All My co Workers are Christian.

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Cognostic's picture
All My co Workers are Christian.

Got in a discussion today with 3 co workers. Started a new job on the first. 2 were Church going Christians and one a "higher power believer." Topic: MORALITY.

Long story short: The theists wanted to know where morality came from. I cited evolution and the increased complexity of moral behavior from clans to tribes to small communities, city states and countries. Globally today, morality is Westernizing.
If we got it from god it would not be evolving. Many animals on the planet have systems of morality. You choose to get your moral influence from the bible. The Hindu has his texts. The Muslims theirs. You choose what is moral in your book to follow and you ignore the rest. Is slavery moral.

I got the ole, slavery in the Bible is not the same thing. WAIT!!! Is it ever moral for one human being to own another human being. I god diversion. WAIT! It is a simple yes or no question. Broken record approach. Is it ever moral for one human being to own another human being. They actually said, "NO." (We actually looked up Exodus 21 while doing this.)

So why didn't god put it in a commandment? Surely he could. He is all powerful after all. Is it ever moral to kill a person following a different religion than yours? I actually got another "NO!" Yet the bible says "Do not suffer a witch to live." It advocates the killing of witches and the damning if not killing of homosexuals. If a male child talks back to his parents he is to be taken before the elders and then to the edge of town where he is stoned to death.

But times were different.... comes the Christian plea.

So what! God is never changing. The question is. IS IT MORAL? Of course there is attempt at excuse. WAIT!! It is a yes or no question. Is it moral! I got silence and moved on.

You choose your morality. You choose to get it from selecting passages from your book and ignoring other passages. Muslims do the same thing. Hindus do the same thing. Every religion and belief system does the same thing. The question is, how do we tell what is really moral. How do we actually tell moral behavior form behavior that is immoral? Do we really just trust everything in a book. Of course not.

Three Christians and an atheist are in a life raft and there are only enough rations for three people. Who will we throw overboard? The atheist of course. This is where biblical morality takes us. Is it moral?

I was actually told. Christians would not do that.

I told him "History does not support your claim." He actually agreed! Ha ha ha ha ha

I then went on, you choose your morality just as I choose mine. I just don't rely on ancient books. I look to results. I look to how I want to live as a human being and how I want to be treated and then I treat others accordingly. When a person violates the moral behavior of the group, just like our tribal ancestors we ban them from the group, lock them away, or execute them.
Now days there are less and less executions as we, as a culture, are deeming them as cruel punishments. Your morality from God is a choice you make and nothing more. Further, you only follow the moral dictates of the bible that you agree with.

Okay, with that said, I softened the blow. Neither secular morality or religious dictated morality can deal well with moral dilemmas. There are no clear dictates in secular morality but there are in your theology and you choose not to follow them because you are more moral than your god. We are all making choices and morality comes from our interactions with the world around us.

This was a fast recap. The ebb and flow is obviously not the same in writing. Suffice to say... not a single point claimed was sustained by the theists. And as much as they wriggled and twisted, facts seemed to win out the day.

We agreed to talk again but should have a clearly stated topic so as to stay on topic. I think I will recommend a debate format. 3 min, 3 min, rebuttal, rebuttal, conclusion, conclusion. That will keep us from talking over one another. The guy gave all the typical Christian responses to everything. EASY PEASY.

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LogicFTW's picture
For any atheist regular of AR

For any atheist regular of AR, I think will typically run circles around your typical theist apologist, in real world encounters. If anything we have way, way! more practice. We seen all the arguments, the more popular ones, dozens of times each.

At least for me, I since been able to recognize whichever type of argument they are trying to use, almost instantly, and have a short but effective rebuttal, where I can respond to their points in a few seconds, and leave plenty of time to further my side of things. Useful skill, course I rarely let myself get drawn into these sort of debates/arguments in real life.

David Killens's picture
Like LogicFTW, being here has

Like LogicFTW, being here has allowed me many more tools and knowledge. I just wish I was capable of the witty and cutting remarks Hitchens was famous for.

Cognostic, I was about to shame you for picking on those defenseless theists. But if they open their mouths, then they are fair game. It is very simple. If you want to live in your fantasy world, then don't preach to others.

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: OP

@Cog Re: OP

Would love to have been standing on the sideline watching that... lol... Sounds very much like my discussions with the JW's. Fun-fun-fun!... *big grin*...

