does anyone else find the idea of heaven repulsive?

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Rebasack32's picture
does anyone else find the idea of heaven repulsive?

I grew up going to churches and sunday school etc.
I was given many versions of heaven, many of which after i was diagnosed with bi-polar at age 10
centered on heaven being a place where this wouldnt exist.
i would never be depressed sad angry etc in heaven, every emotion we classify as negative gone.
on top of this many included spending eternity praising/worshiping this god.
to me this says everything that has made me who i am is gone and im now forced
to spend eternity worshiping this god. why the hell would i want that?
i really dont get it.
yet my dad has made it clear that for him the idea of this life being all there is makes him feel life is pointless.
for me it means lie for today, not for death.

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boomer47's picture
@rebasack

@rebasack

OLD joke:

At a convent school.

Nun to a class of ten year olds "Hands up all those who want to go to heaven"

One child does not raise his hand

Nun; "Why James, don't you want to go to heaven?"

James ;" Not if that bunch are going"

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The idea of heaven you describe seems pretty primitive to me.. I've always had trouble understanding how anyone with an awareness greater than of a comatose chicken would find such a proposition appealing .

I stopped believing in heaven a few decades ago .Whilst I did believe I worked out my own notion of heaven which doesn't quite fit Catholic theology.

My version begins with the notion that time and space were created by god in the very beginning of the universe.(multiverse?). That after the end of days, time and space would again no longer exist, because they would be redundant. What would be left is a state of never ending 'now 'and constant bliss. ' There's a lot more, such as on the nature of the soul, but I won't bore you with it. .

These days my own half baked theological theories are as much use use as a bicycle is to a fish.

Mutorc S'yriah's picture
Do you mean: 'live for today,

Do you mean: 'live for today, not for death', Rebasack?

boomer47's picture
@Mutorc S'yriah

@Mutorc S'yriah

"Do you mean: 'live for today, not for death', Rebasack?"

Excellent point.

Seems to me that too many folks seem to ignore or don't know that Christianity is essentially a death cult .IE it promises a far better life after death. One reason it has always been attractive to the marginalised and the dispossessed.

--the afterlife was so attractive to early Christians that many deliberately sought martyrdom. It got so bad the church fathers put out a decree outlawing the seeking of martyrdom .After all, a dead sheep cannot be shorn more than once.

Hogwarts's picture
@cranky

@cranky
"After all, a dead sheep cannot be shorn more than once."

Great point. so u don't kill all ur sheep. but a dead sheep can be eaten, and sometimes that's more beneficial. hence blowing up some sheep from time to time.

boomer47's picture
@Hogwarts

@Hogwarts

"so u don't kill all ur sheep. but a dead sheep can be eaten, and sometimes that's more beneficial. hence blowing up some sheep from time to time."

Of course.

What eventually became monotheistic Judaism was invented by a group of middle eastern nomadic goat/sheep herders ca 3000 bce.. At that time, until today in some cultures, wealth was measured primarily by the sizeof one's flock or herd.--plus of course by the amount of gold worn by one's wives.

The Catholic church claims I think 2 billion members. It arrives that staggering number largely by never taking anyone off the membership list until they die. As far as I can tell, that number has been a fantasy probably from the enlightenment .

Here in Aunty Adelaide. Because of the reduction in young drongos joining the priesthood, it's now common for a priest to be forced to service several parishes. (no pun intended) I can't help but wonder when women will be accepted as priests and when priest will be permitted to marry. The celibacy of clergy is purely church policy, not holy writ. The pope can change it with the stroke of a pen, or pressing enter on a computer.

algebe's picture
I recall a story about a

I recall a story about a South American king captured by the Spanish. He was tied to a stake ready for burning but offered a reprieve and eternal life in heaven if he'd convert to Christianity. "Are there people like you in heaven?" he asked. When they replied "Yes", he told them to light the fire.

