What better explains reality: atheism or theism?

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arakish's picture
@ ALL Dawgs

@ ALL Dawgs

Hell, I'll tell ya mine too. I intentionally bred a Pure Bred Siberian Husky male with a Pure Bred Alaska Malamute. Both were AKC registered. Since I wanted them intentionally mixed, I had to pay extra $$$. I also stipulated that I get "pick of the litter." Once born, I actually chose the smallest one because he was the only pup with blue eyes. As he grew up, he still looked like a Siberian Husky, but also looked a lot like a grey wolf. Additionally, his eyes turned such a pale blue, they looked white. My wife named him "Gandalf the Grey" after the character in JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Once full grown, Gandalf weighed a whopping 64 to 72 kilograms (about 140 to 160 pounds). And when I stood him up on his hind legs, he stood a whopping 178 centimeters (70 inches) tall. He was so damned big, my daughters could literally ride him like a horse, until they got too tall.

The greatest thing was I could take him to the store, leave him in the car with the windows wide open, tell him to "Stay!" and he would still be in the car when I returned. The other thing was that the parking lot would be cleared about three to four spaces away from my car. Of course, could not blame the people, they basically saw a huge grey wolf, which they might have thought was a dire wolf, with white eyes. Spooky.

The best thing about him was how protective he was over me wife and daughters. If you were a man and came near me wife and/or daughters, Gandalf would get between you and them and a low deep-throated growl to warn you away. If I was there, and you were a man, Gandalf would come over and give you a thorough sniff-down. However, once he learned you were a friend, you were OK. If he did not know you and you were a man and you came at me wife and/or daughters, even without intention of causing harm, he would literally eat you alive if you did not heed his warning. This did happen once, but I won the court case.

If you were a child, no matter whose, Gandalf watch and protect that child, especially a toddler, as if he were that child's guardian. The most amazing I had ever seen. I had never seen a dog so protective of my family, yet also anyone's young child or toddler.

Gandalf was NEVER trained to be as he was. My best hypothesis was that with all the pure love we showed him, he simply reciprocated in his own way.

Another incident. When we went to see Jurassic Park at the theatre one night, a burglar broke into our house. Gandalf just sat there waiting for the burglar to get all the way into the house, then attacked. The burglar managed to get away by going back out the window. Gandalf still remained in the house. And he was still sitting there at the window waiting for him to come back. Of course, the police investigated and caught the guy sometime later. Lo and behold, that dumb ass burglar sued me for the damages Gandalf caused. Gandalf did tear up one his arms fairly badly. Anyway, all needed was the police testimony. They said the evidence showed the burglar had come completely into the house before Gandalf attacked. And Gandalf ceased attacking as soon as the burglar exited the window. I'll let y'all figure out who the judge sided with.

Gandalf was the most wonderful dog I ever owned. When I mention me wife and daughters, I should have been including Gandalf.

Thus, I can say with complete confidence that no dog, or and dog-like animal is actually evil. Do you ever see a dog hunt and kill (unless it is dog fighting trained) another animal just for the sport of killing it? Only man does this. Thus, it is man who can be evil. Whenever I have gone hunting, except for bear, I ALWAYS used a bow. Whatever I killed, I ate. I did not leave it to rot for sport of killing it. I hunted for the challenge and for a change of meat that you cannot purchase in a grocery store. Ever had the brisket of an elk, marinated with A-1 sauce and Jack Daniels Hickory BBQ sauce, then smoked in a smoker with mesquite? Talk about heaven...

rmfr

Edit: fixed a typo

Valiya's picture
@David Killen

@David Killen

You said: If you apply the "evil" label to anything, you are not understanding what is going on and resorting to ignorance.

If acts of apparent goodness is labelled as morality, why shouldn't acts of apparent cruelty labelled as evil? The thing is dogs are just behaving their natural self, not making conscious decisions between right and wrong. We like to interpret it as loyalty and stuff like that, giving it a human nature.

