, fuckweed.

Peurii's picture
@Jared Alesi

@Jared Alesi
I am sorry, but you will only strengthen a person's conviction of the opposite position from yours by calling them names.

Jared Alesi's picture
I'm well aware of that. This

I'm well aware of that. This particular individual is not swayed by reason, and I suspect everyone here knows that perfectly well. The name calling was purely for my own benefit, as arguing over the rights of people to simply exist without persecution with one so bereft of cognitive faculties as this one can leave me with a great deal of stress. At any rate, my points were accurate and articulate, so if anyone lurking happened to read my response, and had any shred of competence, they could learn something.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jared

@ Jared
We have a long and honorable tradition of vituperative abuse being served to where it is deserved. Well done, well said. I was sat on the sidelines fuming at the ignorance and lack of common decency displayed in the OP and subsequent dismissive quick quip replies, your post came as a safety valve and breath of fresh air...10,000 agrees to you sir!

Tin-Man's picture
@Peurii Re: Jared's remarks

@Peurii Re: Jared's remarks

Howdy, Peurii. I'm guessing you are not very familiar with our Hulkster friend (Searching for Truth). Come to think of it, you may not have been around during the first few times he visited the site. Rest assured, Jared's comments were..... well, "justified" may not be exactly the correct word, but let's just say our young Jared is not usually prone to slinging off-handed insults toward folks. Some of us on here have dealt with our ol' buddy Hulk-a-mania many times as of date, and I for one definitely know how trying he can be to one's patience. *chuckle*

Speaking of Hulkster.... Hey! How the hell ya been doin', you big green mass of muscle? Still stirring the pot, I see. *chuckle* Missed you, big guy. Anyway, just to put my two cents worth in on the OP, I simply do not understand why people in general have such a problem with addressing a person in whatever manner that individual wishes to be addressed. And although I am not any type of scientist or biologist, I also fail to see how being a transgender could possibly be considered a "disease" or an "illness" of any type. As far as it being a "mental disorder", people cannot help how their brains or hormones function. They feel how they feel. In many cases, I would imagine many transgender are already confused enough about their particular situation, especially if they do not have the love and support of family and friends. In my opinion, labeling them as "mentally ill" and trying to convince them they are wrong for feeling the way they do is certainly not going to help clear their confusion. Damn good recipe for depression and thoughts of suicide, as a matter of fact. Gee, imagine that.

The human body and brain are incredibly complex structures. No two systems are identical. Yes, we may have a baseline "normal" as being strictly male/strictly female, but obviously there are hundreds of variations of that going out in either direction from there. As long as an individual is not causing any harm to others, why should that individual be penalized simply because he/she does not match some pre-conceived and highly subjective definition of "normal"? And with the medical advances we have today, if a person is able to have surgery to help change into whatever "gender" allows them to feel comfortable and live a healthy and happy life, then - by golly - there's nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. Why would anyone NOT want another person to feel happy and comfortable with themselves?

Now, all that being said, are there transgender people out there with mental illness issues? Well - duh - no doubt there are. So what? I happen to know and have dealt with many individuals who were NOT transgender who had plenty of mental illness issues. Point being, just because a person is a transgender does not automatically make that individual mentally ill. And for those who do suffer from depression and/or any other type of psychological problems, I hope they have available to them competent and understanding therapists who will not make the stupid mistake of trying to convince them that their being transgender is the problem and that they need to change how they feel. See what I mean?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Now here is yet another post from 'Ol Clanker that deserves the 10,000 Agrees button. The only thing I take issue with is " well, "justified" may not be exactly the correct word, yes, yes it is the exact, the correct word.

I will use a couple more: Fuck all ignorant bigots, especially the religious kind. May they burn in their own special hell; the one that they condemn lovely human beings to, when all they want to do is left to live their own lives, in their own way, by their own choice. If I was dealing out justice it would be the fucking bigots I would be lashing with red hot whips and burning their flesh again and again until they realised they we are ALL humans FFS. Grrrrrrrrr!!!!

arakish's picture
You and TM both deserve the

You and TM both deserve the 10K Agrees. I have said many of the same things you two have just said. If I weren't so damned lazy (read as actually "so damned busy"), I'd go find all those posts and list the links here just for our big green mass of muscles to read.

You know, I think our muscular friend may have one muscle too many. Instead of a brain...

rmfr

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "The only thing

@Old Man Re: "The only thing I take issue with is " well, "justified" may not be exactly the correct word..."

