I want to be prepared for the major arguments made by Theists, but I'm not very strong on countering the 'Stalin+Mao were Atheists and killed more than anyone' argument. Do you have an article or reference document link you could share with me?
My current argument is based on Christopher Hitchen's argument. I hold him in the highest regard, but I don't think his arguments alone deal a sufficient blow to this attack. If someone has made a good argument on this forum in the past please direct me to it. Oh, and we can leave Hitler out of it. I'm ready for that rubbish argument. Thanks everyone.
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I found this to be a great read:
https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atroc...
It lists a bunch of fallacies that go with theist arguments that you can use to peel the layers off of them like an onion. However, It doesn't mention Mao so much. It raises you a Pol Pot though.
First of all Truett, the problem here is, did they/he commit those crimes in the name of Atheism? No, they didn't, did Stalin starve, persecute and kill millions of people for Atheism? No, everything is Political related.
Let's take 2 facts:
1. The Crusades;
2. Stalin's Regime.
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Pope Urban II declared the First Crusade on November 27, 1095, beseeching that all Christians must unite "in the name of God" to reclaim the Holy Lands. - Notice the thing here? Religion is being USED, as it was always a Tool of influence, and God being the masterpiece of manipulation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now Stalin, as a very Brutal and Dictatorial person, he wanted to carve his Image as "God" amongst the Russians, or as a "Idol to worship", but with Religion existing, he could have no chance in replacing God without killing it, thus killing his Worshipers. Trust me, when Stalin died, in Communist Albania (my Country), there was a Ceremony to honor him, where even the DICTATOR himself (Enver Hoxha) knelt in-front of his Statue, along with everyone present in the square of Tirana (Capital City). That shows how much he wanted to become a "god" in communist ruled Countries.
The idea that Stalin was an Atheist (which I would consider a little bit irrational since he wanted himself instated as a God) only came because he persecuted Religious people. Because if God "existed" in the mentality of the Russians, he would've never been able to have a complete Control of the masses and country. Else, who would disobey a "god" (expect us)?
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There's more information about this, as related to the comment of SecularSonOfABiscuitEater.
Thanks SecularSOB and Endri. I appreciate these ideas. My position is in line with both of yours, but I've not been as succint as an effective interlocutor should be. These ideas help.
1) Stalin nor Mao ever killed in the name of atheism.
2) They never singled out specific religious groups to annihilate because of their religion.
3) Stalin wasn't an atheist, he was a catholic. He almost became a priest.
4) The purge was more about Stalin's paranoia and concentration of power. He killed 10 times as many atheists as anyone else. The criteria for Stalin's murders was a perceived threat to his authority and nothing else.
5) The same goes for Mao. Mao was an atheist, but he murdered people based on a threat to his power, not because they were not an atheist.
6) These murders are completely different than the crusades or even the genocides in the new world. People were murdered in the name of the christian god for not converting or being pagans.
Thanks a million, Mykcroft4. These bullet-point type arguments are immediately useful to me.
I'm by no means an expert on Stalin, but from what I've read you will have great difficulties in giving any valid support for point 3, that Stalin was a Catholic.
First, he was raised into Georgian Orthodox teachings, not Catholic.
Second, he denounced religion.
Third, he pushed anti-religious propaganda.
In my view, it's a mistake to claim he was a Christian at all, since that will only give the counterpart something to attack and derail the conversation with.
Please note that I'm not advocating for the theist side of the argument here. The point is still that Stalin (or any of the others) did not kill a single person in the name of "no god". He killed for political power.
Blaming atheists for those killed by Mao or Stalin is like blaming Christians for those killed by the czars in their brutal conquests. The czar killed to expand and safeguard imperial power, and many of his victims were Christians. Mao and Stalin killed in behalf of their communist utopias and to prop up their power base. Many of their victims were actually party leaders and good atheists. Their support of atheism (which couldn't be too extreme since the masses were deeply religious) was a secondary consideration based on the fact that in both societies the religious establishment was part of the ruling foundation.