David Killens's picture
@ ROYISM

@ ROYISM

"If acts of apparent goodness is labelled as morality, why shouldn't acts of apparent cruelty labelled as evil? "

If they are acts of cruelty, then they are "acts of cruelty" and do not require being re-labelled with something that carries a LOT of baggage. The word "evil" does carry a lot of baggage.

And the very same logic applies to the first part of the sentence, acts of goodness are not morality, they are just acts of goodness. You are presupposing the motive. For example, I know of a wealthy man who donates to charity, not for the "goodness" but because he actually makes more money back from the tax break.

Sheldon's picture
"The thing is dogs are just

"The thing is dogs are just behaving their natural self, not making conscious decisions between right and wrong."

Nonsense, an animals ability to recognise moral behaviours increases with certain evolved traits, like brain size and being societal. Dogs have morals, as do all social animals, you just don't understand what morality means.

morality
noun
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.

Dogs can distinguish between behaviours that other dogs comprehend as right or wrong, hence they possess the ability to be moral, BY DEFINITION.

Sapporo's picture
ROYISM: My argument is that

ROYISM: My argument is that without answering these existential questions, values and morality are meaningless. For example, if I believe that the reason for my existence is to serve humanity, then I will spend my time feeding the hungry and helping the poor. Why do you indulge in any act of charity, if you think the reason why you exist doesn’t matter at all?

"What should I do with my life?" is not the same as "Why do I exist?"

The difference between asking "Why do I exist?" and "Why does God exist?" is that I know I exist, as far as it is meaningful to say I know anything.

In your case, following your logic, why would you engage in any act of charity if the reason why God exists doesn't matter at all?

I have no reason to think that every thing has a "Why?" - I can only say that about things that exist within the laws of nature.

Valiya's picture
@ Sapporo

@ Sapporo

"What should I do with my life?" is not the same as "Why do I exist?"

It is the same. What do you do with a knife? Cutting. Why was it created (or brought into existence)? To cut objects. The 2 questions are the same.

You said: The difference between asking "Why do I exist?" and "Why does God exist?" is that I know I exist, as far as it is meaningful to say I know anything.

The topic of this thread is not whether god exists or not? It’s weather god belief offers any explanation of reality. And it offers an explanation of the why of reality.

You said: In your case, following your logic, why would you engage in any act of charity if the reason why God exists doesn't matter at all?

I don’t indulge in goodness because I claim to know the reason why god exists, rather because I know why I exist (or the purpose why god created me).

You said: I have no reason to think that every thing has a "Why?" - I can only say that about things that exist within the laws of nature.

If our existence has no purpose, then why are you even struggling to convince me with your worldview. If there is no purpose to be met, how can anything be right or wrong. If the purpose of a doctor is not to save a life, then does it really matter what treatment he offers?

Sheldon's picture
"It is the same. What do you

"It is the same. What do you do with a knife? Cutting. Why was it created (or brought into existence)? To cut objects. The 2 questions are the same."

What a particularly asinine analogy, humans are not knives. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

"If our existence has no purpose, then why are you even struggling to convince me with your worldview. "

No one is claiming it has no purpose, they are pointing out there is no evidence that it has any purpose beyond what we a s individuals give it, and you have failed to even pretend you can demonstrate any.

"If there is no purpose to be met, how can anything be right or wrong."

Two separate questions, the one has nothing to do with the other. Demonstrate objective evidence for a purpose, or else your question is specious. The result of there being no purpose doesn't validate your claim it has purpose. You're simply wishing life was as you want to believe it is.

Something is right or wrong from a human perspective because we have evolved the ability to recognise behaviours that we think are right or wrong, our ability to reason and the fact we are societal animals who can empathise. Now try and take this in please, and not regurgitate your asinine cannibal analogy. Claiming your ideas on morality are objective because you have decided to believe without any evidence they are from a deity is meaningless, what's more it is subjective. It can be morally assessed on it;s own merits. Hence revering a 'prophet' that raped nine year old girls has no claim to moral ascendancy for anyone who thinks such behaviours are immoral.

