The Bible

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Mitch's picture
While I think the Bible is an

While I think the Bible is an important component of modern faith, and arguably a very important historical text, I don't know that the Bible is always the target of greatest value when counteracting religion.

Understanding the context of the book, its role in history, and its origin, are all pursuits useful for dispelling religion. Although, deciphering (and interpreting) ancient texts are not the ONLY pursuit of value; philosophical debate, scientific study of the natural world, and understanding of human nature, all play a critical role in the atheist perspective as well.

I think it is possible to over-focus on the texts, and lose people in the detail of a discussion they are not interested in. Instead, one could identify the value in religion for each individual, and challenge them on their particular approach. One size does not fit all.

I advocate a people-first philosophy.

D_Trimijopulos's picture
“I think it is possible to

“I think it is possible to over-focus on the texts, and lose people in the detail of a discussion they are not interested in.”

I somehow missed your post of the 28th where you state your opinion of the Bible.
You know, as regards the Bible there is a very important difference between Greek speaking people and the rest of the world. To us the Bible consists of two entirely different texts: an older one written in Hebrew and a younger one written in Greek. We also have in Greek the oldest translation of the Hebrew text (Septuagint) and although we can read the entire collection in Greek we never mix the two.
I very rarely discuss the Christian literature because I regard it pure theological work, pure fiction, and the only points of interests in there are the mythological motifs that the writers had to preserve in order not to contradict age old belief of the people (the gods were born into caves, for example). You also seem not to make a distinction between the two.

Anyway, “to over-focus on texts” I understand as “to over-focus on knowledge”.
As regards people who are not interested in a discussion of the texts, they simply do not take part in a discussion of the texts.

“You have not been able to prove any claims made in the bible concerning god and etc”

On the contrary, I can present enough evidence to persuade you that the description of the God in the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) is a correct one because the God was actually a criminal person, exactly as described.
You have knowledge of the Bible but you failed to ask questions and look for the answers. You understand that various writers had access to the texts and that they used the texts to suit their own purposes but still you wrote: “So with all of this, I'm not going to give that book any authority over my life.” Who is asking believers to give to the Bible authority over their lives? The ancient authors of the Bible or the modern theologians?

The Bible, the Hebrew Bible, contradicts theology. There is, of course, plenty of theological nonsense in there but that is something expected from scriptures used by the clergy. The passages written by obviously atheist scholars are the ones of value because they were written at a time that the ancient Greeks were still recording their Homeric fairy tales and had no real interest in their own traditions and history as the Israelite scholars did.
Zeus was transformed into rain in order to rape the imprisoned Danae (legend turned into fairy tale).
Yahweh attacked Moses to kill him when he suspected that Zipporah’s child had been fathered by Moses and not by himself on raping Zipporah (legend retaining its crude form).

“I advocate a people-first philosophy.”

By telling the people the truth or by having them sleeping peacefully sunk into lies?

Mitch's picture
Right, so what I think you're

Right, so what I think you're saying is that there are many translations of the Bible (Where 'Bible' means the original, Hebrew text), some with greater theological interference than others. This is an important distinction, because the Hebrew Bible - in its original interpretation - has much less in the way of theological embellishments. Theological embellishments, which only exist to advance the enterprise of organised religion.

So then, true atheist would center the conversation around the original Hebrew text, and essentially invalidate all the theological meddling that followed. From this vantage point, it is much more realistic to persuade people that god was - in fact - a person. All that would be needed from here is elbow grease.

Contrast that to what I'm saying: people interpret, internalize, and understand 'god' in a wide variety of ways. It's possible to find the conversation of most value to an individual, and challenge the person on that premise, instead of working tirelessly from Euhemeristic values - and a professorial understanding of ancient text (Knowledge I, regretfully, do not possess). I suggest working smart, and from our individual strengths.

I can see that you deeply value truth, clarity, and fairness. What is your position on versatility?

D_Trimijopulos's picture
“Contrast that to what I'm

“Contrast that to what I'm saying: people interpret, internalize, and understand 'god' in a wide variety of ways.”

They surely do!
Yet, they are haunted by the realization that the idea of God is not of their own conception. They only embellished the image of the God they inherited and… what if the original idea was a lie or a hoax?
They always go back looking for the roots of religion in order to pacify their doubts.

“What is your position on versatility?”

Versatility in the use of what? A hoax?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mitch - "Where 'Bible' means

Mitch - "Where 'Bible' means the original, Hebrew text"

Mitch - "true atheist would center the conversation around the original Hebrew text"

There is no such animal.

D_Trimijopulos's picture
“There is no such animal.”

“There is no such animal.”

There is! “Thank God”, there is! :)
The proof that the lion (such an animal it is) exists is the Oral Torah which was indispensable in order for the written text to be understood.
Here is a demonstration of the merit of the Oral Torah (which was eventually written down and comprised what is known as the Talmud).

