I was wondering recently where angels came from. Thinking about it, they would have had to be created by god. So in turn, as was the devil. So I started looking into it and the only answer I got was some bogus statement about free will. I mean what kind of god says he love you but will let you willingly make the choices that lead to eternal damnation?
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It's the usual disclaimer man always includes in contractual agreements when circumstances beyond his control prevent him from holding up his part of the bargain.
In this case, god (men stating that god speaks through them) cannot be held responsible for a person choosing not to worship him. By that "fee will" disclaimer, god gets out of giving evidence of his power over man's actions and instead assigns that power to man himself as a test to give evidence of his faith to do god's will. You see, the conjurers of god were freaking brilliant.
Let's listen in, shall we...
Man claiming himself to be the voice of god:
"No, no, no; god can easily control your actions but that proves nothing of your love for him. He has decided to make you prove your love. You must act accordingly with the power of free will he's empowered you with to guide yourself by his will. Only then will he measure your worth." - Or, some such nonsense.
One of my coworkers tried to lay the notion of free will on me one day when we were in a discussion of damnation. I simply told him that it didn't fly in the face of a supposed omniscient, omnipotent force of will to make that claim. When I delve into the deaths of innocent children from natural calamities or other causes he goes vacuous. He shuts down completely when I bring up birth defects, starvation and other causes unrelated to man's evil he perpetrates upon himself (read: free will choice to be evil).
Stupid, stupid theists. One day I'll peer down from heaven and see them wise up.
Poor god. love can only exist through free will, and atheist are those who choose to exercise their will completely free of god. logic goes, then, that atheist are the only people who can truly love god.
God has to be sitting by the phone, waiting for atheist to call.
Now that is funny!
Good one! :D
Pitar, All the defects in the world are a result of sin, we can see the outside causes of it, but we cannot see the souls defects but they are the same. We were all born with the sin defect already in us. We live in a dead and dying world because of it, this is the place where we make the decision on where we will live for all eternity and it sounds like you do believe in a heaven?
Prove it.
"We were all born with the sin defect already in us. We live in a dead and dying world because of it"
Wow. What horrible, cruel monster would do something like that to his own creations?
And, didn't Jesus die for our sins? If we are still born with that "defect", then why did god torture and kill his son?
The Pragmatic - "If we are still born with that "defect", then why did god torture and kill his son?"
You mean: "then why did god torture and kill himself?"
For love.
God created us perfect when He made humans, disobedience caused the sin defect in our soul (emotions, mind and will), the sin instantly killed our life giving spirit which gave our body life so now these physical bodies die and every seed bears the same seed, they were corrupted and so their children would be also. This is why we had no hope without Jesus dying for us, He did nothing wrong but He took the sin and His death represented what sin will do to a soul, sin grows, look around at the world today, people are getting worse. Sin made us zombies, literally walking dead that eat death. We would have been separated from God forever with the same fate as satan and his angels. I am so thankful that Jesus took the debt and paid it in full, and now because I asked Him to forgive me, He forgave me and gave me a new Spirit and His Spirit helps me to grow more like Jesus every day, Christians are at different ages of growth. I know you can't understand this until you get saved from death yourself because you don't have a spirit anymore, you are separated from God and cannot understand. But this is why it is so real and so many love Jesus with all their hearts! I have a new spirit and His Spirit talks to mine and I know God. I know Him and He is wonderful and I want you to know him too. But like I said before, it is a miracle and God has to draw you. He won't until you begin to want something different until down deep you know something is wrong with you.
Ronda, Ronda, Ronda...when, oh when, will you offer anything substantive to back up your wild accusations?
You should consider actually DEBATING in this debate forum instead of just preaching or risk getting reported and banned. You are not offering anything, ANYthing other than a word salad. Word salads just don't cut it in a debate forum. Your preaching is completely selfish.
Your last sentence in this post is particularly obnoxious. How dare you for your holier-than-thou rhetoric!
"God created us perfect" How could "perfect" humans disobey him?
@ atheistpasta
Check the date on the posts that you are replying to, 2015.
"why would god create the devil?"
The answer is simple, HE DIDN'T.
But enough with truths and lets get down to the theology.