Sheldon's picture
I can never be sure if you're

I can never be sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, but saying atheism "isn't good enough to explain reality" is like saying not collecting stamps isn't good enough to explain reality. As David explained to you patiently, atheism has no burden of proof as it makes no claims. Reality can be examined only through objective empirical evidence, and cold hard reason.

"My argument is that without answering these existential questions, values and morality are meaningless."

Except it's not an argument, it's just a subjective belief you hold, and tediously repeat endlessly like some sort of mantra. As if we must accept it because you claim it is cogent.

"For example, if I believe that the reason for my existence is to serve humanity, then I will spend my time feeding the hungry and helping the poor. "

Well I suppose it's a better version of the Islamic superstition than ISIS, but it's not charitable or altruistic, as that involves a free choice made without the coercion of an angry sadistic deity promising heaven or threatening hell.

"Why do you indulge in any act of charity, if you think the reason why you exist doesn’t matter at all?"

Because it is demonstrably better to live in a world where we do all we can to reduce suffering. It matters to me that other humans are suffering, and other sentient beings as well but to a lesser extent. If I could stop a child from being raped or from suffering an agonising death from cancer I wouldn't hesitate, if the superstition you espouse is true then your deity doesn't even care. Though this is hardly a surprise since its prophet was a paedophile. Thus your sententious lectures on morality are what is meaningless to any open minded objective person.

Cognostic's picture
@ "SO you agree that atheism

@ "SO you agree that atheism is not good enough to explain reality."
Wow! How did you ever survive in this world? Atheism says nothing at all about life. Asking this question is like asking how does a dictionary describe the smell of a hamburger.

Atheism (The set of all human beings that LACK a belief in God or gods.) Atheism says nothing what so ever about the world around us, belief systems, science, evolution or anything else. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in Gods. NOTHING MORE.

Please share your answer to these existential questions. I want you to tell me WHY, so I can call you a frigging idiot. Morality is not meaningless. It has helped the human species survive and it has evolved with us to help us survive. As the human brain became more and more complex, so did our morality. Values and morality are man made. The history of the human species clearly demonstrates this to us.
That's why your moronic view of ascribing a supernatural cause to morality can differ from mine and yet neither one of us has done serious time in a prison cell. Your morality has been shaped by the culture around you and nothing else.

A Theist is incapable of moral actions. If morality is dictated by a God figure, it is not moral. A mandate to be moral can not by definition be moral. If your mother tells you that she will give you five dollars for being kind to a neighbor kid, and then you are kind to that kid, have you acted morally? NO! You are acting out of greed to get the $5. If your mother tells you to be nice to the neighbor kid or you will get a beating, and then you are nice to the neighbor kid, are you acting moral? NO! You are merely attempting to avoid punishment. Again acting our of self interest. Dictated morality can not be moral. Acting moral in self interest, to go to Heaven or avoid Hell, can not be moral. Morality comes from an internal locus of control and not from external mandates and rewards. There is nothing in theology that makes it moral. NOTHING.

JimMagditch's picture
Cognostic, what proof is

Cognostic, what proof is there that morality comes from an internal locus of control? Would you agree that morality can be either good or not good? Each of us (human kind) has a conscience where we can understand right from wrong; good from evil. So where does the conscience come from?

More good news for you to consider; since every law springs from a system of values and beliefs, every law is an instance of regulating morality. Law teaches the citizens what is right and good, and punishes those who cannot or will not learn that lesson. Laws are based squarely on morality, and morality is principally founded on right and wrong. Right is a virtue - both public and private.

Good law helps curb human excess, while morality helps curb the law. The real question then is, whose morality shapes the law?

David Killens's picture
@ JimM

@ JimM

"So where does the conscience come from?"

Humans are a social species and require each others to survive. Thus our interactions and decisions are based on the well-being of the group. And it also extends to the individual. For myself, it boils down to a simple question "would I like it if it was done to me?" Conscience is not imparted from a deity, it comes down to making decisions by the individual.

