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I don't know. I suspect there was an historical Jesus, but it's only my opinion. I don't know how much of what's written of him is unique to him and how much is a composite character. I don't believe anything in the Bible proves he was the divine son of god- I'm afraid I'm not willing to take the book's word for it. Or Jesus' word for it- if indeed he ever really claimed it. Hell, I have words put in my mouth all the time- "You atheists", this and "All atheists" that: if believers do it to little old me, they do it to Jesus, too. They do do it - Bible verses deploring poor hospitality were twisted to mean something else entirely: the Westboro Baptist Church dined out on it for a long time. Still do.
I find the dearth of contemporary writings on Jesus very telling. The people of the times were meticulous record keepers- we still have their graffiti and shopping lists- yet a guy called Jesus is wandering around, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing lepers - and nobody noticed. Just as nobody noticed the commotion the day he was crucified or all those resurrected dead holy men and women turning up in town. Not one contemporary writer had anything to say about it. Odd that. Only makes sense if you consider the motivation believers have to claim "You atheists" this and "All atheists" that. Only makes sense when you've watched a theist add and subtract from Scripture to allow them to continue believing.
My most recent experience was watching a ID believer argue God must have changed the human body to be less perfect, less in His Image, after the Fall and Scripture just forgot to put that verse in or something. The discussion came after I pointed out my Top Twenty Human Body "Design" Flaws.
TL/DR? Yes, there probably was an historical Jesus. Yes, he probably was a powerful orator and communicator, with some seriously out of the box ideas. If the Sermon on the Mount really is his work, there's a case in point: so many ways you can take that thing, so many diametrically opposed ways. He quite possibly had one of those velvet voices- the kind you'd happily listen to reading the phone book- think Sean Connery, Christopher Hitchens and Seth Andrews. No. I don't believe the supernatural claims made for the man Jesus stand up.
Well the name Jesus used in the context of god does not really have solid provable documentation of being written about until 100's of years after his supposed death.
Do I think there was some sort of highly charismatic man that was a big part of the early start to christianity etc that had his legend grow through word of mouth and retellings? Seems likely but who knows.
It seems very likely the jesus character was made up for the most part through retellings and plagiarism loosely based on a charismatic early religious leader around 2000 years ago.
The fact remains there is no real evidence for the guy, it is all just 2000 years of heavily edited storytelling/recounting making wild unprovable claims. Just as much evidence exists for zeus, or any other god or son of god figure: none.
It's an absurd man made superstition without a shred of objective evidence to support it, so who cares if they created it around a real person or not.
Yeah it doesn't make difference in real terms. Still, if he was real I'd like to travel back in time to see the looks on peoples faces when he preached a grass roots socialist uprising in a Roman Imperial outpost. They'd have been gobsmacked, Shelly. "The meek shall inherit the earth": WTF? :-D
That's IF he said it and IF that's what he meant of course. There's a lot of ways to interpret the Sermon on the Mount. I don't have trouble believing a bloke called Jesus said it and meant it that way because MLK and Gandhi did, too. So did Marx, more or less.
Was there a religious adventurer named Yeshua who met a sticky end in the holy land during that period? Probably; probably more than one.
An MD from the Mayo Clinic as well as a few other doctors published results on an investigation on the physical death of Jesus by crucifixion and it was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. I mean, there is documented history on Jesus by people from various sects and religions, not just Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Plus, he certainly had a negative effect on religious people because they sure hated him enough to kill him.
I have long left the organized church and its absurd beliefs and perverted truths. I mean c’mon, how many different denominations all claiming to be THE truth?
If you ask me, I think Jesus was “saving” people from religious nuts and their religious laws by showing them how to live simple and free. I think he was telling people to get liberated from religious thinking and just love others, live the golden rule. That kinda screwed things up for the organized church because they wanted to control people and wanted their “tithes” (weekly money). Plus they liked being exalted for their “great religious knowledge” and shit. Manipulating people with guilt and shame. Jesus got in the way of their dominating others. It makes sense to me.
So yeah, I believe Jesus was a real person and I truly believe he hated religion, too. Maybe even hated it worse than we do. As for all the other effed up things religious nuts proclaim, I don’t believe them. Why? Because they can’t even live by the golden rule and they won't stop judging people.
Dr. Richard Carrier, has just completed the premier study on the subject. Almost anyone who makes the claim that Jesus probably did not exist is using information from his research. Dr. Carrier gives Jesus about a 33% chance of existing. That's actually pretty good.
"A "James" is mentioned in Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians, as one to whom Jesus appeared after his resurrection: Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. (1Corinthians 15:7). In the preceding verse, the same Greek word "adelphos" (brother) is ..."