The devil existence in the christian theology is one of the most evident reasons why the christian god is evil.
Take the Adam and Eve story for example.
Not only this incompetent god goes to tell his children to not eat from a tree, tempting them to do just that.
The most incompetent father ever in existence.
But after seeing that they were good children and they really did not eat from the tree, he decided to intervene and let a snake loose in the small garden.
What kind of father lets a snake loose in the garden where his children are playing?
To make it worse he puts his children naked so they got nothing to protect themselves.
Apart from that he wasn't happy with just having a snake but he also gave the snake the ability to speak and be smarter then his own children.
I still do not really understand why he gave more intelligence to a snake but it gets worse.
He allows the snake to tempt eve and lie about god and does NOTHING, NOTHING.
He lets his children be deceived because obedience is more important then truth and reason.
He purposely made his children be deceived and then punished them for it.
This kind of evil creature is even worse then the dam snake.
That is why SANE people not only do not believe in the existence of such a being but ARE GLAD that he doesn't.
Hi Jeff,
I am wondering if you even believe there is a devil? The reason that God told His children not to eat from the tree was because He gave them ONE thing to do to show Him that they were also invested in their relationship. If you are married, I know you have at least one rule in your marriage that you have asked your wife not to do if she loves you. This doesn't mean that you are tempting her to do that one thing, is it? I would not think you were an incompetent husband if you asked your wife to be faithful to you. So why is God incompetent for asking one thing of His children? The world was perfect before sin came into the garden, there were no "bad" snakes. Everything was good, read Genesis again. All God made was good. Sin is what made it all bad, the devil who was much older entered into the serpent in the garden and lied to them through it and we have only seen the serpent after God cursed it not before so it may have looked different than what we think because God said it would crawl on its belly, so it had legs once. But besides that they still had the choice to say, " "yes or "no" If you told your child not to do drugs because he could get sick or die but his friends told him to do it and he did and got sick or died, would this be your fault? I also believe they had the glory of God around them , but when they sinned the glory left them and they saw they were naked and tried to cover themselves with fig leaves. (Sin causes shame and separation from God) God didn't do nothing nothing like you stated because He told them The Truth. He told them if they ate from it they would DIE and at the moment of disobeying the one thing He asked them not to do their life giving spirits inside of them died. Their eternal soul (emotions, will and desires--basically their own unique personality) got the same tweaked way of seeing things as the devil does and with no life-giving spirit inside of them their bodies would eventually die. Jeff, Jesus is our only hope! He came and died for their sin and our sins, only forgiveness can save us from the sin within us and when we ask Him to forgive us, He does! instantly. He gives us His life-giving Spirit that gives us life! He gives us His Word that teaches our tweaked soul how to become healed and when we die we get a brand new immortal body! Salvation is a miracle and only God can draw you to Him and I will pray He does because I know He loves you. I believe that God doesn't want you to be deceived and then punished for it when you die.
"I am wondering if you even believe there is a devil?"
lol, no i do not believe in the christian devil, I thought i was clear on that part lol.
"The reason that God told His children not to eat from the tree was because He gave them ONE thing to do to show Him that they were also invested in their relationship."
What relationship?, they never even had a choice to be in a relationship. And according to the story, if it wasn't for the apple we would still have no choice.
"If you are married"
I am not married but if I was, I would not insult my wife by treating her like a child, like god did in the Adam and Eve story.
"This doesn't mean that you are tempting her to do that one thing, is it? "
All parents know that if you tell your children not to do something without giving a good explanation or punishment threat, the probability is that you instigated their curiosity even more.
There is a difference between reasoning with your wife and tell children what they should not do without explanation like god did.
(no, telling them they would die is not an explanation, but instigating fear)
"So why is God incompetent for asking one thing of His children?"
Every parent knows that children need to learn and sometimes by doing mistakes, that is why parents do their best to explain the world to their children and not just give orders and conditions like god did in the story.
He is the most incompetent parent ever imagined just for that.
"The world was perfect before sin came into the garden, there were no "bad" snakes."
Who let the snake in the garden?
"All God made was good."
Do not dare say that the snake was not created by god now?
God created a perfect garden so that HE could screw it up, I thought that was clear from my first post.