And, yep, just like David and Logic, I have learned many thing here on the AR that have given me numerous tools and a tremendous amount of confidence to use whenever I find myself involved in religious discussions. And the best part for me is that it allows me to stay calm and and cool so that I can better enjoy watching the other parties wiggle, squirm, and sweat as they attempt to rationalize their beliefs... *chuckle*...

Whitefire13's picture
@Cog “ Started a new job on

@Cog “ Started a new job on the first.“

Holy fuck Cog - shouldn’t you be bringing in donuts first?!?! You’re the new guy ;)

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: Cog and

@Whitefire Re: Cog and donuts

I think Cog might be using a page from the church "free-meal-for-the-homeless" playbook. Sure, he brought donuts to be given to his coworkers for free. But they must first have a religious discussion with him before being allowed to get one... lol...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

I suppose destroying their fragile lives is a slight improvement on greeting your flat mates/co workers with poo flinging, screaming and jumping up down along with simulated intercourse to show dominance of the group...or have you mellowed?

Have you told them about the banana skin on the toilet door yet? That should ruin their idea of morality...and hygiene....

Cognostic's picture
Today he accused me of

Today he accused me of presuppositions: Enter the gumball analogy. I have never said your god does not exist. I am at the zero point. I am asking you for evidence. "That's your presupposition, you want evidence." So please explain this shit and how you profess to know what you know without it? -- YOU KNOW WHAT CAME NEXT??? The Cosmological Argument. God exists in a timeless, space-less contradictory bullshit environment that somehow exists without time or space. HOLY SHIT! God of the Gaps fallacy. Conversation ended after that as other people came into the room.

He brought up the subject because after our last conversation, he said he thought about something on the bus on his way home. I suppose he will think of something new on the bus on his way home this evening.... I THINK I'M READY!! lol

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Yeh, theists seem to think we

Yeh, theists seem to think we live in a vacuum and have never ever experienced such cogent and real arguments for a god.

Nyarlathotep's picture
I love how we have a theist

I love how we have a theist in the debate section arguing that the bible is the literal truth; and we have another accusing us of taking it too literally.

David Killens's picture
@ Cognostic

@ Cognostic

Maybe we should make up a bingo card and enter the many failed fallacies, and see who wins. But I need more topics to fill out my card.

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Cognostic's picture
I'm gonna add that to my

I'm gonna add that to my Church BINGO Card. An Apologists BINGO card. Great idea.

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Nyarlathotep's picture
Maybe add:

From my experiences here at AR, maybe you could use:

Appealing to cultural relativism, then denying it.

Or maybe that won't fit in a square.

/e: Oh some more:

All doesn't mean all.

Slavery isn't slavery.

I̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶t̶:̶ claiming god doesn't change AND giving an example of god changing.

cranky47's picture
@Nyarlathotep.

@Nyarlathotep.

Whilst at my Catholic boys school, the good brothers had a mantra used for any religious question to hard for them; "Oh, that's a mystery of the faith, we just believe it" (truly,I swear )

They had a go at the question of animal suffering ; "Oh, animals don't suffer in the same way we do" (IE it their suffering is 'less than')

Another ageless apologist trick is to declare a biblical passage doesn't mean what it says. Or that one is using the wrong biblical translation. JW's love that one.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cranky

@ Cranky

Every theist on these pages love these: Another ageless apologist trick is to declare a biblical passage doesn't mean what it says. Or that one is using the wrong biblical translation. JW's love that one

Cognostic's picture
@Old Man: "A biblical

@Old Man: "A biblical passage does not mean what it says."

Then they add a bunch of shit to it, tell me that I'm taking it out of context, and then tell me that I am adding my presuppositions to it.
WTF!!!

cranky47's picture
@ Cognostic

@ Cognostic

"Then they add a bunch of shit to it, tell me that I'm taking it out of context, and then tell me that I am adding my presuppositions to it.
WTF!!!

Exactamundo.

That practice has resulted its very own subspecies of human parasite, called 'priests.'

AND not to mention an entire industry based on the 'disciplines' of theology, apologetics, biblical hermeneutics and exegesis.

Geez, I wish we had emoticons. I would love to have cranky old man waving his walking stick, and turning an interesting shade of puce.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Carnky

@ Carnky

I do wave my ( varied collection of, but only one at a time) stick, but I have yet to turn puce. Scarlet occasionally, but Puce? no it would clash with my underwear. (something Cog has never experienced.)

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