I gave a previous example where I am opposed to murder. But if I saw a maniac going after one (or more) of my loved one(s), and if I had a gun in my hand, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. This is a good example of a changing and flexible morality decided on by the individual, and the conditions of the moment.

"The real question then is, whose morality shapes the law?"

That morality definitely does not come from the bible where practices such as genocide, slavery, and murder were condoned by a deity. For example, very few of the Ten Commandments ever made it into law, because common sense prevailed.

The common morality of the community AT THAT TIME shapes the law. And as social conditions change, the law changes. The best example is the abolition of slavery.

Morality can never be a fixed set of rules dictated by some ancient book.

arakish's picture
I am going to let Cognostic

I am going to let Cognostic spank you for that bullshit, but I did want you to know my response to one thing you wrote.

"The real question then is, whose morality shapes the law?" I am damned glad it ain't your morality, of those like you, because you ain't got any morality.

rmfr

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JimM

@ JimM

Law is not based on "right and good" a cursory study will show you the law is a constant struggle between the forces of reaction and privilege vs the forces of progression.

Societal expectation of the system shapes the law in Western democracy.

Religion shapes the law, without discourse, in Islamic countries. They share the same laws and 'morality' as the nominally christian democracies. Christian law would result in the same excesses as shown by Daesh, they have a common foundation. Hardly "good" or "moral" laws as we would expect in a modern pluralist society.

Sheldon's picture
"My argument is that without

"My argument is that without answering these existential questions, values and morality are meaningless. "

Then your morality is meaningless, as no religion has objective answers for existential questions.

Atheist morals are no more subjective that theistic morals, the difference is that theists pretend they know what a deity wants, and can't say how they 'know' that 'what it wants' is moral.

xenoview's picture
Royism

Royism

I believe in zero gods. God has to exist before you can reject it.

We exist because our parents had sex.

All you theist have is the God of the gaps. Science has been filling the gaps.

Valiya's picture
@xenoview

@xenoview

You got the meaning of why wrong? We are talkIng not about cause, we are talking about purpose. What’s the purpose of your existence. That’s the question

Sheldon's picture
What objective evidence can

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that there IS any purpose for life? Beyond the purpose we invest in it day to day of course. Until you can demonstrate such evidence your question is meaningless, like asking WHY dragons have scales.

Valiya's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that there IS any purpose for life? Beyond the purpose we invest in it day to day of course. Until you can demonstrate such evidence your question is meaningless, like asking WHY dragons have scales.

If there is no purpose for life, then the first thing you should do is stop trying to preach morality... because without purpose in life how can you attach any value to any deed? Or give me your standard for morality?

CyberLN's picture
Define ‘value’

Define ‘value’
Define ‘purpose’
Define ‘morality’

Sheldon's picture
"If there is no purpose for

"If there is no purpose for life,"

I am not interested in your red herring about morality as it has no relevance, and I never mentioned it. So again I ask what objective evidence can you demonstrate that there is any reason for human existence beyond what we as individuals invest our lives with from day to day? Do you think we won't notice your evasion?

Valiya's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon

I am not interested in your red herring about morality as it has no relevance, and I never mentioned it.

Morality is relevant because my contention is that theism answers why questions, and that’s the question that gives you morality.

So again I ask what objective evidence can you demonstrate that there is any reason for human existence you said: beyond what we as individuals invest our lives with from day to day? Do you think we won't notice your evasion?

Not evading. You are mixing up things here. By that question, you are drifting into the question of god’s existence. But the subject here is not about proofs for existence of entities, rather about the need for these entities. In other words - what explains reality better, theism or atheism?

Sheldon's picture
Morality is not relevant to

Morality is not relevant to my question, which was what objective evidence can you demonstrate that human existence has an ultimate purpose or reason? your subjective beliefs about morality are moot, as it either is or is not true that human existence has an ultimate purpose, and so far you can demonstrate nothing to support your belief.