"If you told your child not to do drugs because he could get sick or die but his friends told him to do it and he did and got sick or died, would this be your fault?"
No, but I am not omniscient and omnipotent.
Why would god put a poisonous tree right next to his children?
Apart that god let the snake in the garden and you would not let his friend lie to your kid but that is not what god did.
God not only knew about the snake and the lies but he actually created that situation so he could punish his kids.
Ether that or he is not omniscient, the choice is yours.
You folks do realize there is no Devil, God, Jesus, Virgin Mothers, Angels, imps, ghost, Faries, goblins, Heaven, Hell. There never was a tree, or a snake, it's all just a bunch of made up garbage. Arguing about the personality or behaviour of non existent beings seems a tad odd.
Actually, Andrew, it isn't odd at all. There are many, many folks who visit these sites who are on the fence, so to speak. When they have the opportunity to read these debates, and see reason & logic in action vs. myth and belief in action, they can learn. It can feed the decision-making process. Folks get to find out they are not alone, their doubts are reasonable. They can see that many others have been able to 'come out' and not fall off the planet. They can exercise their brains with debate. They can firm up their thoughts. They can do so many things that are so very helpful.
Andrew, like CyberLN explained, one of the ways how to demolish theistic arguments is to show them that they are fighting for evil.
It just takes basic common sens to get to that conclusion.
A guy who engineers a way to punish his kids so harshly cannot be considered a good father.
Thus theists are forced to face reality, and at least consider that the bible contains lies.
Hell if I know, none of this religious stuff makes all that much sense to me, and my ten year-old could come up with a more consistent theology than most major world religions have. So, meh...
The god who didn't want all this to happen, made all this to happen with foreknowledge, and yet it is everybodies fault but his...
No matter how hard I try, I just don't have a good enough imagination to pretend that this crap makes any sense to me.
It's the cosmic bet: God bet the devil the universe that more humans would believe right? The non-believers actually represent him losing that bet. It's why we upset theists so much isn't it? No... I don't get it either. :)
Why did god create anything?
Turns out, he wanted something to love him. I think it's laid out somewhere in the bible. Theres a catch though; god struggles with rejection. Imagine: you create everything, and someone has the gall not to think you are awesome.
Huh! The nerve.
HI Mitch,
I don't know if you are a father or not, but I am a mother and I had children. I love them and I did want them to love me. My son made the choice to do drugs. He didn't listen to me and because of his choices our relationship has been messed up. This breaks my heart but I don't feel rejected, I feel pain. I have never stopped loving him, I pray daily that he will come back to his senses. He doesn't have to think I am awesome but I want him safe. I am safe and well but my heart hurts for the choices he is making and it hurts to see him ruining his life. God knows what is best for us, He made us so He knows how we work but because the sin virus inside of us tweaked our souls like it did the devils and it gets worse in time not better, we need God's help and He is more than willing because He loves us. But a relationship takes two and God did His part. He created the first humans and the whole world for them, He gave them a choice because He didn't want robots, He paid the price for their choice and our choices (because we have the same sin virus because we came from them) So now because of God we have another choice as individuals to make that one choice to accept the payment of Jesus dying for every one of our specific sins and coming back into fellowship with Him which brings joy and peace right now and then be resurrected when we physically die with the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead. God IS awesome!
But why would he create the devil? I mean, why set yourself up for failure. If you know that lucifer would eventually try to dethrone you why even go through the motions. it really seems like if God really is an all loving God, then why would he knowingly set us up to fail?
I appreciate your taking the time to articulate your rationale, Ronda. Here's what it seems you're saying, to me: you're a loving parent, who grieves the absence of her son, and fears for his safety.
Additionally, though, you're resentful of your son's actions: he used drugs, when you were so intent on making the perfect life experience for him. The effort must have been - and possibly still is - exhausting, but it sounds like you haven't given up. It also seems like you're waiting for your son to learn to love in the same way you have - hopefully sooner, but you'd settle for someday as well. To learn to love you, as you think all good parents should be loved.
Does this sound accurate?