Hogwarts's picture
@Rebasack

@Rebasack
Bipolar here too, and I hate how many times I wished there was actually a god to pray the mental breakdowns over but...oh well...
If I play devil's (or God's?) advocate though for a sec there and assume there was such heaven. I think yeah some aspects about it are pretty cringeworthy to me. not having depression wouldn't be one of them though, to be honest.

On a side note..a bit irrelevant. but I stumbled upon multiple Muslim women that wanted their husbands to go to hell because they're jealous he'll get the 72 virgins if he went to heaven lol. I guess this whole concept of girls being a gift to guys is the root of why the culture here always thinks of women as sex toys!

Tin-Man's picture
As a kid I was always told

As a kid I was always told heaven is PERFECT. Everybody is always happy. No sorrow. No tears. United with loved ones. Streets of pure gold. Everybody always singing and praising God for all of eternity. Woooo-hoooo!!!

To say the least, there were a few things about that concept that bothered me and made very little sense. (And keep in mind, I was just a little kid.) For starters, what was the fascination with streets paved with gold??? Especially when I was being taught that Jesus said it is better to be poor than rich. Next, I would ask, "But what if somebody we love does not make it to heaven? How are we to be happy if we know they are burning in hell?" The typical answer to my question was, "Well, God makes us forget about them." (Seriously. I shit you not.) Obviously, that answer never settled well with me. Then there was the question of, "What else would we be doing other than singing to/about and praising God? How is that suppose to be fun and joyful?" (That particular question I kept to myself, by the way. Questions like that were not looked upon kindly.)

Anyway, I don't find the idea of heaven repulsive so much as I see it as being astoundingly ridiculous. More accurately, I cannot understand how any reasonably educated and rational adult can consider such an existence as being paradise. It boggles my mind sometimes.

boomer47's picture
@Tin-Man

@Tin-Man

"As a kid I was always told heaven is PERFECT"

Funny, now that you mention it. Brought up rabid Irish catlic, yet I can't recall a single description of heaven. I have vague recollection of some nasty descriptions of hell. I can remember one which described being in a fire which never ceased to burn, and one with something about a worm.

I CAN remember thinking "Bloody hell, don't like the sound of THAT! Don't want to go there!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

A bonus as I'm running early this morning:

First clip; Irish comedian Dave Allen on religion.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

Second clip; 'Old style country singer Iris Dement 'Let The mystery Be' . (check out the instruments)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80

LogicFTW's picture
I don't find the various

I don't find the various descriptions/definitions of "heaven" I have heard to be repulsive, (well maybe the: "eternally worshiping god" heaven ideas are repulsive.)

I do find them to be absurd.

Heaven is supposedly something you might go to after you "die." Ya know, the structures that let you process, "think", etc fall apart when the conditions to sustain the structures collapse.

Cognostic's picture
Sitting about all day,

Sitting about all day, worshiping, praying, playing a harp, singing praises. FUCK THAT SHIT! For all eternity? It would drive anyone insane.

algebe's picture
@Cognostic: It would drive

@Cognostic: It would drive anyone insane.

I think insanity is a requirement for entry.

Grinseed's picture
I'm struggling with the

I'm struggling with the boredom of this damn covid 19 lockdown...its got to be a taste of that eternity in heaven worshipping ol' Jealous and frankly I don t find it at all appealing.

LogicFTW's picture
Not sure which I would take,

Not sure which I would take, my current exhaustion or boredom?

I am currently leaning towards taking boredom. How much money is enough to be financially secure for me and my immediate family for life in a world economy ravaged by covid?

boomer47's picture
@Grinseed

@Grinseed

I"'m struggling with the boredom of this damn covid 19 lockdown.."

Me too.

YesterdayI went on line to look for recipes.Thinking of ANZAC biscuits, which I will dip in melted chocolate anda basic chocolate cake, .

The other day I tried to make honeycomb. It only has 3 ingredients; sugar ,golden syrup and bicarb of soda. Still managed to fuck it up though. It was edible but more a toffee than honeycomb, and it had no bulk, .