Atheism and the existence of a deity are just two more red herrings alongside morality that you think you can muddy the water with. No one is fooled, answer the question or admit you have no justification of asking why we exist. Anymore than you would for asking why mermaids are shy, and then insisting atheism can't answer.

David Killens's picture
@ ROYISM

@ ROYISM

"Morality is relevant because my contention is that theism answers why questions, and that’s the question that gives you morality."

I agree that theism offers answers concerning morality. The problem is that theism does not guarantee morality, just answers ( and they can be incorrect). For example, slavery, murder and genocide can be supported by theism.

Cognostic's picture
Please tell us all the

Please tell us all the purpose of our existence. You keep spouting this crap and so far have said nothing at all. I would love to hear your version of the purpose of my existence so I can tell you to "Go Fuck Off." In fact, that is the purpose of my existence at this moment. Please tell us all why we are here so we can have a good laugh.

xenoview's picture
Royism

Royism

I did my purpose as a human, I procreated, have four grown children and one grandchild.

Now my purpose in life is to enjoy what I have left with my girlfriend.

Cognostic's picture
How can a person be so dense?

How can a person be so dense? IF YOU THINK THERE IS A "WHY" FOR MY EXISTENCE, PLEASE SHARE IT, SO I CAN TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD. I make my own "why" - NOT YOU.

Sheldon's picture
Royism will never answer, he

Royism will never answer, he;ll go one and on making the subjective claim that objective morality is possible through his fictional deity, and insisting no morality is possible without his superstitious beliefs, but he will never demonstrate evidence for any of his claims, because he has none.

I have asked him innumerable times how he knows that his deity is moral, either he able to assess what is moral or he is not. If he is then he demonstrably doesn't need a deity to dictate morality to him, if he is not then divine diktat is worthless as he has no way of knowing if it is or is not moral.

Another question he ignores, and just rants on.

arakish's picture
Atheism doesn't explain

Atheism doesn't explain anything.

No it does not. Atheism is ONLY a "lack of belief in any gods." Why cannot you dumb ass Religious Absolutists get this in your tiny little minds? ROYISM, this has been said to you many, many times, even by me, by many, many others at these boards. If you want to continue being so dense and retarded, go elsewhere.

It just rejects God.

See above.

rmfr

Edit:

Theism attempts to explain the 'Why' of things. As in why do we exist.

Which it does a most miserable job by plagiarizing myths, legends, and faerie tales far, FAR! older than the Bible.

While science attempts to explain the how of things, as in how things exist.

And does a near perfect job. Far superior than anything ANY religion is capable of.

2nd Edit: fixed strong tag, what is it about strong tags I am always breaking them? Gads, I am a moron.

Sheldon's picture
Atgeism can't reject the very

Atheism can't reject the very thing it doesn't believe is real. That's a particularly stupid theistic cliche.

Theism has no explanatory powers at all. That is axiomatic, or the evidence would have been demonstrated in the thousands of years theists have had to come up with anything approaching objective evidence, or arguments more compelling than fallacious first cause arguments, or puerile archaic myths about flying horses, and being alive after you die with 72 virgins.

"science attempts to explain the how of things, as in how things exist."

That's so poorly written I'm guessing it's another theistic cliche you've plagiarised.

Science studies and tries to understand the natural physical world and universe. We know those things exists as an objective fact.

You have yet demonstrate a shred of evidence that there is an over arching purpose or reason for their existence. Indeed each time you're asked you obfuscate dishonestly, with irrelevant verbiage making subjective claims about what you think a purposeless universe means for things like human morality.

The fact you have to do this just shows clearly that you can demonstrate nothing approaching objective evidence for your claim human existence has an ultimate purpose.

arakish's picture
Wednesday 19 September 2018 @

Wednesday 19 September 2018 @ 0924hrs

royism: "What’s the purpose of your existence? That’s the question."

There is no purpose. The only purpose of life is life. What you make of it is what you make of it.

Otherwise, any answer you offer is going to be nothing more than beguiling dialectical semantics and lies.

rmfr

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