I noticed multiple Ex-Muslims I know still fast during Ramadan just cuz they're used to it.
something I don't get tbh as an Ex-Muslim myself. It's surely a factor when u are in a Muslim home & country like Egypt here. but still, I can't wrap my head around it much.
I never overthought this till yesterday when my girlfriend almost fainted yet still refused to eat or drink. when I ask her what's the point anyway, her exact reply was "That's something I am used to and I won't let it go".
so I was curious. do you know anyone that after ditching religion still does a specific ritual of any sort just cuz they're used to doing it? and why do u think that is?
(NB: I am talking about genuine desire to keep doing them not social pressure to appear you are)
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@Hogwarts
Not at all surprised.
Religious beliefs are an accident of birth for most people. Our religious beliefs and general world view are both learned pretty much before the age of seven. We absorb whatever adults tell us uncritically.
I think it was Aristotle who said "Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man" . Our most basic beliefs are almost impossible to remove completely. Some atheists I've run across remain ' cultural christians' or Muslims for example.
It's over 50 years since I parted company with the catholic church.Yet today I still feel uncomfortable about eating meat on Good Friday so generally don't. Nor have I discarded my basic value system, which includes not lying, stealing nor harming others.
IMO deliberately flouting old rules is to miss the point.
How long since you stopped believing in Allah and Islam?. Do you still catch yourself saying" Inshallah"? These things may pass, or not. As long as they are not causing distress or harm to you or others, what's the problem ?
I don't know in which country you live. In some countries your biggest fear would be observant Muslims around you.
@Hogwarts: I'll utter an "Oh my God" now and again. I pretty much ignore the Christian Holidays, but then I am nowhere near them living in Korea. Until some street preacher approaches me or I see the JW standing in front of the Watch Tower stands, I just don't think about religion at all.
@cranky
it's Egypt. & it's been 10 years for me so far (that's almost half my age tho) and yes I still catch myself saying all such phrases but I kinda keep doing so on purpose mainly cuz of those "observant Muslims" so yeah u hit the nail on the head there.
.
I'd say my moral compass significantly changed tho. (well, part of that is surely cuz I was 11 yrs old then too)
but "not lying, stealing nor harming others." is completely not something I learned from religion anyway for that to be relevant here. especially the not harming others part cuz Islam isn't so fond of that concept.
"As long as they are not causing distress or harm to you or others, what's the problem ?"
it's not a problem at all, I was just curious. cuz I found it somehow funny how some ex-Muslim friends fast then have whiskey for their first meal XD
on a side note, The only perk of being an atheist in Egypt tho is that in Ramadan u can go rent summer vacation houses everywhere for like 20% of the price cuz no demand.
The only religious thing I had a hard time letting go of was prayer. I’ve mentioned it before. It took years and “logic” didn’t help - it was an emotional need.
Once I got to the source of that “need” - basically “trust myself”, I got over it pretty fast.
I did the “opposite” LOL - I love Christmas and Birthdays and started “celebrating” these pagan practises without guilt.
Edited to add: I don’t think I said “hi” to Hogwarts- so “hi!!!!”
@White: RE: The only religious thing I had a hard time letting go of was prayer.
So that's what you were doing. "Oh God! Oh God! Oh God!"
I still touch wood sometimes after expressing an intention or expectation. That's to appease the the tree-dwelling gods of my ancestors so they won't thwart my plans.
@Whitefire
Hi right back at you XD
and yeah, the more excuses to celebrate the better! Especially those celebrations that involve FOOD.
I'll always love Islam's "feast of sacrifice" cuz I am addicted to mutton ribs (don't try guilt-tripping me for the poor sheep tho, I feel bad enough).
I consume all forms of living matter - no guilt trips from me.
Edited to add: (don't try guilt-tripping me for the poor sheep tho, I feel bad enough)...why do you feel bad? There are worse things you could do to sheep...
@Whitefire
"I consume all forms of living matter - no guilt trips from me.'
I once thought the same, and then spent some time in China Quite liked frogs legs and even broccoli stems as a vegetable. Never came to enjoy stir fried chicken intestines , fish stomach or hundred year eggs. I also need to be very hungry to eat congee.
