Got in a discussion today with 3 co workers. Started a new job on the first. 2 were Church going Christians and one a "higher power believer." Topic: MORALITY.
Long story short: The theists wanted to know where morality came from. I cited evolution and the increased complexity of moral behavior from clans to tribes to small communities, city states and countries. Globally today, morality is Westernizing.
If we got it from god it would not be evolving. Many animals on the planet have systems of morality. You choose to get your moral influence from the bible. The Hindu has his texts. The Muslims theirs. You choose what is moral in your book to follow and you ignore the rest. Is slavery moral.
I got the ole, slavery in the Bible is not the same thing. WAIT!!! Is it ever moral for one human being to own another human being. I god diversion. WAIT! It is a simple yes or no question. Broken record approach. Is it ever moral for one human being to own another human being. They actually said, "NO." (We actually looked up Exodus 21 while doing this.)
So why didn't god put it in a commandment? Surely he could. He is all powerful after all. Is it ever moral to kill a person following a different religion than yours? I actually got another "NO!" Yet the bible says "Do not suffer a witch to live." It advocates the killing of witches and the damning if not killing of homosexuals. If a male child talks back to his parents he is to be taken before the elders and then to the edge of town where he is stoned to death.
But times were different.... comes the Christian plea.
So what! God is never changing. The question is. IS IT MORAL? Of course there is attempt at excuse. WAIT!! It is a yes or no question. Is it moral! I got silence and moved on.
You choose your morality. You choose to get it from selecting passages from your book and ignoring other passages. Muslims do the same thing. Hindus do the same thing. Every religion and belief system does the same thing. The question is, how do we tell what is really moral. How do we actually tell moral behavior form behavior that is immoral? Do we really just trust everything in a book. Of course not.
Three Christians and an atheist are in a life raft and there are only enough rations for three people. Who will we throw overboard? The atheist of course. This is where biblical morality takes us. Is it moral?
I was actually told. Christians would not do that.
I told him "History does not support your claim." He actually agreed! Ha ha ha ha ha
I then went on, you choose your morality just as I choose mine. I just don't rely on ancient books. I look to results. I look to how I want to live as a human being and how I want to be treated and then I treat others accordingly. When a person violates the moral behavior of the group, just like our tribal ancestors we ban them from the group, lock them away, or execute them.
Now days there are less and less executions as we, as a culture, are deeming them as cruel punishments. Your morality from God is a choice you make and nothing more. Further, you only follow the moral dictates of the bible that you agree with.
Okay, with that said, I softened the blow. Neither secular morality or religious dictated morality can deal well with moral dilemmas. There are no clear dictates in secular morality but there are in your theology and you choose not to follow them because you are more moral than your god. We are all making choices and morality comes from our interactions with the world around us.
This was a fast recap. The ebb and flow is obviously not the same in writing. Suffice to say... not a single point claimed was sustained by the theists. And as much as they wriggled and twisted, facts seemed to win out the day.
We agreed to talk again but should have a clearly stated topic so as to stay on topic. I think I will recommend a debate format. 3 min, 3 min, rebuttal, rebuttal, conclusion, conclusion. That will keep us from talking over one another. The guy gave all the typical Christian responses to everything. EASY PEASY.
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