We read in Ezekiel:

And you my flock, the flock of my pasture, ARE MEN (adam), and I am your God, says the Lord God. (Ez. 34:31)

The phrase “are men” does not exist in the Septuagint:

πρόβατά μου καὶ πρόβατα ποιμνίου μού ἐστε (missing words) καὶ ἐγὼ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὑμῶν λέγει κύριος κύριος

What does Ezekiel mean by “you, my flock, are men” which the sages that made the translation into Greekl chose to ignore?

The answer is found in the Talmud. Baba Mezia 114b reads:

He replied: Has the Master not studied the laws of purity? For it has been taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai said: The graves of the Gentiles do not defile, for it is written, AND YE MY FLOCK, THE FLOCK OF MY PASTURES, ARE MEN; ONLY YE ARE DESIGNATED 'MEN'. — He replied: I cannot even adequately study the four [orders]; can I then study six?

“Only ye are designated men” means that the others, those who do not belong to the God’s flock ARE NOT REGARDED MEN?

Passage 255-L of the 1855 (Warsaw) edition of the book "Midrash Talpiyyot" by Elijah ben Solomon Abraham ha-kohen is said to read as follows (I have not been able to find the book in English).

Ouote
Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.
Unquote

The passage appears to be impressive but only to those who have never studied ancient texts. According to the Egyptian Funerary Texts the gods were killing those humans they considered animals.

Elijah ben Solomon was writing in the 18th century and had no means to know what was written in the ancient Egyptian texts. The only means for such information to have survived so late is to have been transmitted orally.

Now, as regards Passage 255-L of the 1855 (Warsaw) edition of the book "Midrash Talpiyyot", I have spoken with Israelite persons and they never said to me that there is no such passage, They simply say that the Midrash is not an official text or something similar.

In the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible, the real story of the gods has been recorded. The story appears to be either the story of the ancient Israelites or the story of the monotheistic God Yahweh, who are both described as criminal persons! Why is that? Because the gods are the Israelites themselves. That is what the Tanakh was written for, to inform the future generations of the Israelites of their history, but, as it has been shown above, it could not be done by writing in open language so they did it by conveying the vital information orally.

Yes, the Tanakh is an animal, a ferocious animal that could devour Judaism and every religion on earth, if ever the atheist scholars manage to wake up. :-D

Nyarlathotep's picture
the wheels on the conspiracy

the wheels on the conspiracy go round and round...

D_Trimijopulos's picture
>> Nyarlathotep.

>> Nyarlathotep.
You were shown that the animal exists. In others words, you were shown that the Tanakh is not just theological nonsense or the writings of primitive goat-herders, as your ignorant (or dishonest) agnostic mentors preach.
So, as long as the animal exists you are a sucker, and since you cannot bring yourself to admit that fact, you resort to the conspiracy alibi. :)

Would you expect an Oxford professor to tell you that the gods (the Elohim) were actually the ancient Israelites themselves? Of course not!
Use your common sense! According to most legends the gods killed the Giants. Only two people groups admit that they killed the Giants themselves: the North American Indians and the Israelites (as far as I know). Yet neither gods nor Giants ever existed, these were just appellations used for common people: victimizers (gods) and victims (Giants).

You are living on a religion dominated planet. Your beloved academy (read science) is as guilty as the bishops around the Archbishop. :-D

Nyarlathotep's picture
The original Hebrew texts do

The original Hebrew texts do not exist. No matter how much you flap your gums, you have never seen them, and you never will.

D_Trimijopulos's picture
What original texts?

What original texts?
Those available are more than enough to show what they are worth for.
You did not dare comment on the passage of Ezekiel or the analysis thereof provided above.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dimitrios - What original

Dimitrios - What original texts?"

You know, the ones you just repeatedly assured us exist:

Mitch - "Where 'Bible' means the original, Hebrew text"
Nyarlathotep - "There is no such animal."

Dimitrios - "There is! “Thank God”, there is!"
Dimitrios - "You were shown that the animal exists."

D_Trimijopulos's picture
Mitch - "Where 'Bible' means

Mitch - "Where 'Bible' means the original, Hebrew text"
Nyarlathotep - "There is no such animal."

What do you mean by “original texts”? Those written originally, of which the recording commenced at approximately 700 BCE?
The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the texts in our possession are not significantly different from the older ones.

But what it is that you think that the “originals” contained that is missing from the contemporary ones? The original original ones they were not even texts, they were orally transmitted stories. The difference between the various editions of a given corpus of texts depends on the theological alterations and embellishments effected, otherwise the base, the oral stories, the oral traditions, are conveyed unaltered. For example: according to the folklore the gods created humans. The theologians have been altering the method of creation of humans by the gods for thousands of years and they will continue so doing. They never claimed that humans fell from heavens and they will never do.

I hope that we do have an understanding and that you do not mean the originals of the Christian literature.

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