As for more mainstream foods; love ham and bacon, but feel a little guilty because pigs are such smart animals. But not guilty enough not to eat them.
Here we can buy kangaroo meat at the supermarket as steak and also as sausages and salami. It's very good meat and much leaner than beef. Can't bring myself to eat such a beautiful animal. Same goes for horse meat, which I had in Calabria. Also don't like the sweet taste.
I once read that the average person who cooks every day has a total of 12 main meals they prepare all the time. Don't know how is for others, but it's about right for me. I'm a lazy cook. Can't be bothered going to a lot of trouble just for myself
@Cognostic
I wish I could get far away enough from Egypt one day to relate to that.
@Algebe
Never did it, but now as I think about it. I should probably do that when those plans involve Rappelling off a tree. better not get these guys mad at me then, y'know.
@Whitefire
ehm ehm ....ALL forms?
(runs away before he's dinner)
on the Edit:
well...maybe this has something to do with seeing streets full of blood on a yearly basis when sheep are getting slaughtered in the streets? ...idk
tbh I hate overthinking the whole topic. I have always had the same thought about going vegetarian as I had about going on a diet (29 BMI here)....I always think I should do both. but I love food so much to even attempt either lol.
@Hogwarts “maybe this has something to do with seeing streets full of blood on a yearly basis when sheep are getting slaughtered in the streets? ...”
Lol. At least you get to see where your food comes from. In Canada we’ve “sanitized” this reality and packaged it up nice and neat.
@Whitefire
yeah here too. this street thingy only happens once a year in the feast of sacrifice. cuz according to Islam, you need to either slaughter yourself or be there while the butcher does it. so can't happen in their normal dedicated places.
I remember I was once in a suit and dress shoes and had to literally step in ankle-high blood to cross a street.
I get ur point of it being more authentic to see ur meat freshly "prepared" but I'd much rather not get THAT close to my dinner tbh lol
Damn - here I was imagining Egyptians slaughtering in the open streets daily ;)
I’m assuming it’s to get rid of/cover or absorb “sin” of some sort?
it's just celebrating that god almost made a prophet (Ibrahim) slaughter his son then -Jokes on them- he put a sheep in the son's place instead when he almost did it. I cringe every time I see ppl celebrate the concept that a guy almost literally slaughtered his innocent son because god and think how "Great" that man was to accept doing that!
Hogwarts gotcha... Do Muslims believe in “sin”
(assuming since it all starts at the beginning) and how do the cover this horrible monster unleashed upon mankind ;)
@whitefire
not sure what u mean by "sin" there. cuz the definition I know is just any action prohibited by religion.
@hogwarts ... I don’t know either.
That idea that Christians have that Jesus fixed. That idea Jews have/had that required animal sacrifice... that idea
Maybe Muslims don’t have any saving mechanism for “man’s fallen” condition.
Doesn’t matter to me. No one has found the “sin” gene (as far as I’m aware) ...I was just curious. If I get curious enough, I might google it...
@Whitefire
oh that one, nope in Islam sin isn't carried in genes like that.
@Whitefire13
"Lol. At least you get to see where your food comes from. In Canada we’ve “sanitized” this reality and packaged it up nice and neat."
Same here.
Australia sends a lot of live sheep to the Middle East. Every now and then there are vociferous complaints agains live exports because of the way the animals are slaughtered .
I don't know how meat is killed to be certified halal.
Kosher rules are mean to reduce animal suffering, but are mainly to do with making sure all blood is drained from the carcass. The taste is quite different.
I honestly don't know, never was willing to stand and watch one tbh.
but I think it's pretty similar yeah, (physically ofc nvm the ritual talk nonsense)
"the animal's throat must be cut by a sharp knife severing the carotid artery, jugular vein, and windpipe in a single swipe."
never knew if this makes it taste any different tho (never had any non-halal meat.). better or worse in ur opinion?
@Hogwarts
"never knew if this makes it taste any different tho (never had any non-halal meat.). better or worse in ur opinion?"