There is no telling if this was a biological brother or a "Brother in Christ." All Christians were calling each other "brother" at the time.
There just isn't much else out there. Jesus looks like a sky god who was euhemerized.
I personally think it is a fantasy story told over camp fires with a mix of Old Testament retold tales and modern tales from other Gods and holy men from Greece.
"Was Jesus a real Historical figure or just a made up one?"
There is not one shred, jot or iota of contemporary evidence for a "jesus" figure as described in the synoptic gospels or "John" and which is worshipped today.
Whether an actual Jesus/yeshua figure existed that had an affect on the local populace in approx 28CE - 35CE existed is possible but totally without contemporary credible evidence.
There were a plethora of 1st century rabbis ( with contemporary records) preaching apocalyptic messages and performing sorcery (miracles) some gaining large followings which serves to confuse the issue.
We do know that all the so called evidence by the way of third hand, edited, translated, re-edited, culled and consolidated texts purporting to be eye witness accounts did not appear until at least 150 CE - 300 CE and were then subject to further editing and forced culls to suit the narrative of the God Emperor, and later political needs, right up until the present day.
We also have many early (2nd CE) christian writings that do not mention a Jesus or the alleged miracles, many more records of christian writings that insist that jesus was not divine ( the Arian "heresy" Ebionites and more), and records of other gospels culled by the Roman church on pain of death in 492CE.
So the question remaining is: Which jesus are you referring to in your OP?
@Old Man
Re: "So the question remaining is: Which jesus are you referring to in your OP?"
Hopefully IA will find time in his busy schedule denouncing atheists on poor Mikey's cry for help threads to clarify it, Old Man- but I won't hold my breath.
@ Sushi
I suspect, from both his individual posts and those of like minded 'drive by' posters he would rather remove his toenails with bamboo pliers than actually engage in historical research. But maybe I misjudge.
@Old Man
I gave him Tim Minchin's advice about being pro-things instead of anti-things, but nobody listens to gingers. I know this for a fact. Nobody listens. They just sing "I see red" @ us and fall about laughing.
@ Sushi guilty as charged...ashamed but,,,well, guilty.
@Old Man
Well, China. Here it is twenty minutes past midnight our time, and Inexorable Again has proven himself to be Inexorable Not Now Maybe Not Ever. He started this thread around 2pm this arvo, and he hasn't returned. It’s like waiting for Godot. Or the Second Coming. It's a little like this:
https://youtu.be/-hJQ18S6aag
And it's not as though he hasn't been around. He's been all over Mikey's threads, littering them with rants the way monkeys throw faeces. In fact, he was there just before 11pm.
Our Messiah has bailed on us. :-(
Jesus was just an ordinary man living on the fringes of society who unsuccessfully tried to make a career in various trades like carpentry, fishing and shepherding but luckily found his niche in preaching after inheriting a portion of a congregation led by John the Baptist who was beheaded by Herod.
He was somewhat of a drifter - moving from town to town and practiced what is known today as flim-flam - performing spurious miracles that managed to convince only 12 people - and alluding to, but never admitting, divine godship. He had a knack for getting punched and beaten but always managed to escape at the last moments. His luck finally ran out after messing with the Sanhedrin.
But all was not lost as Jesus had two very important friends - the first being a J.Aramithea who pleaded with Pilate for the body of Jesus just moments after losing consciousness - and a Nicodemus who arrives shortly after moving Jesus to a tomb in a garden and administers a peculiar mix of myrhh and aloe - a salve that stops mortal bleeding. But thats not the only thing that was peculiar. Approximately 100 pounds was used and he did it during the night of the Sabbath when no work is to be done. John 19:39. In Jewish law, the only work that was permissible on the sabbath is saving a person's life and is recorded as "pikuach nefesh".
Jesus' actual survival of crucifixion - unheard of in 1st century Rome - became the basis for the legend celebrated on Easter and influenced a great deal of people - one in particular named Paul of Tarsus who may have actually met Jesus in person on the road to Damascus - complete with holes in both hands and feet and a large gaping scar under his ribs.
While Jesus is often portrayed as a nice guy (I'm pretty sure he was), his efforts fell far too short for any global mission of divine proportions. For one, he didn't even mention the concept of Original Sin - an odd predicament if he were truly here to save everyone from it. And aside from his intentions of growing his congregation, his proselytizing parables only managed to cover a meager 150 sq. miles during his debut - excluding a huge portion of the world that would have to wait approximately 1,500 years to hear it - mostly by force.
That ^^^^.