Hi Mitch, I love my son without condition and this is how I can understand to a small degree how much God loves me. I will never stop loving my son it won't matter what he does, the love I have for him will never change, but he is not enjoying the blessings he could have if we had a relationship. I am not resentful of him because he had the choice to do drugs or not, I told him the results and he is old enough to make that decision. I would have loved to give him a good life, yes! but he chose otherwise and this is another aspect of God I can understand to some degree. I also would not want my son to be a robot and programmed to tell me "Mom, you are right drugs are bad. I love you, Mom" This would not bring joy because I would know it was not for real, love is a choice, but having him care more about our relationship than drugs would show me that He loves me from his heart. I truly believe this is how God is, He tells us things will hurt us and even if we do them, He still loves us unconditionally, but the relationship is messed up because blessings come with a condition. I have a golden retriever and he is welcome in my house but I do have some rules for him before he can come in. I believe God's rule is that sin cannot be in His house. I love God by choice and want a relationship with Him, I also realize that sin hurts me too. He is a good Father. And I am praying for my son every single day, I know God has unlimited resources and loves him too.
Thank you for sharing your experience with me, Ronda.
There's no way for me to know beyond doubt what a god would think, or love. However, it is clear to me that you do deeply love your son, and love between people is something I have faith in. I think in that way, we are alike. Do you agree?
Thank you for seeing that I do care, and the love we have for others comes from Him, but Mitch there is a way you can personally know what God thinks. When you believe that Jesus died for you too and The Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead. God will forgive you and you receive a new spirit (that died from Adam's choice to disobey God) Then God's own Spirit comes into you and you receive His mind because His Spirit is God and He tells you what He is like and He shows you things in His Word that are amazing! People can't understand it without His Spirit but as you read His Word, your spirit grows. Before I was saved I didn't understand either so I know this is difficult to understand but once you have His Spirit, a light literally comes on in the inside! Real joy that you cant' explain to anyone. You feel so free and know God is real. It is amazing but I can't give anyone my relationship, you have to experience it for yourself. But when you do, you will automatically want others to know they can be saved too. You will see everything differently and life is full of hope. God is so real!!! I am not lying to you. Why would I lie about this? If you get a chance read the book of John and just ask God to show you yourself if you can actually know what HE thinks...just ask Him, OK? Don't just take my word for it, take His.
Your word is the one I'm interested in hearing, Ronda. You feel joy, hope, and relief, when you think of god - and I think this is what 'being saved' means to you. Did you always believe in god?
Hi Sykillings,
You are right that God created all angels including the devil but when He created them they were perfect but with the ability to make choices. Lucifer was the devil's name before sin was found in him and he was an archangel. God had given him more power and beauty than all the rest of the angels and he was a musician in heaven but he became proud and forgot he had been created (this is what sin does to a person) and decided that he wanted to be God. He was very deceptive and took a third of the angels with him in his rebellion, these angels are now called demons. But instead of getting more they got less (another symptom of sin) God created Adam and Eve and loved them very much, He told them they could have all they wanted to eat in the garden except for only one tree and if they ate from it they would die, because separation from God's life-giving Spirit brings death. He wanted them to choose to obey Him so they would continue in fellowship and He was teaching them things as a Father would his children. If He was all into rules, HE would have given them more than one. God is interested in relationships, not robots. The obedience of not eating from ONE tree showed God that they wanted a relationship with Him also. If you want to know more read Genesis in the Bible and it will tell you the whole Truth, if you are a sincere seeker of the Truth God promises that you will find Him. If you want to know more about Jesus read the book of John in the Bible (it is in the New Testament, you can also find it in blueletter Bible on the internet), John was an eyewitness of Jesus who came to save us because of Adam and Eve's choice to disobey and eat from that one tree (this is when sin was found in them also and they began to have the same mindset as the devil and they had children and here we are today, same seeds) Jesus came to pay the price and give us another Seed, an incorruptible Seed and by believing in Jesus as your personal Savior you will receive the Holy Spirit. Another chance for a life giving Spirit that was lost in the garden and this brings you back to fellowship with God!!! It is by grace (undeserved favor) But you cannot experience a relationship through someone else, you have to experience it yourself, You and God alone but if you seek Him you will be found by Him. He promised and He is not a liar, the devil is. Keep seeking and asking questions, I believe God is calling you like He did me. :-)
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