Well, I've eaten halal meat without realising it, and didn't notice anything unsual, .
First time was at a Muslim wedding, in Malaysia in 1969,. Can still taste it; fantastic curried water buffalo.
Last time was again in Malaysia, in Kuala Lumpur in 2000. Staying at a five star hotel. The bacon tasted a bit strange, so I asked about it . It was turkey bacon. It tasted OK just different. I was told that by law, all food served in hotels in Malaysia must be halal. Didn't notice anything unusual about any other food I had there.
Have eaten kosher food once, at a kosher deli in New York. Pastrami on rye sandwich .About a foot thick and fantastic,
@cranky47
ok, this makes me feel better, so not missing out on better meat there much.
I've never had bacon tho :'( .. and every time I ask my Christian acquaintances I somehow never manage to get to a pork butcher (or whatever you'd call that) . still looking lol.
I often engage in certian religious rituals for similar reasons attached to going to magic shows, or getting caught up in a fantasy movie, or enjoying a good novel.
Things like Passover, Yom Kippur, and so on give me a sense of connectedness to my culture. It is a way of acknowledging the struggles and adversity that led to my existence on this planet in this time and place.
I respect other peoples' beliefs even when I think they're wrong, and keeping the rituals of Passover, Chanukka, Rosh Hashanna, and Yom Kippur is a way of showing respect for cultural background.
None of this is inconsistant with atheism, and I don't see it as hypocritical.
got your point, and yeah none of this is inconsistent with atheism, true.
However, I personally don't really respect everyone's beliefs so to speak (well, especially those that say that an ex-Muslim like me gotta be killed, LOL).
I respect the people and their right to hold them (minus the killing me part) but that's another story.
Also, I straight up hate my "cultural background " so I cannot relate there either, sadly.
@Hogwarts
"Also, I straight up hate my "cultural background " so I cannot relate there either, sadly."
Do you mean your ethnicity? Or being brought up in the Islamic tradition?
Regardless, I'm truly sorry to learn that
I was raised Irish Catholic. The most superstitious, bigoted, pig ignorant and hateful form of a pernicious faith.
Today, it is with some pride that I describe myself as "Australian by birth, Irish-Celt by ethnicity" (on both sides of my family.
I'm pretty ignorant about modern Egyptian culture. However, I do know a bit about Islamic culture and history. I lived in a Muslim country, and studied aspect of islam at university. I have an ongoing interest .
I find the history of Islam fascinating and think it. would be a wonderful heritage to have..
@cranky
I don't think I got brought up in the Islamic tradition much so to speak. actually, AFTER I became atheist I realized my dad is atheist too lol. so that wasn't the problem much.
I don't care about heritage much tbh. what's gone is gone. I care about the society I live in and let me tell you, Egyptian culture is shit. some of it cuz of Islam, some of it taking Islam as an excuse to be shit and some just plain shit because why not I guess?....
Moral compass, rights, attitude,... everything. I just hate it.
and every day I find more reasons to hate it tbh.
nowadays I can't even trust a psychiatrist cuz some of the ones I went to literally said that they should "treat my atheism" before treating my bipolar disorder.....and yes.....those are physicians with PhDs (and sometimes professors even)!
@Hogwarts
"nowadays I can't even trust a psychiatrist cuz some of the ones I went to literally said that they should "treat my atheism" before treating my bipolar disorder.....and yes.....those are physicians with PhDs (and sometimes professors even)!"
First reaction: ''Pickle me grandmother!' How bloody dare they!
Then I had a little think. As far as I'm aware there's no rule which says a psychiatrist must be atheist. BUT I have never heard of atheism being treated as an illness. I'm sure there are many dogmatic believers who think so, just as many still believe homosexuality is a perversion
Carl Jung was a pioneer of modern psychiatry and a contemporary of Freud. (they didn't get on) . In his autobiography ,"Memories Dreams and Reflections" , he writes of his experience with poltergeists. (literally 'noisy spirits) Jung invented the terms 'racial archetypes' and 'synchronicity' (meaningful coincidence)
Being a psychiatrist or psychologist is no guarantee of either brains nor sanity. I've known a fews shrinks as a patient, and some psychologists through work. Some were away with the fairies. That led me to the opinion that perhaps some people become psychiatrists or psychologists to solve their own problems.