Today I put major in his harness, in the car strapped in (required by law here) and took him to a park for a walk .Can't be around the neighbourhood because he barks his tits off and will attack any dog he sees. Major is an 8kg Jack Russell with an attitude -----

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((00)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

OT Local news Melbourne 5 days ago, in case you hadn't heard about it:

Police stopped a man speeding on the highway in a Porsche. He was off his face on drugs. Police called for help to have his car impounded. A semi then ploughed into the police and Porsche at 110kmh. (max limit). Four police officers were killed and Porsche totalled.

Porsche driver took pictures of a dying police officer which he later posted on line, and left the scene. He surrendered to police next day and has been charge with a long list of charges.

As it also turned out, the truck driver was also off his face on drugs. He has been charged with 4 counts of culpable driving so far. .

With any luck both miscreants will be off our roads and in into our prisons for an appropriate amount of time .They way such things tend to work here, the Porsche driver might be looking at more time than the truckie. Although the truckie was also not fit to drive, HE didn't behave like a complete cunt after the accident .

So, at least 6 lives have been destroyed, and that's not counting the families of those involved.

algebe's picture
@Cranky47:

@Cranky47:
Unfortunately the entitled spoiled brat mortgage broker arsehole in the Porsche is probably only guilty of speeding and will get away with a hefty fine and license suspension. He'll also have the best legal representation to keep his sorry hide out of jail. Worse still, the police might even be liable for the damage to his Porsche, since they were in charge of it when it was damaged. How appalling that the last thing that officer saw before she died was the braying face of that jackal.

LogicFTW's picture
@Algebe & Cranky47:

@Algebe & Cranky47:
Also guilty of driving while obviously intoxicated. There should be a massive transfer of wealth from porsche driver to the victims families, plus some real jail time (not for long, but take away this guy's freedom for a few weeks.)

The truck driver likely was not rich and belligerent, but he should not be able to drive any vehicle for 1 year, and have to take a bunch of classes and drug tests to get his normal drivers licence back. (He should never drive a 80,000 pound truck at highway speeds ever again.) Truck driver should also see some jail time. He might as well gotten high and shot at the cops except shooting is probably a whole lot less effectively deadly then a giant truck going 100kph.

boomer47's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

"There should be a massive transfer of wealth from porsche driver to the victims families, plus some real jail time (not for long, but take away this guy's freedom for a few weeks.)"

Agree completely.

About financial penalties,and major fines generally. I've always thought fines should be based on gross income.

Gaol time. I had a mate who served year in Yatala for breaking. It was his opinion that unless a person is career criminal or rapes or murders or hurts children, maximum gaol time should be 3 months. His reason was that after three months the person becomes institutionalised. That home detention is probably more effective.

I've felt drink drivers should be put in gaol for no more than 28 days after their third offence. Plus,after say a third offence, they should be banned from driving for life. "You can't be trusted to drive safely on our roads? Fine, you may no longer drive on our roads, ever"

However, we're talking about justice. This seldom has anything to do with the way our legal system works. On those occasions when justice is done,it's more through happy accident than intent. A cynical attitude I know. Formed over a period of years as the result of asking several lawyers I came to know socially. That was the attitude of each one.

David Killens's picture
@ cranky47

@ cranky47

I once served two months in the can for writing a bad check. I deserved it.

I learned, and never did that shit again. Jail is not fun.

But being on the inside you really learn the jail culture. There was this one guy, he was just incarcerated. And there was his dad, also in the same jail. I was standing there when they met, and it was nothing special to them. Basically, they were petty career criminals, a few months out and stealing cars or shit, then six months to two years on the inside.

Junior learns from his dad, and is too dumb to change. And they were institutionalized, they spent more time in jail than out free, and to them, jail was their home address.

There were many like that, in and out for their entire lives.

boomer47's picture
@David

@David

"Junior learns from his dad, and is too dumb to change. And they were institutionalized, they spent more time in jail than out free, and to them, jail was their home address."

So sorry you had to spend time in gaol. You must have been terrified. That it was 'only' 2 months suggests the judge was trying to scare you straight. Seems to have worked.