Oh, my bad. Guess I should have clarified a bit more. The reason I said that is because I could not at that moment think of a stronger word for "justified". Meaning I do believe Jared was very much justified, but was at a loss for a better way of putting it. lol

LogicFTW's picture
@Searching for truth

@Searching for truth
All this talk of trying to keep people's opinion out of it and then you go and break your own rule.

So you speak of reality: what threat does a transgender have to someone. Would you rather have a known violent rapist in a private room alone with your little kid (if you had one, if not picture a young child of some close friend of family member.) Or would you rather have your average transgender person?

The reality is: and statistics back this up, transgender people have lower rates of commiting crimes, especially violent ones towards other than your average non transgender person. Reality is, you would pick the transgender person to be alone with your kid then a known violent rapist alone with your kid. Furthermore and statistics back this up, if you had a choice, your average non transgender person alone with a little kid versus a transgender person, your odds of your kid being fine with either of them is high, but even higher among transgender people.

People do not have to change anywhere near close to every aspect of their life for a transgender person. For the very reason you stated, quite a bit less than 1% of the population is transgender. How often have you come across a transgender person and know it? You have to change nothing about your life. Stop being so scared of the boogeyman, it certainly is not transgenders. They need our support. What exactly would people have to change about school sports, bathrooms and speech? Almost no one is asking for laws to be made or people to change their speech regarding pronouns etc. Asking for common decency and politeness is a fair ask for anyone. Bathrooms do not need to change, let people use the bathroom they identify with, their are privacy stalls in each bathroom, everyone minds their own business, just like they do everyday. Transgender people will not feel threatened and would not need an extra bathroom just for their own safety. School sports do not need to change for 99% the only thing is, possibly at college level, considerations will have to be made for hormone therapy, just like using any other possible performance enhancing drugs, hormone therapy will have to be regulated in sports to make sure the sport stays fair.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with teachers teaching tolerance and respect and teaching kids to be welcoming towards "..gay, trans or whatever. " The kid is confused possibly because the parents are teaching intolerance to the "dreaded" other at home.

The harm being done here is 1 sided, its towards transgender people, like you said the suicide rates of transgenders are really high. If everyone was more welcoming, or at the very least tolerant towards transgenders instead of being scared of the boogeyman that is really harmless to them, the suicide rate would no longer be an issue. There is no physical violence when it comes to someone choosing to be transgender.

Sheldon's picture
Ah I understand you now. When

Ah I understand you now. When you say you want to "keep this feelings and opinion free", you mean the opinions and feelings of everyone and everything that contradict yours.

I think without resorting to vituperations you know what you can do with your nasty bigoted opinions.

Have a nice day...

Or if faux sacharrine platitudes are not for you then please suffer for the rest of your miserable life, as your bigotry is insisting others must do.

arakish's picture
Sheldon: Ah I understand you

Sheldon: Ah I understand you now. When you say you want to "keep this feelings and opinion free", you mean the opinions and feelings of everyone and everything that contradict yours.

ROFLMAO. If I had not gone to the rest room before reading this, it would have been ROFLMAOPOM.

rmfr

Searching for truth's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe

"Perhaps they felt unwelcome in the mainstream religions......"

Logically speaking, i completely see where the trans people are coming from. Why would you love a religion or group of people that consider you an "abomination"? The link i would say between Atheism and transgerism is that it lets people be free and do what they want without fear or thought of a "higher being". Trans people probably use atheism as way to justify their "existence". While i do not think they need to justify why they exist, seeing all the hate they receive from so called religious people i see where they are coming from.

Algebe's picture
@Searching for Truth: Why

@Searching for Truth: Why would you love a religion or group of people that consider you an "abomination"?

So transgender people face ostracism from the communities and even the families they've grown up in. They abandon the dubious comfort of religion. Many undergo surgery. To me this all sounds like empirical evidence that transgenderism is something inherent and natural that affects a small percentage of the population.

Sheldon's picture
"Trans people probably use

"Trans people probably use atheism as way to justify their "existence". "

Utter drivel.

Trans people no more need to justify who they are than anyone else. It's bigoted religious morons who think their delusional superstitions must be paid due deference by everyone else that are the problem.

Believe whatever you like, but you are the one who sought out an atheist forum to voice your vile prejudices, so fucking suck it up when the people here don't agree, and don't think people should be made to suffer because that delusional fictional belief preferences the feelings of a fictional bronze age deity over real conscious beings.

Searching for truth's picture
@chimp

@chimp

"I agree it was considered a disorder. I asked for evidence that it is a disease!"

Disease was a poor choice of a word on my point. I should have said disorder.

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