It took me over 30 years to find a shrink who really helped me. The others just kept me medicated so I could function.The last one came up with a cocktail of drugs which keep me stable and helped me make significant changes. So perhaps keep trying with shrinks if you still feel you need some help.
You might find it helpful to consider a psychologist who specialises in cognitive therapy.
You mentioned hated your background/heritage/ culture. Don't quite understand what you meant. I'm interested in what you meant and your reasons for hating it, if that's not too intrusive a question
@cranky
you're right. However, educated a person gets. when it comes to religion they can throw all the science they learned out the window. it's really sad tbh
About cognitive therapy, as far as I remember there were only one guy and his wife in my city that specialized in that. Had a fight with the wife cuz she demanded a parent's contact info or else wouldn't start the session (I was over 20....not 5 or sth....) So I just left.
also wow 30 years! I am glad you reached a stable point at the end! I am not even at the "could function" point yet and was starting to lose hope.
So, thanks for that bit of hope you just gave me!
"You mentioned hated your background/heritage/ culture"
ok, so I'll try to make this point clearer cuz terminology can get vague.
Nevermind any history. I hate how most people in this country are in the 21 yrs I have been alive. I am sure no country is perfect and the shit here is surely not unique to us. but that's just my opinion abt it.
some random reasons off the top of my head:
- Egyptians are extremely (although usually not openly) racist.:
When it comes to religions, you basically have a Muslim majority and a Christian minority. Both get taught from a young age that the others are inferior and should be looked down upon and treated badly. at the same time, both wear a cute innocent mask and no one admits this. you can only make sure of such stuff when u are an atheist and have friends in both groups!
People from less rich countries (especially our African neighbors) are usually looked down upon. while westerners & Europeans are usually respected. (respected, not loved tho cuz a huge % of Egyptians hate the US for example cuz usually the answer to any shit we're in is a conspiracy theory involving the US)
even between cities, the majority got really racist views towards ppl from other parts of the countries.
- Corruption is the norm.
In every step of the government hierarchy. to get anything u want (rightfully or not) u need to either "know someone" or give a bribe.
and I am not saying it's "common"...I am saying it's THE norm.....so lower-class ppl are super out of luck when it comes to getting anything done or any right claimed.
-Women are practically seen as sex toys. again that's something u never hear straightforwardly but everything about what they think and how they act. about how ppl think of marriages. of a large % of relationships.& about women in general.
a woman isn't even allowed to do many simple things alone (or without a family member) including renting a hotel room in most places!
-Everyone sticks their nose in ur business.
if a guy insults / beats up his wife/ daughter/ sister in the street ppl would pretty much cheer for him cuz this means he's "a man"
if that same guy hugged or -god forbid- kissed his SO in the street he'll get anywhere from ppl annoying him to getting arrested and everything in between. ...some months ago there was a guy and his fiance who both get kicked outta their universities cuz he hugged her in public...
(here is the funny part) if a guy sexually harrases a girl in that same street usually ppl keep pushing the girl to "let it go" or purposefully testify against her to "not ruin the poor guy's future"
do u realize how fucked up it is that in many places here, a guy would literally be in a much better position socially if he sexually harrassed a random girl compared to hugging his gf?
I can go on stating stuff for ages but It gets annoying the more think about it so that's enough I guess.
oh and that's not even from an atheist's point of view yet. living with a religious mask outta fear is not fun.... I can in no way be comfortable around ppl who I know would love to see me dead or suffering if they knew my views.
Hogwarts ...holy, holy fuck...fuck,
Jesus fuckin Christ ——— sshhhhhittttt. ...
Wow. I just melted a snowflake for calling me a “chick”! ...in context it was more than that BUT fuck!!!
In Canada we have some issues...I don’t think it’s possible to be anywhere in the world without some ...I certainly hope given time, your country “chills” out a bit.
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