My mate who did a year said the for the firsts six weeks his feet didn't touch the ground. His offence? Oh, he was a professional burglar. Cars and houses. Also very bright, that's why he wasn't caught for several years.. Got that message loud and clear and was never arrested again

A few years ago, I learned that a full 50% of inmates are illiterate in Yatala, our high security prison***.. They are your career petty criminals. In the main, of from low average IQ to Forest Gump.

***The oldest part of Yatala is a brownish nineteenth century horror built of local stone. I can see it from the deck at the back of my house. Also have to drive past it quite often. It's very creepy and apparently very over crowded

Nyarlathotep's picture
cranky47 - Porsche driver

cranky47 - Porsche driver took pictures of a dying police officer which he later posted on line, and left the scene.

He should have used his knee to put all of his weight on the dying police officer's neck; because apparently that isn't a crime.

Whitefire13's picture
Nyar...it’s absolutely

Nyar...it’s absolutely shameful and disgusting - not only his (the officer) behaviour but that of the dept!!! For fucks sake.

boomer47's picture
@Nyarlathotep

@Nyarlathotep

"He should have used his knee to put all of his weight on the dying police officer's neck; because apparently that isn't a crime."

Obviously not in the US , where race colours just about everything.

Here in OZ we get very miffed if you start killing our policemen.

dogalmighty's picture
Wait a sec folks, yes

Wait a sec folks, yes deplorable actions by the cops who are responsible for the health and safety of every handcuffed person in their charge....but lets apply some critical thought. Like, if his upper airway was being occluded by the cops knee, how was he able to carry on a conversation with the cops? Highly unlikely. My guess is a heart attack. An autopsy will tell. But at this point, it doesn't much matter.

Nyarlathotep's picture
I don't need an autopsy when

doG - Wait a sec folks...My guess is a heart attack. An autopsy will tell.

I don't need an autopsy when three people have been caught spending several minutes attacking a helpless person's airway, who then died. That is at least 3rd degree murder.

dogalmighty's picture
Just saying, you don't carry

Just saying, you don't carry on conversations with an occluded airway. As mentioned in my previous post, I am just guessing at things that initiate cessation in breathing...other than a knee on an upper airway, seeing conversation was not an issue for Mr. Floyd...not that it matters now...and not trying to deflect the responsibility of the police to provide health and safety for a handcuffed man in their charge.

CyberLN's picture
I’m not sure third degree is

I’m not sure third degree is appropriate. I think it should be at least second degree. The officer kept his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for minutes AFTER there was a report of no pulse. It seems he purposely ignored his duty as a first responder to a ‘no pulse’ situation. The officers who stood by and watched, knowing Mr. Floyd had no pulse are equally responsible for his death.

dogalmighty's picture
Agreed...their responsibility

Agreed...their responsibility for Mr. Floyd's care is most derelict.

Nyarlathotep's picture
doG - Like, if his upper

doG - Like, if his upper airway was being occluded by the cops knee, how was he able to carry on a conversation with the cops?

I take it you've never been choked by a cop before. They cut off your air periodically.

Your reference to it as a "conversation" is disturbing. What I saw was a man begging for his life, every time he managed to get a gasp of air...

dogalmighty's picture
I have been choked by someone

@nyar

I have been choked by someone in a not to dissimilar situation. I know that feeling very well. I know and was taught that particular take-down and restraint that was used on Mr. Floyd, and yes it can easily be used to restrict blood flow to the brain which is its main goal, and care is needed to not occlude a person's airway. One of the determinants for airway occlusion assessment, is ability to talk. Mr. Floyds rights were abused leading to his death...no question of that. There is question on weather his loss of consciousness was initiated by blood flow loss to the brain, occlusion of the airway, or some other means. That is exactly why post mortem examination is needed. I was just pointing out something you look for during restraint...I am not deflecting responsibility of the cops nor defending their actions directly resulting in Mr. Floyd's death. I am just as incensed at this happening, as you are nyar.

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