Noice- as we Aussies say. :-D
Who cares if a man named Jesus existed? The Jesus who turned water into wine and rose from the dead certainly did not.
I hear he turned wine into water on Skidrow and they threw rotten fish heads at him." Get out of it, you! Go on, get!" they said.
jesus..oh, yeah...the man that cursed the fig tree, coz it cannot produce fruit for him?? that asshole??...nope, i'm not buying it
who cares if its historical or made up??....i don't....what i know is the path for atheism is the bible.
don't just read it....read it with rational thinking....
Sushi and old man. Im glad you missed me. I do have other things to tend to in my life, so forgive me for allowing you to think I don’t have other important things to deal with. But at last! I am here and ready to present a rebuttal to your uneducated view of the Messiah. Hmm where should I start? So many easy cherries to pick from.
@IA
And yet you didn't pick one. Our cherries remain intact.
Maybe jesus was a bankrupt tennis instructor.
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/esoteric-breast-massage
Well I posted something but I see this site still needs a lot of work. I will not repeat my diatribe on the basis of time constraints. Go watch this video and tell me what you think. Only thing I suggest is that you stop listening to your pseudo scholars and prophets and look for someone who is an actual expert in the field.
https://youtu.be/u9CC7qNZkOE
@Inexorable
Strange that no one else has trouble posting to the site. Tell you what, I'll wait for your diatribe. I'm happy to accept a YouTube video to SUPPORT an argument, but I'm not prepared to accept one INSTEAD of an argument.
Inex, back atcha!
https://youtu.be/Cniu8Wk1au0
@ Inex.
You really are an idiot if you think posting a third hand video featuring a discredited wannabe like Ehrlman has any historical value.
Hope you read this, all you have done is proved that you are a windbag, and someone who has no idea of the historical method and results of the last 50 years research. Or maybe you have which is why you are resorting to these drive by tactics in the vain hope that you can escape your own palpable and obvious doubts unscathed.
@Old Man
Is that what his video was? ROFL! I didn't even look- just dismissed him posting it as intellectually lazy and dishonest. Too funny!
And didn't he tell Cyber his video was from a True Intellectual® or something?
@ Sushi,
Yep he did and thank you for your spirited defence of my posts. I appreciate that!
Old Man
There is not one shred, jot or iota of contemporary evidence for a "jesus" figure as described in the synoptic gospels or "John" and which is worshipped today.
No shred, jot or iota huh? Lol. Go watch the video old man and maybe you’ll learn not to open your mouth so fast about things that you obviously know nothing about.
@Inexorable
You're new to this, aren't you? It's obvious by the fact that you've already stated your intention to cherry pick. And what a poor cherry picker you are, my friend! Old Man said a lot more than that in the post you've cherry picked. Here's his post, in its entirety:
' "Was Jesus a real Historical figure or just a made up one?"
There is not one shred, jot or iota of contemporary evidence for a "jesus" figure as described in the synoptic gospels or "John" and which is worshipped today.
Whether an actual Jesus/yeshua figure existed that had an affect on the local populace in approx 28CE - 35CE existed is possible but totally without contemporary credible evidence.
There were a plethora of 1st century rabbis ( with contemporary records) preaching apocalyptic messages and performing sorcery (miracles) some gaining large followings which serves to confuse the issue.
We do know that all the so called evidence by the way of third hand, edited, translated, re-edited, culled and consolidated texts purporting to be eye witness accounts did not appear until at least 150 CE - 300 CE and were then subject to further editing and forced culls to suit the narrative of the God Emperor, and later political needs, right up until the present day.
We also have many early (2nd CE) christian writings that do not mention a Jesus or the alleged miracles, many more records of christian writings that insist that jesus was not divine ( the Arian "heresy" Ebionites and more), and records of other gospels culled by the Roman church on pain of death in 492CE.
So the question remaining is: Which jesus are you referring to in your OP?'
And your response was "Watch the video", translation: watch somebody else's work because I can't formulate coherent arguments myself, all I know how to do is insult. I can strawman and ad hom till the cows come home, but I'm fucking useless for anything else.
Once again, I'll wait for your diatribe - though I'd much prefer evidenced claims, if you can manage it. If you can find the time, with your busy schedule and all. I'm happy to wait. I've waited over 12 hours already- 12 more won't hurt me.
@ Inex
Yep, still not one Jot Iota or particle of contemporary evidence. Please prove me wrong. Otherwise crawl back under that soundproof rock you live in subterranean splendour, ignoring all the major findings and research of the last 100 years. Mate, if you were an appliance you would be returned for a refund.
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